Understanding Evolution [moved from P&LS]

[expos4ever]

What I am saying is that it isn't futile effort to try and make progress in understanding people when they reject it. I want to hear their reasons they commonly express.

Ok, but do you not agree that the reasons they provide are not the real reasons why they reject evolution? Is there much value in investing time in clearing misconceptions about the science when the issue was never the science in the first place - the issue was instead a "sociological one" (i.e. people will cling to irrational beliefs if it cements their membership in a tribe).

In short - and at the risk of seeming even more dismissive of the deniers than I already appear to be - I suggest there is every reason to doubt that the reasons they give for denial have any relation to the actual reasons for denial.

 

[TBDude65]

Ok, but do you not agree that the reasons they provide are not the real reasons why they reject evolution? Is there much value in investing time in clearing misconceptions about the science when the issue was never the science in the first place - the issue was instead a "sociological one" (i.e. people will cling to irrational beliefs if it cements their membership in a tribe).

In short - and at the risk of seeming even more dismissive of the deniers than I already appear to be - I suggest there is every reason to doubt that the reasons they give for denial have any relation to the actual reasons for denial.

"Ok, but do you not agree that the reasons they provide are not the real reasons why they reject evolution?"

I don't make the assumption that the reasons they give aren't the "real" reasons they reject it. For the most part I accept that the "reasons" they give are the way they justify rejecting the science. The reason they reject it is ultimately religious, but understanding the ways they attempt to justify it is still beneficial to understanding who I am dealing with when I teach evolution. It is easier to deal with issues if you can see them coming and preemptively address them.

It also helps to make them try and articulate what they mean and why. Sometimes people start to realize that what they are saying is wrong or stupid or indefensible once they try and explain and defend it.

 

[expos4ever]

"Ok, but do you not agree that the reasons they provide are not the real reasons why they reject evolution?".....

Love the beard slap thing, by the way.

 

[AV1611VET]

The reason they reject it is ultimately religious, but understanding the ways they attempt to justify it is still beneficial to understanding who I am dealing with when I teach evolution.

For your record, here's my justification as to why I don't believe evolution:

The Bible says otherwise, that settles it.

 

[miamited]

I read it. I will try to keep this short. The evidence for the theory of evolution is more than conclusive. That is why scientists as a whole agree that evolution is both a theory and a fact, just as gravity is. Though you may not realize it believing the creation story requires a belief in a lying God. Even when I was a Christian I did not believe that God lied.

HI SZ,

I absolutely agree that God does not lie. Is the fact that you think that belief in a young creation means that God lied by putting all the 'old' stuff in it or by causing us to believe that light can only get from one place to another at a certain speed?

Friend, you just haven't understood the power of God. There was a time in Egypt that God made it pitch black for three whole days in Egypt. It is described as a darkness that could be felt in which one couldn't even see other people out and about. Yet, for those same three days, the Scriptures declare that there was fairly normal sunlight in all of Goshen. Now, maybe you aren't particularly familiar with the geographical location of Goshen in relationship to Egypt, but...

It is physically and scientifically impossible that normal sunlight would not shine in Egypt for three days and yet be shining in Goshen.

Another account speaks of God causing a shadow cast by the sun to literally back up 10 stair steps. It is physically and scientifically impossible for the sun's shadow to go backwards.

So, we have a choice. We can either believe, based on our own understanding of the natural properties of things that such accounts just aren't true or were somehow not described to us exactly as it really happened and we therefore don't understand what really went on during those two events, or...

We can come to the understanding that God can do anything with His creation. He can, at will, throw out and ignore all the 'laws' that we understand to rule over this physical realm at any time that He so chooses to do so.

I have chosen the later.

Further, the reason that we believe things to be as old as science tells us that they are isn't really because of any particular physical aspect of the things that we see, but merely because science tells us that they are. It is merely that we assume that things have always been the way that we see things today. Science tells us that light travels at a given speed and so we believe that the stars must be very, very old. But there really isn't any guarantee that when God created this realm He didn't just sweep his hand across all of the universe to spread the light out instantly from one end of the universe to another. God can do that!

