• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Underneath it all, is it safe?

MehGuy

A member of the less neotenous sex..
Site Supporter
Jul 23, 2007
56,250
11,014
Minnesota
✟1,349,359.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think technical advancement could possible bring about suffering on an unprecedented scale.

I'm talking subjecting people to torture for thousands perhaps millions of years, etc..

Although I guess I am not really sure what you're asking.
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,157
21,406
Flatland
✟1,054,929.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Eryk

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 29, 2005
5,113
2,377
59
Maryland
✟132,445.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Is existence safe? Do we need fear ultimate harm, whether through death or ongoing punishment?
Existence is not safe. Eventually, something is going to kill you.

There are different beliefs to cope with this. An eternal self that is impervious to the destruction of the body, or no self at all.

Or we can just let go of fear without having beliefs. We can ask ourselves if we can let go of the desire for security/survival. The fear of death is nothing but an emotion that disappears in the presence of a question.
 
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟26,740.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Is existence safe?

Death is inevitable, but how safe our lives are and how long they last depends on what kinds of risks you're willing to take.

Do we need fear ultimate harm, whether through death or ongoing punishment?

Of course not.

Do we need to measure up to avoid the above fates?

No matter how much you "measure up", like I said, death is inevitable. There is no ongoing punishment.
 
Upvote 0

nightflight

Veteran
Mar 13, 2006
9,221
2,655
Your dreams.
✟45,570.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I should have given more context to my OP. I "discovered" this sub forum days ago and have read with interest several threads dealing with religion, spirituality and mysticism. Back in the mid-2000s I was an atheist; my agnosticism drifted over the line to a stronger unbelief in God. This was after reading many articles, books, etc. that presented a materialist explanation for the world. However I found this outlook to be rather bleak. At some point in the next couple of years I got the conviction that maybe I was wrong, that maybe there is more to existence than matter. So I seek and seek, trying to find something. So my question was along those lines. I know that we all die, but I am assuming that our existence goes beyond the barriers of physical life; I am looking for feedback from those on a path of some sort.

Consider the account of Maurice Bucke, who wrote a book called Cosmic Consciousness:

It was in the early spring, at the beginning of his thirty-sixth year. He and two friends had spent the evening reading Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Browning, and especially Whitman. They parted at midnight, and he had a long drive in a hansom (it was in an English city). His mind, deeply under the influence of the ideas, images and emotions called up by the reading and talk of the evening, was calm and peaceful. He was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, he found himself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored
cloud. For an instant he thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, he knew that the light was within himself. Directly afterwards came upon him a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe. Into his brain streamed one momentary lightning-flash of the Brahmic Splendor which has ever since lightened his life; upon his heart fell one drop of Brahmic Bliss, leaving thenceforward for always an aftertaste of heaven. Among other things he did not come to believe, he saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain. He claims that he learned more within the few seconds during which the illumination lasted than in previous months or even years of study, and that he learned much that no study could ever have taught.

I guess what I am asking is could it be that at the bottom of it all there is eternal safety and bliss? For all of us? Could existence, despite what we see, be this good?
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,157
21,406
Flatland
✟1,054,929.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Death is inevitable, but how safe our lives are and how long they last depends on what kinds of risks you're willing to take.

Of course not.

No matter how much you "measure up", like I said, death is inevitable. There is no ongoing punishment.
Source?
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,157
21,406
Flatland
✟1,054,929.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Back in the mid-2000s I was an atheist; my agnosticism drifted over the line to a stronger unbelief in God. This was after reading many articles, books, etc. that presented a materialist explanation for the world.

A materialistic explanation of matter is a contradiction in terms.
Consider the account of Maurice Bucke, who wrote a book called Cosmic Consciousness:

It was in the early spring, at the beginning of his thirty-sixth year. He and two friends had spent the evening reading Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Browning, and especially Whitman. They parted at midnight, and he had a long drive in a hansom (it was in an English city). His mind, deeply under the influence of the ideas, images and emotions called up by the reading and talk of the evening, was calm and peaceful. He was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, he found himself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored
cloud. For an instant he thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, he knew that the light was within himself. Directly afterwards came upon him a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe. Into his brain streamed one momentary lightning-flash of the Brahmic Splendor which has ever since lightened his life; upon his heart fell one drop of Brahmic Bliss, leaving thenceforward for always an aftertaste of heaven. Among other things he did not come to believe, he saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain. He claims that he learned more within the few seconds during which the illumination lasted than in previous months or even years of study, and that he learned much that no study could ever have taught.

