Understanding About God's Law Per Christian Doctrine

[Davy]

There are many Churches today that listen to some unknown groups in far away cities that write their pastor's teaching plan, and send them to the Church as Quarterlies. Included in some of those is the mis-teaching about God's laws for the Christian, some even going so far as to say the law itself is now dead since Lord Jesus died on the cross. Nothing could be farther from God's Truth.

If you study all your Bible, then this should be easy to understand, because you'll be aware of parts of The New Testament writings where God's law is included as Christian doctrine. Think I'm wrong on that maybe? Listen to Apostle Paul...

1 Tim 1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
KJV

Paul specifically labels certain sins there which come directly from God's laws written in the Old Testament Books. The sin of murder, profanity, manslayers, whoremongers, sodomy ("them that defile themselves with mankind"), menstealers, liars, perjury (lying in court under oath).

In Galatians 5, Apostle Paul labels more sins that were first determined by God's law:

Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

Those works of the flesh were first determined by God's laws in the Old Testament. Paul here shows those things are STILL in effect today per Christian doctrine, meaning for those who break them by NOT... walking by The Spirit.

Paul shows that only IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we are dead to the law, simply because we won't be doing anything that is against God's law.

Even in Hebrews 10:16 we were shown per The New Covenant that God promised to write His laws in our hearts and minds, and that is for all... believers on Christ Jesus. That means The Holy Spirit will remind us regarding God's laws when directing our walk in Christ. So how could God's laws ever be dead by that?? It should be very easy then, to know when a hireling has crept in at the pulpit, and is telling lies against these Scripture proofs that show God's laws are still manifest today, even 'through' Christ's Church by The Holy Spirit!

And in 1 Timothy 1, Apostle Paul shows God's laws are particularly for the wicked and unholy. How's that?...

This is what the court systems are for. Not every law punishable was made by man. Many laws are straight out of God's Word. Who did God give that authority of keeping His law structure for His people to, that serve the judicial system? The tribe of Judah especially, the Jews. Think I'm making that up?...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

Ps 60:7
7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is My lawgiver;
KJV

"Shiloh" in the above is put for our Lord Jesus Christ. Unto Christ is to Whom the gathering of the people will be when He returns. So the tribe of Judah is to remain in care of God's law all the way up to Christ's future return. Even that Genesis 49 chapter is about Jacob giving his 12 sons prophesy for what would befall them in the "last days".


So who wants us to dump God's laws that our Lord Jesus did not nail to His cross? who wants chaos to rule in the streets of God's people? who wants the criminal to have power over God's people so it isn't safe to even go outside your dwelling? who wants murderers and rioters to slay and riot in the daytime and get away with it? who wants the tyrant to reign over God's people? God's people had better start waking up, because these things are exactly what is planned for western Christian society today. By whom? By Satan and his servants here on earth that want to destroy God's people. Removing God's laws is one of the ways they plan on doing just that.

 

[Fervent]

I don't believe I've ever heard someone teach that God's law is dead in the sense you seem to be implying. What is taught, sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly, is that the sentence of death that was brought by the Sinai codes was put to death at the cross. The sting of the law, the curse of the law, is dead. Walking by the spirit doesn't entail meticulous law keeping, in fact that's the antithesis of it. Being alive to God, we have the voice of the Shepherd to guide us and have no need of the law. As Paul said, the law is for law breakers not the righteous and those in Christ are righteous.

 

[Davy]

Being alive to God, we have the voice of the Shepherd to guide us and have no need of the law.

Do you not realize by that statement you just contradicted yourself? At the start of your post you claim you've never heard any preach that the law is now dead for those in Christ, and then you turn around and suggest that we as Christians "have no need of the law"?

When Hebrews 8 & 10 reveals that per The New Covenant God promised to write His laws in our hearts and minds, then HOW can we as believers on Christ have no need for God's law?

What you are obviously confusing is the 'old covenant' law keeping with the Christian relation with God's law.

There still is nothing in Christian doctrine that says we as Christians cannot study God's law to know what He dislikes that is bad for us. We simply are not to use that as a replacement for Christ's Blood shed upon His cross.

So basically, what you have said confirms my point about God's law and Christian doctrine.