Because God can do that doesn't make Him a liar. It makes us liars when we determine truth based on what we see as the 'rule' of physical properties and then use those 'rules' to determine the things of God. Friend, God isn't bound by any 'rules' of nature. The Scriptures portray that aspect of God over and over and over again.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree, which is why I said that I know evolution is not a cause of life, but rather an effect.

Ow... okay. So you are just having a state-the-obvious contest, then?

How extensive that effect is, is yet to be fully revealed.

It's quite revealed. So revealed that we can say beyond reasonable doubt that all life on this planet pretty much shares common ancestors.

The Bible even says:

Genesis 1:24
"And God saith, 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind:' and it is so."

Seeing as how the bible is clearly ignorant about pretty much everything that went on further then 1000 miles of its origination and that it hasn't got a clue about germs and stuff and that it classifies bats with birds and other such things, I think it's safe to say that the bible doesn't have anything interesting to say about this topic, other then what is rather obvious to pretty much any ignorant observer.

How long did it take for the earth to bring forth these living creatures and what did that process look like?

We don't know how that process looked like, exactly.
We do know that it happened relatively fast, considering the oldest known traces of life are 3.8 billion years old, and that the earth wasn't a hospitable place the first couple hundred million years. Rather a ball of molten rock instead.

So however it happened, looking at the records it seems as if it happened within a couple million years after the moment that earth could sustain life.

In geological terms, that's rather fast.

Complex life, as in multi-cellular life, actually is rather recent in the great scheme of things. The first few billion years, earth was populated by single celled life only.

I don't know for sure, but I know it did take time and I'm sure the process was fascinating.

Off course it took time. But as said, in the great scheme of things, life developed rather fast as soon as earth was actually reasonably capable of harboring life.

 

[miamited]

Hi expos,

You answer your question to me as such:

I will bet you accept them all except maybe number 5. But you tell me - which ones do you accept?

You understand me correctly in those matters. The difference, though, is that I can see and reproduce and test the total outcome of those things. I can take two vehicles and set them up for an 'accident' and put one occupant belted and another not belted and physically see that the premise is correct that seat belts save lives. I can run that test every day for months and see the same outcome repeated over and over and over again. Based on such repetitive testing I can adopt the conclusion that seat belts save lives.

However, I can also tell you that if God so chooses to get involved in the outcome of such an accident, all bets are off as to what will happen to the occupants of the vehicles involved. The God I know, if He so chooses, can allow two vehicles to come together in a head on crash where both vehicles are traveling at 120 mph and both occupants walk away without a scratch. The God I know can allow the accident to happen and both occupants die and then raise either one or both back to life again.

So, the problem for me, with allowing science to tell me about things that they cannot observe happening, but can only make judgments about such things happening by extrapolating information that we know to be true today and likely have been true for a very, very long time; that they can only 'prove' by looking at little pieces of the puzzle and then making grandiose claims that these little pieces that we know to be true today explain the event, is that they all depend on the natural properties of things working as we know them to work. But, God has, as I mentioned above, shown evidence that when He gets involved in doing something upon the earth, the 'rule' of the natural properties of things that we know, goes out the window.

The greatest example of this is the birth of my Lord and Savior, Jesus. The Scriptures tell me that he was born of a virgin. Some 2,000 years ago before man even knew about invitro fertilization and such things, a woman who claims of herself to having never laid with a man, is pregnant. Now, friend, science will tell you that's impossible. Yet, I believe that it happened just as the Scriptures tell me. Why? Because God did it!! God's word explains to us that through His Holy Spirit He implanted in Mary's womb what was necessary for Jesus to be born. She didn't have sexual relations with anyone. She merely woke up one day and she was pregnant. By all of your scientific knowledge and wisdom, that's impossible.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

I'm not sure I understand your explanation. Do you have any idea of how Christians can love and believe the Bible, can accept the truth of the Gospels and have faith in their salvation in Christ without necessarily believing that the Genesis stories are literal accurate history? Or do you just dismiss them as not "real" Christians?

