Will Islam survive ISIS murdering Christians?

[Mama Kidogo]

EWTN's Dr. Carroll made the statement that Billy Graham would have been burned at the stake in the RCC's dark ages - if he taught then - what he taught in the 20th century.


And Lateran IV calling for the extermination of heretics (see Fordham translation) -- is deemed to this very day "infallible".

So then the "loophole" that is left there - is not supposed to be noticed because "of course nobody would think to use it". So then why be so sensitive about protecting that open door? Why insist that it is still infallible?

in Christ,

Bob

Beats me. Why do you keep insisting it's infallible?The only thing I've read a Catholic say about it is that it's a dusty old piece of paper in a dusty old room. You're the only one wanting to hang onto it.
No piece of paper justifies sin. I don't care if it's notarized by Elvis.

 

[BobRyan]

Beats me. Why do you keep insisting it's infallible?The only thing I've read a Catholic say about it is that it's a dusty old piece of paper in a dusty old room.

"A catholic say"???

Try "an ecumenical council say".

And "laws made by ecumenical councils" are to this day said to be "infallible".

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By contrast - if all you are saying is "yeah that was the dark ages... Lateran IV was a huge mistake - we have moved past that" -- then you are making MY point.

Did you intend to do that?

Are you really that interested in catching the same flack from RCC posters by taking that position?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

The ISIS shames us all. Their Prophet was supposed to have written a covenant that declares protection for all Christians far and wide if they are of peace. Well at the same time one cannot trust the media wholly.

 

[Targaryen]

The ISIS shames us all. Their Prophet was supposed to have written a covenant that declares protection for all Christians far and wide if they are of peace. Well at the same time one cannot trust the media wholly.

It's the practise of any extremist that other points of view or faith patterns are against the will of whoever their concept of God or the divine is.

The bigger shame is really the moderate/liberal voice of Muslims being either afraid to speak up or unwilling to.

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

It's the practise of any extremist that other points of view or faith patterns are against the will of whoever their concept of God or the divine is.

The bigger shame is really the moderate/liberal voice of Muslims being either afraid to speak up or unwilling to.

(I'm not allowed to post in this section but this thread is in the wrong section)

Yes, in a way. The thing is we don't have a podium to speak up in the West. You see in the Muslim world people standing up against this abomination and the beastification of the name of the religion, but their voices don't spread out.

And also the roots of ISIS was from the resistance and opposition to the Syrian regime. It kinda spiralled out of what once was considered necessary. The problem with the Muslim youth in the west is their disillusionment and mistrust of the western media. They don't believe what is exclusive in western media so they fall prey to mistrust.

Well Muslims are nostalgic about the end of their caliphate but to attempt to reestablish it through violence is absurd. The system of a caliphate is what works for Muslims in their lands and it had worked for 1300+ years. Democracy is not a solution at all to Muslims and you can see how time and again tyrants seize power. Muslims love to form groups with a leader and to obey a leader - some may call it cult behaviour - but the system of the caliphate is the only solution for the unity and success in Muslim lands. But attempting to reestablish it without following the rules is unjust and wicked. They can't justify lesser evil for greater evil kind of doctrine. Absurd.

 

[Targaryen]

(I'm not allowed to post in this section but this thread is in the wrong section)

Yes, in a way. The thing is we don't have a podium to speak up in the West. You see in the Muslim world people standing up against this abomination and the beastification of the name of the religion, but their voices don't spread out.

But muslims do. They have mosques and teaching centres where the Koran and hadiths are taught and studied, the communities in the West are growing in number. the problem is, westerners generally misunderstand Islam cause of a few things.

First, while it's translated in English and other languages, in Islam it's actually forbidden to translate the Qu'rean into an understandable language. which is akin to the Biblical issues that led to the Protestant Refromation, as in Western Europe, the bible was not only in Latin, a dead language to many but no one person could own a copy of the Scriptures.