I guess what I am asking is could it be that at the bottom of it all there is eternal safety and bliss? For all of us? Could existence, despite what we see, be this good?
That's why the word "gospel" is Greek for "good news". As hard as it might be to believe, good is possible.
 
Upvote 0

Fizzywig

Namu Amida Butsu
May 9, 2016
1,152
234
76
UK
✟25,051.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Is existence safe? Do we need fear ultimate harm, whether through death or ongoing punishment?

Do we need to measure up to avoid the above fates?

I ask this of non-Christians in this thread.

Underneath what?

But lets not quibble.

Given the answers I am about to give I must presume myself to be thoughtless and dishonest, yet console myself that any apparent presumption of infallibility does not necessarily mean infallibility. Hello Chesterton....:wave:

There is a short verse from the Pure Land...

Whether headed for heaven
Or headed for hell
All is in Amida's hands
Namu amida butsu

Such trust transcends fear, harm or reward, which obviously we can meet with each and every moment.

Ultimately all is in the hands of a Reality the "will" of which is the enlightenment/salvation of all.

Do we need to "measure up"? Heaven forbid we ever think we do, can or will. As my pal Merton once said, "we can never be humble enough".
 
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
20,136
3,175
Oregon
✟926,520.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
Is existence safe?
Existence just is. When I look out towards the Cosmos, everything is in constant change. There's birth and death all happening at the same time.

Do we need fear ultimate harm,...
Not if we are free from Fear. As once said, "There is nothing to fear but fear itself."

...whether through death...
Death is not something to fear. It is the natural order of things.

...or ongoing punishment?
Our souls are an activity of God. Why would God punish Himself after our physical death? That makes no sense to me.

I ask this of non-Christians in this thread.
That's how this person sees things.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Is existence safe?

No, "existence" is not safe, but rational people can create a reasonable degree of safety.

Do we need fear ultimate harm, whether through death or ongoing punishment?

No, while I can understand fearing an untimely death, death itself is not something to fear.

Do we need to measure up to avoid the above fates?

You can't avoid death. At best, you can only delay death.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

nightflight

Veteran
Mar 13, 2006
9,221
2,655
Your dreams.
✟45,570.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Our souls are an activity of God. Why would God punish Himself after our physical death? That makes no sense to me.

Could you explain more of what you mean by our souls being an activity of God? I'm not totally unfamiliar with that idea, I just would like to hear your take on it. What do you think of Maurice Bucke's "revelation" as bolded in post 6?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rajni

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯
Site Supporter
Dec 26, 2007
8,567
3,943
Visit site
✟1,368,855.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Single
I should have given more context to my OP. I "discovered" this sub forum days ago and have read with interest several threads dealing with religion, spirituality and mysticism. Back in the mid-2000s I was an atheist; my agnosticism drifted over the line to a stronger unbelief in God. This was after reading many articles, books, etc. that presented a materialist explanation for the world. However I found this outlook to be rather bleak. At some point in the next couple of years I got the conviction that maybe I was wrong, that maybe there is more to existence than matter. So I seek and seek, trying to find something. So my question was along those lines. I know that we all die, but I am assuming that our existence goes beyond the barriers of physical life; I am looking for feedback from those on a path of some sort.

Consider the account of Maurice Bucke, who wrote a book called Cosmic Consciousness:

It was in the early spring, at the beginning of his thirty-sixth year. He and two friends had spent the evening reading Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Browning, and especially Whitman. They parted at midnight, and he had a long drive in a hansom (it was in an English city). His mind, deeply under the influence of the ideas, images and emotions called up by the reading and talk of the evening, was calm and peaceful. He was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, he found himself wrapped around as it were by a flame-colored
cloud. For an instant he thought of fire, some sudden conflagration in the great city; the next, he knew that the light was within himself. Directly afterwards came upon him a sense of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe. Into his brain streamed one momentary lightning-flash of the Brahmic Splendor which has ever since lightened his life; upon his heart fell one drop of Brahmic Bliss, leaving thenceforward for always an aftertaste of heaven. Among other things he did not come to believe, he saw and knew that the Cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so built and ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one is in the long run absolutely certain. He claims that he learned more within the few seconds during which the illumination lasted than in previous months or even years of study, and that he learned much that no study could ever have taught.