Hi speedwell,

It does give me pause. When I read Jesus' explanation of the day of His Father's judgment, yes, I ask myself, what is it that these people who supposedly had a strong enough faith in God and Jesus to do great miracles and such in the name of Jesus, ultimately were found lacking in? Why is it that some who cry out "Lord, Lord!" have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, but others who apparently make the same cry do not? What separates them? It can't just be that they didn't believe in Jesus or God. The example seems to pretty clearly explain that they did. They called on Jesus name to perform great miracles.

So, I'll ask you, what do you think separates these two groups? I think it's a fair question to ask. After all, there are millions of people upon the earth who cry out "Lord, Lord", yet Jesus said that not everyone who makes that cry will be saved. He doesn't say that no one who makes that cry will be saved, but rather not everyone. So, we all cry out, "Lord, Lord", but only some of those who so cry will be saved. What's the difference?

When I look through the Scriptures I find that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God. Could that be the difference? While we all cry out for the Lord's salvation, hoping that in so doing we will escape the pit, we don't all believe God in the same way. Many of us believe this about God, but not that. What if Abraham was declared righteous because he believed all that God had revealed to him. He just believed God, no matter what his neighbors or men of science or religion might tell him he must believe.

As I say, it gives me pause to consider what is the difference between the people that Jesus is talking to his disciples about.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Speedwell]

Hi speedwell,

It does give me pause. When I read Jesus' explanation of the day of His Father's judgment, yes, I ask myself, what is it that these people who supposedly had a strong enough faith in God and Jesus to do great miracles and such in the name of Jesus, ultimately were found lacking in? Why is it that some who cry out "Lord, Lord!" have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, but others who apparently make the same cry do not? What separates them? It can't just be that they didn't believe in Jesus or God. The example seems to pretty clearly explain that they did. They called on Jesus name to perform great miracles.

So, I'll ask you, what do you think separates these two groups? I think it's a fair question to ask. After all, there are millions of people upon the earth who cry out "Lord, Lord", yet Jesus said that not everyone who makes that cry will be saved. He doesn't say that no one who makes that cry will be saved, but rather not everyone. So, we all cry out, "Lord, Lord", but only some of those who so cry will be saved. What's the difference?

When I look through the Scriptures I find that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God. Could that be the difference? While we all cry out for the Lord's salvation, hoping that in so doing we will escape the pit, we don't all believe God in the same way. Many of us believe this about God, but not that. What if Abraham was declared righteous because he believed all that God had revealed to him. He just believed God, no matter what his neighbors or men of science or religion might tell him he must believe.

As I say, it gives me pause to consider what is the difference between the people that Jesus is talking to his disciples about.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that believes the Genesis stories to be literal accurate history."

--from the Gospel according to Ted.​

And, of course, most of us who don't think the Genesis stories are meant to be literal accurate history believe they were inspired of God and contain foundational truths of the faith--but that will avail us nothing, right?​

 

[Subduction Zone]

Does it bother you that some people have the mindset that, unless you give science the same kind of respect they do, you have no right to use a computer or go to the doctor?

When one uses the science that one denies that is being hypocritical.

 

[KWCrazy]

Ok, but do you not agree that the reasons they provide are not the real reasons why they reject evolution? .... I suggest there is every reason to doubt that the reasons they give for denial have any relation to the actual reasons for denial.

I would expect this post from an atheist, but you represent that you are Christian. Christian means "of Christ.' Given that, on the subject of deniers, can you confirm or deny whether you believe in the following:

Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Romans 1:19-27 “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves.”

Genesis 1:26-27 “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Hebrews 11:3 “By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.”

Isaiah 44:24-25 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, who frustrates the signs of liars and makes fools of diviners, who turns wise men back and makes their knowledge foolish,

John 5:46-47 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

The Bible is very clear. The Scripture is truthful and can be trusted. The words of man are not and cannot. Why do you, a Christian, embrace the claims of man and turn away from the words of the lord your God? A wise man denies that which is false and embraces that which is true. The Bible is true. Evolution is false. Are you wise?

 

[Subduction Zone]

HI SZ,

I absolutely agree that God does not lie. Is the fact that you think that belief in a young creation means that God lied by putting all the 'old' stuff in it or by causing us to believe that light can only get from one place to another at a certain speed?