 

[Fervent]

Do you not realize by that statement you just contradicted yourself? At the start of your post you claim you've never heard any preach that the law is now dead for those in Christ, and then you turn around and suggest that we as Christians "have no need of the law"?

When Hebrews 8 & 10 reveals that per The New Covenant God promised to write His laws in our hearts and minds, then HOW can we as believers on Christ have no need for God's law?

What you are obviously confusing is the 'old covenant' law keeping with the Christian relation with God's law.

There still is nothing in Christian doctrine that says we as Christians cannot study God's law to know what He dislikes that is bad for us. We simply are not to use that as a replacement for Christ's Blood shed upon His cross.

So basically, what you have said confirms my point about God's law and Christian doctrine.

No, I haven't contradicted myself because I said I hadn't heard anyone preach the law was dead in the way you speak of it. Christians are dead to the law, it having no further claim on them. Christ's law is a law unto life that we are made alive to, yet here you are trying to minister death. The statutes and laws that set Israel aside and created a wall of separation between Jew and Gentile have been put to death. There simply is no reason to draw upon the law of Sinai for guidance when we have the Spirit to guide us. The law was a school master to bring us to the true way, having come it is nothing more than a relic. Studying Scripture is beneficial, but there is no reason a Christian should place themselves under the yoke of Sinai.

 

[TzephanYahu]

Amen @Davy

God's people had better start waking up, because these things are exactly what is planned for western Christian society today

Indeed, as the Poet of Ephraim wrote in the "Church of Confusion" poem, which demonstrates the confusion and contradictions in common church theology today...

"God gave us the Law He knew we couldn't obey,
Then manifested as His Son to lead us a new way.
Now the Law's in our hearts as we walk by the Spirit,
Who says the Law's in the past, we needn't go near it.
Because grace covers up, thanks to our Lord Jesus,
Who is a single God formed of three integrated pieces.
And we gentiles have Paul as a shortcut to what's holy,
As most of God's thoughts are meant for Jews only."

 

[Davy]

Christians are dead to the law, it having no further claim on them.

That statement is true ONLY IF... we walk by The Spirit, like Apostle Paul said in Galatians 5.

What happens IF... we do not walk by The Spirit, meaning when we slip up at times? because we all fall short of God's glory? Ah....! there's the rub.

IF... we fall away to do one of those works of the flesh Paul listed, THEN... the law is most definitely not dead for us at that point. That is why we need to 'repent' to Lord Jesus asking forgiveness, and make a change (as taught in 1 John 1). And hopefully it won't be the breaking of one of God's laws that condemns us to the death penalty.

How then is the above realization per the actual Scripture different... than what is being taught in some Churches? Some Churches are wrongly teaching that we as believers on Christ CANNOT EVER sin anymore. Nor do they teach the need to repent to Christ when we do slip up and sin after having believed and been baptized. What effect does that have upon the believer's life?

The believer who heeds that kind of wrong thinking will learn to become a habitual sinner. It's an out of mind, don't matter attitude towards sin.

 

[Fervent]

That statement is true ONLY IF... we walk by The Spirit, like Apostle Paul said in Galatians 5.

What happens IF... we do not walk by The Spirit, meaning when we slip up at times? because we all fall short of God's glory? Ah....! there's the rub.

IF... we fall away to do one of those works of the flesh Paul listed, THEN... the law is most definitely not dead for us at that point. That is why we need to 'repent' to Lord Jesus asking forgiveness, and make a change (as taught in 1 John 1). And hopefully it won't be the breaking of one of God's laws that condemns us to the death penalty.

How then is the above realization per the actual Scripture different... than what is being taught in some Churches? Some Churches are wrongly teaching that we as believers on Christ CANNOT EVER sin anymore. Nor do they teach the need to repent to Christ when we do slip up and sin after having believed and been baptized. What effect does that have upon the believer's life?

The believer who heeds that kind of wrong thinking will learn to become a habitual sinner. It's an out of mind, don't matter attitude towards sin.

Who is teaching these things and where? You make some serious accusations.