Second, there is to most non-Muslims a reluctance to speak out against fellow Muslims no matter how extreme their viewpoints can be. Either this is some commandment in the Qu'ran which would need to be addressed or it's a reluctance to speak against Sharia law where it is being applied and thus catching non-Muslims in a law situation that they don't understand.

Thirdly, there unlike in Christian understanding, which has shaped the West. There is little to no unified body of believers withing the Islamic system. Sunni,Shia are forms of Islam sure...but even those communities are split into smaller bodies that represent a small fraction of Muslims. I'm not suggesting enforcing polity on Islam when Islam requires no polity, but I'm suggesting that there needs to be a bigger body to speak up and out against extremism from within the guise of Islam.

And also the roots of ISIS was from the resistance and opposition to the Syrian regime. It kinda spiralled out of what once was considered necessary. The problem with the Muslim youth in the west is their disillusionment and mistrust of the western media. They don't believe what is exclusive in western media so they fall prey to mistrust.

Muslims aren't the only ones that distrust the media. But the Western media works in the principle that controversy creates interest, it distorts the message but when any body allows that type of sensationalism to guide them into inaction, they can't blame others for the mischaracterization. That's as true with Christians as it is with Muslims

Well Muslims are nostalgic about the end of their caliphate but to attempt to reestablish it through violence is absurd. The system of a caliphate is what works for Muslims in their lands and it had worked for 1300+ years. Democracy is not a solution at all to Muslims and you can see how time and again tyrants seize power. Muslims love to form groups with a leader and to obey a leader - some may call it cult behaviour - but the system of the caliphate is the only solution for the unity and success in Muslim lands. But attempting to reestablish it without following the rules is unjust and wicked. They can't justify lesser evil for greater evil kind of doctrine. Absurd.

I have no doubt some Muslims are nostalgic for the Caliphate but however, in this day and age with even Muslim countries to used to national independence? I'm not so sure that would go over well. I would liken it too the current governmental abuse backlash against the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

A caliphate in this day and age might not be politically feasible and then what if a moderate one is even founded? How can rights of it's citizens be protected by a body that doesn't work under democratic ideals?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

What Islam needs is a big name Imam to speak out against ISIS. I'm surprised Iran's big wig hasn't said anything. They are opposing sides of the Islam coin. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei seems to still be more obsessed about the the "evils" of the west than the very real threat knocking on his door.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LiberalAnglicanCatholic

It's the practise of any extremist that other points of view or faith patterns are against the will of whoever their concept of God or the divine is.

The bigger shame is really the moderate/liberal voice of Muslims being either afraid to speak up or unwilling to.
​

(I'm not allowed to post in this section but this thread is in the wrong section)

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I agree.

You can have Staff move it over to an appropriate board?
I don't think it is fair to have a thread like this without Muslims being able to give their input on it...IMHO


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[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON



Moved from General Theology.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Mama Kidogo]

"A catholic say"???

Try "an ecumenical council say".

And "laws made by ecumenical councils" are to this day said to be "infallible".

===================================

By contrast - if all you are saying is "yeah that was the dark ages... Lateran IV was a huge mistake - we have moved past that" -- then you are making MY point.

Did you intend to do that?

Are you really that interested in catching the same flack from RCC posters by taking that position?

in Christ,

Bob

It doesn't matter . Council or not. If they were wrong they were wrong. There is noting infallible about being wrong.If you run into those guys on the Council in the after life, wag your finger at them. But I suppose they'd already know they were wrong if they were wrong by then.

If the modern day Catholics tear it up will you become Catholic? I kind of doubt it. So you are just looking to be found right or what?

Have you tossed your Bible over the English translation of this?
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." I mean people have died over it.

 

[Rhamiel]

The ISIS shames us all. Their Prophet was supposed to have written a covenant that declares protection for all Christians far and wide if they are of peace. Well at the same time one cannot trust the media wholly.