By putting evidence in the world that clearly says the Bible is wrong if led literally that would be a form of lying. Your question does not really make much sense so I cannot answer it. The fact is that multiple, not just one or two or three, sources of independent evidence point to evolution and only evolution. In science this is called consilience:

Consilience - Wikipedia

You may not realize it but you are in essence claiming that your version of God is a liar.

Friend, you just haven't understood the power of God. There was a time in Egypt that God made it pitch black for three whole days in Egypt. It is described as a darkness that could be felt in which one couldn't even see other people out and about. Yet, for those same three days, the Scriptures declare that there was fairly normal sunlight in all of Goshen. Now, maybe you aren't particularly familiar with the geographical location of Goshen in relationship to Egypt, but...

Sorry, but the Exodus story is a myth too. Relying on a the mythical parts of the Bible to make your point is not a winning strategy.

It is physically and scientifically impossible that normal sunlight would not shine in Egypt for three days and yet be shining in Goshen.

Right, good evidence that it never happened.

Another account speaks of God causing a shadow cast by the sun to literally back up 10 stair steps. It is physically and scientifically impossible for the sun's shadow to go backwards.

Once again, you need something much stronger than stories from the Bible. Almost all religions have stories that any non-believer would simply laugh at. You need valid evidence.

So, we have a choice. We can either believe, based on our own understanding of the natural properties of things that such accounts just aren't true or were somehow not described to us exactly as it really happened and we therefore don't understand what really went on during those two events, or...

We can come to the understanding that God can do anything with His creation. He can, at will, throw out and ignore all the 'laws' that we understand to rule over this physical realm at any time that He so chooses to do so.

I have chosen the later.

Then you choose a dishonest God. A rationally thinking person cannot choose what he believes. And you are probably rational too. No matter how hard I would try to convince you you could probably not decide to believe that I can fly by merely flapping my arms really hard. But when reality threatens your religious beliefs you do choose to think irrationally to protect them. If your God is real he gave me a brain that works. I can't reject the hard facts presented to me.

Further, the reason that we believe things to be as old as science tells us that they are isn't really because of any particular physical aspect of the things that we see, but merely because science tells us that they are. It is merely that we assume that things have always been the way that we see things today. Science tells us that light travels at a given speed and so we believe that the stars must be very, very old. But there really isn't any guarantee that when God created this realm He didn't just sweep his hand across all of the universe to spread the light out instantly from one end of the universe to another. God can do that!

No, we believe them to be as old as they are because all of those claims are testable and verifiable. Just because you don't know how people can determine ages scientifically don't make the terrible sin of stating that others cannot. There are consequences to changing the physical laws of the universe. And those consequences would almost always end life as we know it. You have been listening to dishonest people. It is easy to get fooled by people that tell you what you want to hear.

Because God can do that doesn't make Him a liar. It makes us liars when we determine truth based on what we see as the 'rule' of physical properties and then use those 'rules' to determine the things of God. Friend, God isn't bound by any 'rules' of nature. The Scriptures portray that aspect of God over and over and over again.

You are not paying attention. The evidence out there clearly disagrees with a literal interpretation of the Bible. There are no other explanations that have not been thoroughly refuted. In fact if you debate those that accept reality you are going to see the therm "PRATT's". That is an acronym for "Points Refuted A Thousand Times". Creationists are unwilling to drop an argument even when it has been refuted. Perhaps you should really try to understand the science that you deny.

 

[Heissonear]

If you did take paleontology as you claim you did, you would realise that literally all of what you just wrote is a PRATT.

You were not an evolutionist, geologist, and taking geology classes with me.

I was raised and educated in the science of nature around us. I was an evolutionist and learned from godless geologists. A few thousand year old earth was a joke. I had the first hand education and field work to know how things came about through how processes and rate that we see today is how the strata, structures, life forms and the like comes about. No God needed.

I've been in those shoes and had that type of trained mind.

But there was SERIOUSLY more to learn. But one has to be open to Him, through His Spirit. This is where you show immaturity and lack of firsthand kmowledge.

It appears you have wound up with "head knowledge". Thought in your head. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit you have not firsthand experience, else you would know of Him and His written Word, and how it is the Holy Spirit that opens up the Bible, it becomes living, with Him writing verse after verse upon your heart, how the heavens open and you hear from Him.