I guess what I am asking is could it be that at the bottom of it all there is eternal safety and bliss? For all of us? Could existence, despite what we see, be this good?
That's pretty much my speculation.



-
 
  • Like
Reactions: nightflight
Upvote 0

Arthra

Baha'i
Feb 20, 2004
7,060
572
California
Visit site
✟86,812.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Is existence safe? Do we need fear ultimate harm, whether through death or ongoing punishment?
Do we need to measure up to avoid the above fates?
I ask this of non-Christians in this thread.

Existence in my personal view is by its nature unsafe... To be alive is to take risks whether we are aware of them or not... So just as there those who are as "safe" as possible one cannot be totally "safe" in this life... So in my belief turning to our Creator for assistance is a natural and reasonable course to take.

Death for me is a window or door to the next world ..a spiritual world or dimension and the good we have done in this life and the positive attributes we have acquired here will serve us in the spiritual life to come.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

twob4me

Shark bait hoo ha ha
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2003
48,618
28,094
58
Here :)
✟237,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This thread has gone through a clean up to remove a lot of Off Topic (OT) posts along with some Flaming posts and those that replied to them. Please stay on topic and stop with the Flaming. Remember you are to be addressing the content of the post not the poster personally.

If you continue to post like you were this thread can and will be closed permanently and those involved may find themselves with staff actions.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Upvote 0

nightflight

Veteran
Mar 13, 2006
9,221
2,655
Your dreams.
✟45,570.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'll be honest here; my interest in this thread and in fact the whole forum was because I was looking for a substitute for Christianity. I had been seeking God for the last few years, after a bitter experience with atheism, and in the last year I found some peace embracing Lutheranism, specifically the teaching on the Sacraments and law and grace. But a few weeks ago I fell away from grace (as I often do) by forgetting that I don't have to measure up to be accepted by God. I've long thought that living under the law makes one a Pharisee or a rebel; the latter is true for me. I feel condemned and I get really mad at God, the world, people. The last four weeks I threw myself into reading a lot of "alternative spirituality", new age, etc. I think that was helpful as far as reminding me that if one has peace with God, he has everything. I thought I was done with Christianity but tonight I was gripped by an awareness that God is gracious and not at all like I tend to imagine Him to be. I'll probably do it all over again shortly though.
 
Upvote 0

Fizzywig

Namu Amida Butsu
May 9, 2016
1,152
234
76
UK
✟25,051.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
I'll be honest here; my interest in this thread and in fact the whole forum was because I was looking for a substitute for Christianity. I had been seeking God for the last few years, after a bitter experience with atheism, and in the last year I found some peace embracing Lutheranism, specifically the teaching on the Sacraments and law and grace. But a few weeks ago I fell away from grace (as I often do) by forgetting that I don't have to measure up to be accepted by God. I've long thought that living under the law makes one a Pharisee or a rebel; the latter is true for me. I feel condemned and I get really mad at God, the world, people. The last four weeks I threw myself into reading a lot of "alternative spirituality", new age, etc. I think that was helpful as far as reminding me that if one has peace with God, he has everything. I thought I was done with Christianity but tonight I was gripped by an awareness that God is gracious and not at all like I tend to imagine Him to be. I'll probably do it all over again shortly though.

Maybe not an alternative to Christianity, more to understand it as A way, and not THE way. A way to come to realise that we are accepted and loved just as we are. No quibbles, no conditions. Gift.

How do I know that. I don't know it as such, but it is the only thing that has truly worked for me. I cannot live and look out at sheep and goats, the potentially lost or saved, or as seeing another as one who is waiting for me to reveal the "true" way to them.....cannot divide in any way.

I do not say this from a pure heaven of experience. I know highs and lows, anxiety and depression......have done, do, and most probably always will. But all this is embraced within a deeper trust that is itself given, not earned, realised, not attained. Gift, pure and simple.
 
Upvote 0