Asalamu Alaikum
I understand that many Muslims want a Caliphate
I understand this desire, I pray that good Muslims set up a Caliphate that respects the rights of Christians and Jews living under its protection.
ISIS does not act like the Caliphates of old acted

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Asalamu Alaikum
I understand that many Muslims want a Caliphate
I understand this desire, I pray that good Muslims set up a Caliphate that respects the rights of Christians and Jews living under its protection.
ISIS does not act like the Caliphates of old acted

Something similar to the Pope of the RCC where he would rule ALL Muslims?

I may create a topic on "Caliphates" on another board.....

http://www.christianforums.com/f76/
Christianity and World Religion Christianity and World Religion forum

Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A caliphate (in Arabic: خلافة‎ khilāfa, meaning "succession") is an Islamic state led by a supreme religious and political leader known as a caliph – i.e. "successor" – to Muhammad. The succession of Muslim empires that have existed in the Muslim world are usually described as "caliphates". Conceptually, a caliphate represents a sovereign state of the entire Muslim faithful, (the Ummah), ruled by a caliph under Islamic law (sharia).[citation needed]


.

 

[Rhamiel]

Something similar to the Pope of the RCC where he would rule ALL Muslims?

I may create a topic on "Caliphates" on another board.....

http://www.christianforums.com/f76/
Christianity and World Religion Christianity and World Religion forum

Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A caliphate (in Arabic: خلافة‎ khilāfa, meaning "succession") is an Islamic state led by a supreme religious and political leader known as a caliph – i.e. "successor" – to Muhammad. The succession of Muslim empires that have existed in the Muslim world are usually described as "caliphates". Conceptually, a caliphate represents a sovereign state of the entire Muslim faithful, (the Ummah), ruled by a caliph under Islamic law (sharia).[citation needed]


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in theory the Caliphate is meant to be all Muslims and to slowly spread over the entire world, atleast according to Islam

in reality, Caliphates have been muslim empires (multiple nations under one central government) that is based on Islamic Law and is seen by muslims as a source of authority

it has been 100 years since the fall of the last Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, as we saw back then, the Ottoman Empire was not over EVERY muslim

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

in theory the Caliphate is meant to be all Muslims and to slowly spread over the entire world, atleast according to Islam

in reality, Caliphates have been muslim empires (multiple nations under one central government) that is based on Islamic Law and is seen by muslims as a source of authority

it has been 100 years since the fall of the last Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, as we saw back then, the Ottoman Empire was not over EVERY muslim

Thank you.

So Islam is essentially as fractured as Protestant Christianity, with no defined leader except Muhammad?


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[ChristsSoldier115]

A soldier I served with who was from Ghana was a muslim. He was heartbroken over the extremist view of Islam he encountered in Iraq on our tour in 2006. He one lamented, "I do not know how these people can say they are muslims. Muslims do not act like this." I am not sure what school of Islam his banner was, but the shia and sunni thing was news to him. I guess where he was in Ghana they did not emphasize their specific sect, but merely saw themselves as adherents of Islam period.

 

[Rhamiel]

Thank you.

So Islam is essentially as fractured as Protestant Christianity, with no defined leader except Muhammad?


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I am not an expert on this topic

there are differant branches of Islam, differant schools of thought
really, I have had people tell me that it is better to think of Islam as a legal system then a religion
even Islam kind of lends itself to this with differant schools of "jurisprudence" within each sect

it is kind of like Reformed Christianity (calvinism) in that there is no priesthood, but there are learned schoolars and cultural/political leaders who are seen as legitimate authorities.

but yeah, no defined leader at this moment, though there are regional leaders, they are not all united

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

Thank you.

So Islam is essentially as fractured as Protestant Christianity, with no defined leader except Muhammad?

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Well this is the same damn question that is the barrier between Sunni and Shia Islam.

Religiously Muslims are told to hold only God's Book (the Koran) and the Prophet as the two only religious authorities. In fact the Koran calls Muslims to encourage Christians (if they don't accept Islam) to at least

1) Worship only God and God alone (pure monotheism)
2) Not set up lords and patrons among themselves

(3:64)
Say: "O People of the Book (followers of the Bible)! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will)"

As to political authority and leadership of the Ummah Sunni and Shia Islam conflict each other. Sunnis believe in a Caliphate while the Shia believe in an Imamate (and these Imams holds religious authority too - something Sunni Islam vehemently finds fault with). Shia Islam had 12 Imams, the last one disappeared and would return as Imam Mahdi, a person both Sunni and Shia Muslims revere, and become Caliph - thus putting to end this conflict for good.