So stop learning once you are a godless geologist and evolutionist is a position or error, falling EXTREMELY short of much more to learn, of priceless value.

Meanwhile science has become your idol and there you worship and what your heart has turned to serve and follow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You were not an evolutionist, geologist, and taking geology classes with me.

You constantly make so many gross errors that I don't think that anyone here believes that you took those courses from an accredited source. Exactly where did you go to school and what courses did you take?

I was raised and educated in the science of nature around us. I was an evolutionist and learned from godless geologists. A few thousand year old earth was a joke. I had the first hand education and field work to know how things came about through how processes and rate that we see today is how the strata, structures, life forms and the like comes about. No God needed.

I've been in those shoes and had that type of trained mind.

But there was SERIOUSLY more to learn. But one has to be open to Him, through His Spirit. This is where you show immaturity and lack of firsthand kmowledge.

It appears you have wound up with "head knowledge". Thought in your head. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit you have not firsthand experience, else you would know of Him and His written Word, and how it is the Holy Spirit that opens up the Bible, it becomes living, with Him writing verse after verse upon your heart, how the heavens open and you hear from Him.

So stop learning once you are a godless geologist and evolutionist is a position or error, falling EXTREMELY short of much more to learn, of priceless value.

Meanwhile science has become your idol and there you worship and what your heart has turned to serve and follow.

You should not make false accusations of others. Just because others accept reality does not mean that they worship it. And though there are a fair number of atheists in geology not all of them are. The Christian geologists merely do not believe in a God that lies.

 

[miamited]

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that believes the Genesis stories to be literal accurate history."

--from the Gospel according to Ted.​

And, of course, most of us who don't think the Genesis stories are meant to be literal accurate history believe they were inspired of God and contain foundational truths of the faith--but that will avail us nothing, right?​

Hi speedwell,

It could be. It could be that God is going to declare righteous those who believed Him as Abraham seems to have believed Him. I asked you the question concerning this piece of Scripture portraying Jesus' discussion with his disciples. What is your answer? What is the difference? Why will some who cried out Lord, Lord be accepted and others who apparently did the exact same thing, not be?

I'm all open to suggestions. So many christians hang on to the claim that all you have to do in your life is declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. Yet, Jesus pretty clearly tells us that, no, this really isn't a one and done situation. There is so much written in the Scriptures about persevering in the faith. The parable of the sower seems to clearly explain that a lot of people will believe what they first hear about the Scriptures. That they will grow to some extent, but not flourish and finish the race. Why is that? What are these truths of the Scriptures telling us?

Is it as simple as all of us just walking down in front and confessing faith in Jesus as Lord, or is there also a part that makes a total transformation in our lives as we come to believe all that God has told us. Paul spoke of maturing in the faith. That some were still mere babes who couldn't or wouldn't partake of the solid food of the Scriptures. What's all that about?

Bottom line is what did Jesus mean when he said that only those who believe and are baptized will be saved. What does he expect us to believe? What all is covered in that issue of believing? Just that there is a God and He has a Son named Jesus? Or, does God, once we profess to be His child, expect us to believe all that He has told us? Is there a reason that born again believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. It would seem pretty obvious to me that new believers have believed the basic premise of God's salvation, But, apparently Jesus says that it is from this beginning of believing the basic premise that we are then given the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

Let's say you're god. You created everything just as you explained that you did, but people don't want to believe that and go around teaching others that such an idea just can't possibly be true. Do you see those people as faithful and true servants? Now, you're probably going to come back and say, "Oh, well, I wouldn't be so small as to demand that the people I'm going to save believe everything just as I told them." Are you sure that the God of all things will see the issue as you do? Why will some who cry out Lord, Lord be saved and others who do the exact same thing not be? What's your answer?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You were not an evolutionist, geologist, and taking geology classes with me.

I was raised and educated in the science of nature around us. I was an evolutionist and learned from godless geologists. A few thousand year old earth was a joke. I had the first hand education and field work to know how things came about through how processes and rate that we see today is how the strata, structures, life forms and the like comes about. No God needed.

I've been in those shoes and had that type of trained mind.