Beyond that, what you are proposing isn't what is written at all and it comes down to where you speak of "walking after the spirit" yet you equate that to law-keeping, which it's not. The law's power is death, and death has been stripped of its sting with the resurrection. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, it is not a yo-yo game where we're walking a tight wire hoping not to fall into sin. Joining Christ's baptism we become dead to the law, being set free to serve a higher law. The law has no dominion and to teach that it does is to walk after the flesh not the Spirit.

 

[Davy]

Who is teaching these things and where? You make some serious accusations.

Beyond that, what you are proposing isn't what is written at all and it comes down to where you speak of "walking after the spirit" yet you equate that to law-keeping, which it's not. The law's power is death, and death has been stripped of its sting with the resurrection. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, it is not a yo-yo game where we're walking a tight wire hoping not to fall into sin. Joining Christ's baptism we become dead to the law, being set free to serve a higher law. The law has no dominion and to teach that it does is to walk after the flesh not the Spirit.

By your attitude, I'd say you well know which Churches are teaching their congregations they cannot sin anymore after believing on Christ, and also in a round about way teach them that all their sins they might ever do is covered by Lord Jesus on His cross. God's Word does not teach that, and their idea is popularly called "once saved, always saved."

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

We still need to repent to Christ for sins we may commit in the future, and we will, because we all fall short of the glory of God, as we can only be counted 'perfect', but never actually be perfect like our Lord Jesus Who only was perfect in the flesh with no sin. This is why we still need to repent of future sin, which Lord Jesus told us do in Luke 11 with how to pray.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV

 

[Fervent]

By your attitude, I'd say you well know which Churches are teaching their congregations they cannot sin anymore after believing on Christ, and also in a round about way teach them that all their sins they might ever do is covered by Lord Jesus on His cross. God's Word does not teach that, and their idea is popularly called "once saved, always saved."

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

We still need to repent to Christ for sins we may commit in the future, and we will, because we all fall short of the glory of God, as we can only be counted 'perfect', but never actually be perfect like our Lord Jesus Who only was perfect in the flesh with no sin. This is why we still need to repent of future sin, which Lord Jesus told us do in Luke 11 with how to pray.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV

No, not at all. All I see is baseless accusations coming from you.

"Once saved, always saved" doesn't follow a teaching that Christians are no longer under the law, and is in fact a separate issue entirely. Ultimately the issue there is more the idea of a moment-in-time salvation rather than salvation as a process. If, as is commonly taught, God decrees upon our initial belief and confession of Jesus that we have eternal life then that life is irrevocable because it is based on God's decree not our confession or actions. Though this sort of "saved/not saved" dichotomy is questionable since no one truly knows the moment that they go from one into the other. Salvation, then, is a process which is happening to us not a condition we obtain. We are not truly "saved" until the final judgment.

 

[Davy]

No, not at all. All I see is baseless accusations coming from you.

"Once saved, always saved" doesn't follow a teaching that Christians are no longer under the law, and is in fact a separate issue entirely.

Well, just by that statement I already know you're not being truthful.

 

[Soyeong]

What is taught, sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly, is that the sentence of death that was brought by the Sinai codes was put to death at the cross. The sting of the law, the curse of the law, is dead.

While it is true that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4), so while Christ has taken the curse for transgressing the Mosaic Law upon himself, that does not remove our obligation to obey it.

Walking by the spirit doesn't entail meticulous law keeping, in fact that's the antithesis of it. Being alive to God, we have the voice of the Shepherd to guide us and have no need of the law.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, which refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with us.

As Paul said, the law is for law breakers not the righteous and those in Christ are righteous.

In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose hear is the Mosaic Law. The righteous people who already living righteously are not the ones who need to be taught laws for how to live righteously, but rather it is unrighteous people who are in need of laws to teach them how to do that. To say that God is righteous is to say that he does what is righteous and to say that someone has been declared righteous is to say that they live by faith in a way that testifies about God's righteousness in obedience to His laws for how to do that, so it would be absurd to interpret 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as saying that doing what is righteous is only for the unrighteous and not for the righteous. If someone says that the law is only for the unrighteous as an excuse to refuse to obey God's law, then they thereby become an unrighteous person that the law is for. It doesn't even make sense to think that once we are declared righteous, then we can go back to living in sin. In 1 Timothy 1:8, it says that God's law is good if one uses it properly, so the proceeding verses should not be use to argue that the law is not good for us to obey.