 

[Rhamiel]

Religiously Muslims are told to hold only God's Book (the Koran) and the Prophet as the two only religious authorities

holding Mohammed as a religious authority means you can also look at his life as examples of how muslims should act correct?
I have also heard that some schools of thought within Islam view the actions and sayings of the "four rightly guided Caliphs" as legitimate authorities

 

[WordsOfRepentance]

holding Mohammed as a religious authority means you can also look at his life as examples of how muslims should act correct?
I have also heard that some schools of thought within Islam view the actions and sayings of the "four rightly guided Caliphs" as legitimate authorities

By "religious authority" I mean sources of aqeedah (belief) and jurisprudence (fiqh) etc Of course we have a lot of examples of righteous Sahabah (companions of the Prophet) to draw inspiration from and to hold as role-models. BUT the sayings and actions of anyone other than that of the Prophet are considered infallible or not part of the religion - they are just advice.

Scholars could issue fatwas (rulings for a particular people) but these mostly are issues of jurisprudence through consensus and analogical deduction. The four schools of thought were founded by 4 "imams" but these men are not infallible - in fact they advise us to throw away their opinions of jurisprudence if we think it contradicts the Koran or the Sunnah (example, sayings of the Prophet)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel

in theory the Caliphate is meant to be all Muslims and to slowly spread over the entire world, atleast according to Islam

in reality, Caliphates have been muslim empires (multiple nations under one central government) that is based on Islamic Law and is seen by muslims as a source of authority

it has been 100 years since the fall of the last Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, as we saw back then, the Ottoman Empire was not over EVERY muslim
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Thank you.
​

So Islam is essentially as fractured as Protestant Christianity, with no defined leader except Muhammad?

​

Well this is the same damn question that is the barrier between Sunni and Shia Islam.

Religiously Muslims are told to hold only God's Book (the Koran) and the Prophet as the two only religious authorities. In fact the Koran calls Muslims to encourage Christians (if they don't accept Islam) to at least

1) Worship only God and God alone (pure monotheism)
2) Not set up lords and patrons among themselves

(3:64)
Say: "O People of the Book (followers of the Bible)! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will)"

As to political authority and leadership of the Ummah Sunni and Shia Islam conflict each other.
Sunnis believe in a Caliphate while the Shia believe in an Imamate (and these Imams holds religious authority too - something Sunni Islam vehemently finds fault with).

Shia Islam had 12 Imams, the last one disappeared and would return as Imam Mahdi, a person both Sunni and Shia Muslims revere, and become Caliph - thus putting to end this conflict for good.

Wow! That is fascinating and thanks for that.

I decided to look him up on Wiki, but will also look at other sources concerning him.

Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Mahdī (Arabic:محمد بن الحسن المهد&#1610 is believed by Twelver Shī‘a Muslims to be the Mahdī, an ultimate savior of humankind and the final Imām of the Twelve Imams who will emerge with Isa (Jesus Christ) in order to fulfill their mission of bringing peace and justice to the world.

Twelver Shī‘a believe that al-Mahdī was born in 869 (15 Sha‘bān 255 AH) and assumed Imamate at 5 years of age following the death of his father Hasan al-Askari. In the early years of his Imamate he would only contact his followers through The Four Deputies.

Followers of Sunni Islam and other minority Shias mostly believe that the Mahdi has not yet been born, and therefore his exact identity is only known to Allah. Aside from the Mahdi's precise genealogy, Sunnis accept many of the same hadiths Shias accept about the predictions regarding the Mahdi's emergence, his acts, and his universal Caliphate. Sunnis also have a few more Mahdi hadiths which are not present in Shia collections.



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