But there was SERIOUSLY more to learn. But one has to be open to Him, through His Spirit. This is where you show immaturity and lack of firsthand kmowledge.

It appears you have wound up with "head knowledge". Thought in your head. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit you have not firsthand experience, else you would know of Him and His written Word, and how it is the Holy Spirit that opens up the Bible, it becomes living, with Him writing verse after verse upon your heart, how the heavens open and you hear from Him.

So stop learning once you are a godless geologist and evolutionist is a position or error, falling EXTREMELY short of much more to learn, of priceless value.

Meanwhile science has become your idol and there you worship and what your heart has turned to serve and follow.

Yeah, see, here's the thing: you keep making the CLAIM that you learnt paleontology, and yet you continually make incredibly insipid mistakes about it.
Every single post you have made about paleontology is a Point Refuted A Thousand Times.
It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that you in fact DID NOT study paleontology.

Drop the act. God does not like those who lie for their own benefit in His name.

 

[expos4ever]

.....The Bible is very clear. The Scripture is truthful and can be trusted. The words of man are not and cannot. Why do you, a Christian, embrace the claims of man and turn away from the words of the lord your God? A wise man denies that which is false and embraces that which is true. The Bible is true. Evolution is false. Are you wise?

I, like millions of others - probably the majority of Christians worldwide - have both the scientific sense and the literary sophistication to (1) accept evolution; and (2) recognize the use of non-literal imagery in the Bible.

A talking snake? I am quite confident that whoever wrote Genesis 1 is now stroking his lengthy beard in heaven and asking himself "Don't these 21st century types understand allegory / myth? Well, they did elect Donald Trump as President so I am not surprised at anything"

 

[miamited]

By putting evidence in the world that clearly says the Bible is wrong if led literally that would be a form of lying. Your question does not really make much sense so I cannot answer it. The fact is that multiple, not just one or two or three, sources of independent evidence point to evolution and only evolution. In science this is called consilience:

Consilience - Wikipedia

You may not realize it but you are in essence claiming that your version of God is a liar.



Sorry, but the Exodus story is a myth too. Relying on a the mythical parts of the Bible to make your point is not a winning strategy.



Right, good evidence that it never happened.



Once again, you need something much stronger than stories from the Bible. Almost all religions have stories that any non-believer would simply laugh at. You need valid evidence.



Then you choose a dishonest God. A rationally thinking person cannot choose what he believes. And you are probably rational too. No matter how hard I would try to convince you you could probably not decide to believe that I can fly by merely flapping my arms really hard. But when reality threatens your religious beliefs you do choose to think irrationally to protect them. If your God is real he gave me a brain that works. I can't reject the hard facts presented to me.


No, we believe them to be as old as they are because all of those claims are testable and verifiable. Just because you don't know how people can determine ages scientifically don't make the terrible sin of stating that others cannot. There are consequences to changing the physical laws of the universe. And those consequences would almost always end life as we know it. You have been listening to dishonest people. It is easy to get fooled by people that tell you what you want to hear.



You are not paying attention. The evidence out there clearly disagrees with a literal interpretation of the Bible. There are no other explanations that have not been thoroughly refuted. In fact if you debate those that accept reality you are going to see the therm "PRATT's". That is an acronym for "Points Refuted A Thousand Times". Creationists are unwilling to drop an argument even when it has been refuted. Perhaps you should really try to understand the science that you deny.

Hi SZ,

Well, it's been a learning experience for at least one of us. I pray that the God in whom you don't believe will still bless you. Yes, you're absolutely correct. The evidence 'out there' clearly disagrees with a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. I believe that I do understand science. I believe that I also understand the limitations of science.

In Christ, ted

 

[Speedwell]

What are these truths of the Scriptures telling us?

And how is it telling them?

"...believe everything just as I told them."

Do you see in that the assumptions you are making about scriptural interpretation, divine inspiration and truth? Not all Christians share those assumptions--in fact, the majority do not and never have.

 

[AV1611VET]

When one uses the science that one denies that is being hypocritical.

What science do I deny that says I can't use a computer?

And in fact, it's the other way around.

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

I hold the science of computing up to a Higher Standard that you, in your current state (atheism), wouldn't dare go.