Christians are dead to the law, it having no further claim on them. Christ's law is a law unto life that we are made alive to, yet here you are trying to minister death. The statutes and laws that set Israel aside and created a wall of separation between Jew and Gentile have been put to death. There simply is no reason to draw upon the law of Sinai for guidance when we have the Spirit to guide us. The law was a school master to bring us to the true way, having come it is nothing more than a relic. Studying Scripture is beneficial, but there is no reason a Christian should place themselves under the yoke of Sinai.

Christians are dead to the law of sin in order be free to obey the Law of Moses, not the other way around. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4). Furthermore, Christ because his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so Christ taught obedience to it by word and by example and it wouldn't make sense to think that his law is something other than what he taught. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own laws in disagreement with what the Father had commanded.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so it is a ministry of life for those who obey it, and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to do that. God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Someone who disregarded everything their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the point of a schoolmaster. The way to follow Christ is not by refusing to follow what he taught.

Beyond that, what you are proposing isn't what is written at all and it comes down to where you speak of "walking after the spirit" yet you equate that to law-keeping, which it's not. The law's power is death, and death has been stripped of its sting with the resurrection. There is no condemnation for those in Christ, it is not a yo-yo game where we're walking a tight wire hoping not to fall into sin. Joining Christ's baptism we become dead to the law, being set free to serve a higher law. The law has no dominion and to teach that it does is to walk after the flesh not the Spirit.

In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Mosaic Law is not sinful, however, 1 Corinthians 15:56 is speaking about a law that is sinful, therefore it is not referring to the Mosaic Law, but rather it is the law of sin that is the strength of sin. In Romans 7:25, Paul directly contrasted the Mosaic Law with the law of sin.

 

[anna ~ grace]

The Reformation really messed a lot of things up.

The Truth about works, salvation, faith, grace, and the Law of Moses has never been lost. It’s always been right here.

 

[Fervent]

While it is true that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4), so while Christ has taken the curse for transgressing the Mosaic Law upon himself, that does not remove our obligation to obey it.



In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, which refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with us.



In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose hear is the Mosaic Law. The righteous people who already living righteously are not the ones who need to be taught laws for how to live righteously, but rather it is unrighteous people who are in need of laws to teach them how to do that. To say that God is righteous is to say that he does what is righteous and to say that someone has been declared righteous is to say that they live by faith in a way that testifies about God's righteousness in obedience to His laws for how to do that, so it would be absurd to interpret 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as saying that doing what is righteous is only for the unrighteous and not for the righteous. If someone says that the law is only for the unrighteous as an excuse to refuse to obey God's law, then they thereby become an unrighteous person that the law is for. It doesn't even make sense to think that once we are declared righteous, then we can go back to living in sin. In 1 Timothy 1:8, it says that God's law is good if one uses it properly, so the proceeding verses should not be use to argue that the law is not good for us to obey.



Christians are dead to the law of sin in order be free to obey the Law of Moses, not the other way around. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4). Furthermore, Christ because his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so Christ taught obedience to it by word and by example and it wouldn't make sense to think that his law is something other than what he taught. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own laws in disagreement with what the Father had commanded.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so it is a ministry of life for those who obey it, and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to do that. God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Someone who disregarded everything their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the point of a schoolmaster. The way to follow Christ is not by refusing to follow what he taught.



In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Mosaic Law is not sinful, however, 1 Corinthians 15:56 is speaking about a law that is sinful, therefore it is not referring to the Mosaic Law, but rather it is the law of sin that is the strength of sin. In Romans 7:25, Paul directly contrasted the Mosaic Law with the law of sin.

There's far too much to pick apart in this post, but the law Paul spoke of in 1 Cor. is the exact same law he speaks of in Romans 7-8 and again in Ephesians 2 and in Colossians 2 and Galatians 2. It would be rather silly to die to the law simply to try to keep the exact same law that required you to die to it, and it is only those who desperately want to prove their own self-righteousness that desperately cling to the law of Moses. Those who are God-righteous recognize it has no hold on them.

 

[Soyeong]

There's far too much to pick apart in this post, but the law Paul spoke of in 1 Cor. is the exact same law he speaks of in Romans 7-8 and again in Ephesians 2 and in Colossians 2 and Galatians 2. It would be rather silly to die to the law simply to try to keep the exact same law that required you to die to it, and it is only those who desperately want to prove their own self-righteousness that desperately cling to the law of Moses. Those who are God-righteous recognize it has no hold on them.

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as the Law of God, works of the law, and the law of sin, so he was not always speaking about the same law throughout those chapters. For example, in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, and in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith. In Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which is not a law found anywhere in the Law of God, and is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles and by doing so he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. In Galatians 2:19, it wouldn't make sense to interpret as dying to God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to be free to live for Him, but rather we would need to die to a law that was hindering us from living for God in order to be free to do that, namely we need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God. So I was not speaking about keeping the exact same law that required us to die to it.

If the Mosaic Law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God doesn't want us to become self-righteous, then that would mean that God doesn't want to be obeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to it. Therefore the Mosaic Law was not given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, but as instructions for how to testify about God's righteousness. Christ expressed his righteousness through His actions and what that looked like was a life lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we have received the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Fervent]

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as the Law of God, works of the law, and the law of sin, so he was not always speaking about the same law throughout those chapters. For example, in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, and in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith. In Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which is not a law found anywhere in the Law of God, and is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles and by doing so he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. In Galatians 2:19, it wouldn't make sense to interpret as dying to God's instructions for how to live for Him in order to be free to live for Him, but rather we would need to die to a law that was hindering us from living for God in order to be free to do that, namely we need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God. So I was not speaking about keeping the exact same law that required us to die to it.

If the Mosaic Law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God doesn't want us to become self-righteous, then that would mean that God doesn't want to be obeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to it. Therefore the Mosaic Law was not given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, but as instructions for how to testify about God's righteousness. Christ expressed his righteousness through His actions and what that looked like was a life lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we have received the righteousness of Christ.

No, the problem isn't with ancient Israelites obeying the law of Moses as it was given to govern their stewardship of the land. It was an agreement between the nation of Israel and God with the law of Moses being the end of the agreement the Israelites were to maintain. Those who think they uphold God's law today by enjoining themselves to that old contract do so purely out of a sense of self-righteousness. They do not obey God but the flesh. Romans 7 is entirely about the Mosaic law addressed to those formerly bound to it-Israelites- and explaining to them how through Christ they are set free from it. Obeying statutes written on stone and papyrus does nothing but inflame the flesh-as Romans 7 lays out- turning it into a ministry of death. It is not now in force, and is definitely not the path to God nor is it obedience of God since through their own performance those who insist we follow it put Christ to death anew and treat as unholy the blood of this new covenant.

 

[Soyeong]

No, the problem isn't with ancient Israelites obeying the law of Moses as it was given to govern their stewardship of the land. It was an agreement between the nation of Israel and God with the law of Moses being the end of the agreement the Israelites were to maintain. Those who think they uphold God's law today by enjoining themselves to that old contract do so purely out of a sense of self-righteousness. They do not obey God but the flesh.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to testify about His nature. The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has given for how to testify about His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. The actions that are against God's nature are what define what sin is, and sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when it was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so none of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete change which actions are righteous or sinful.

There can be reasons for obeying the Mosaic Law other than trying to become self-righteous, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not become self-righteous. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through our obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous.

Romans 7 is entirely about the Mosaic law addressed to those formerly bound to it-Israelites- and explaining to them how through Christ they are set free from it. Obeying statutes written on stone and papyrus does nothing but inflame the flesh-as Romans 7 lays out- turning it into a ministry of death.

In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the woman set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that we have been set free from any of God's laws. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive. In Romans 7:4-6 were referring to God's law, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, but you have died to the Law of God in order to become in bondage to the law of sin.

It is not now in force, and is definitely not the path to God nor is it obedience of God since through their own performance those who insist we follow it put Christ to death anew and treat as unholy the blood of this new covenant.

Is God not capable of giving laws to lead us on the path to Him? In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for obeying God's laws for how to do good works is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be putting him to death anew and treating as unholy the blood of this New Covenant.

 

[Fervent]

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to testify about His nature. The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has given for how to testify about His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. The actions that are against God's nature are what define what sin is, and sin was in the world before the Mosaic Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when it was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so none of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete change which actions are righteous or sinful.

There can be reasons for obeying the Mosaic Law other than trying to become self-righteous, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not become self-righteous. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through our obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous.



In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the woman set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that we have been set free from any of God's laws. In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive. In Romans 7:4-6 were referring to God's law, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, but you have died to the Law of God in order to become in bondage to the law of sin.



Is God not capable of giving laws to lead us on the path to Him? In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for obeying God's laws for how to do good works is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be putting him to death anew and treating as unholy the blood of this New Covenant.

Your premise is way off base, as the Mosaic law wasn't given to reveal God's character. It was given so that sin would become completely sinful so that it could be put to death in the flesh. It now stands as a guidepost to Christ but those who are led by the Spirit don't need a set of laws to speak to them about hte nature of God, we have God living within us testifying to His nature.

 

[Soyeong]

Your premise is way off base, as the Mosaic law wasn't given to reveal God's character. It was given so that sin would become completely sinful so that it could be put to death in the flesh. It now stands as a guidepost to Christ but those who are led by the Spirit don't need a set of laws to speak to them about hte nature of God, we have God living within us testifying to His nature.

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is the actions that are against God's nature, which has been revealed through the Mosaic Law. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). In 2 Samuel 22:21-37, it lists some of God's ways as being righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness, so they are all aspects of God's nature, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others.

For example, God example, God's righteous laws teach how to testify about God's righteousness, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are showing what we believe to be true about who God is, which is why there are many verses that associate our obedience to God with believing in Him. Furthermore, when we do what is righteous, we are experiencing who God is, or in other words, we are growing in a relationship with him through gaining experiential knowledge of Him and of Christ, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus showed the nature of the Father through his works in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is why he could say everything that he did in John 14:6-11. In Exodus 33:13, if Moses had found grace in God's eyes, he wanted God to show him His ways that he might experientially know Him. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so again God's commandments are His instructions for how to grow in a relationship with Christ. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

The Bible does not say that if we are led by the Spirit, then we don't need a set of laws, but rather in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. All of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with the Mosaic Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, so walking in the Spirit is not an alternative to submitting to God's laws.

 

[Fervent]

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is the actions that are against God's nature, which has been revealed through the Mosaic Law. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). In 2 Samuel 22:21-37, it lists some of God's ways as being righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness, so they are all aspects of God's nature, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others.

For example, God example, God's righteous laws teach how to testify about God's righteousness, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are showing what we believe to be true about who God is, which is why there are many verses that associate our obedience to God with believing in Him. Furthermore, when we do what is righteous, we are experiencing who God is, or in other words, we are growing in a relationship with him through gaining experiential knowledge of Him and of Christ, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus showed the nature of the Father through his works in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is why he could say everything that he did in John 14:6-11. In Exodus 33:13, if Moses had found grace in God's eyes, he wanted God to show him His ways that he might experientially know Him. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so again God's commandments are His instructions for how to grow in a relationship with Christ. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

The Bible does not say that if we are led by the Spirit, then we don't need a set of laws, but rather in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. All of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with the Mosaic Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, so walking in the Spirit is not an alternative to submitting to God's laws.

The fundamental error you are making is the notion that the Mosaic law's primary function is to build the character of God in the individual. It wasn't, in fact it contained things like the law on divorce that are contrary to God's character but allowed because of the evil of men. The law of Moses was a code of conduct for a specific time and place, and while the eternal law of God can be seen within its statutes it is not that eternal law. It was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, and a device to condemn sin. It is good and just in so far as it is applied properly, but placing it over the heads of believers in Christ is not a proper use of that law since its function for the righteous(to draw us to Christ) is fulfilled. Can we still study the law and see the eternal nature of God's love within it? Yes, but that is a different matter from putting ourselves under its yoke and trying to make ourselves righteous through our keeping of it, as that path inevitably leads to a watering down of its statutes to a level that can be comfortably held and creates division and judgment. The law enflames sin in the flesh, and it did so so that that sin could be condemned in the flesh. To run back to it is to treat the blood of the new covenant as unholy and claim that Christ died in vain.