Underground Latter Day Saints

[talitha]

I see you are still missing my whole point. My point is that the RLDS church did not claim to be "another Protestant church". That is an untruth that is being propagated by Talitha

Propagating? I'm propagating now?

, who herself admits that in mere minutes, the person she talked to disclosed, without cover-up, that he was from the RLDS church.

I do NOT admit that. If you actually read my last post, you will see that I told AGAIN how I found out - not from the person in question. He did not disclose anything.

...He certainly had no idea that she was covertly using the internet to do any nefarious digging.

nefarious???

It's a ludicrous claim, sorry. There is a difference between a church claiming to be a Christian church and a church claiming to be "another Protestant church". The RLDS is the former, it is not, and has never claimed to be, the latter.

UGH. I really don't understand why you are soooo eager to argue with me, seeing as you have seen the Light and left the movement......

there, the movement...... does that work for an all-inclusive term?

tal

 

[talitha]

The Community of Christ claims to be a Christian church

That is what I have a problem with.

 

[kiwimac]

There are a lot of people who could be drawn in by that page, and I'm sure that is the intent.

Are you insinuating that the Community of Christ is trying to hide who they are, When they plainly say who they are on the 'Who are we: History" page?

 

[kiwimac]

That is what I have a problem with.

Prove that they are not. If you cannot, how about letting God be the judge (as we are supposed to?)

 

[A New Dawn]

There is a way to save yourself the speculation that the Community of Christ is trying to hide anything, or whether it claims to be something it is not....................

http://www.cofchrist.org/

 

[A New Dawn]

[/B]nefarious???

tal

I apologize. After you posted this, I looked it up and nefarious was not the right word to use. I'll edit my post.

 

[kiwimac]

Note the following from 'Basic Beliefs.'

We are an international Christian church with 250,000 members found in more than fifty nations. Our International Headquarters, including a Temple dedicated to the pursuit of peace, is located in Independence, Missouri. The church was organized in 1830 in New York State.

Our Mission

We proclaim Jesus Christ and promote communities of joy, hope, love, and peace.​

We Offer . . .

• a community of people where the gospel of Jesus Christ is the focus of worship, learning, caring, and mission.​
• an opportunity for genuine spiritual growth and relationship with the Holy Spirit.​
• local congregations where deep friendships are established, individual ideas are valued, and where those special needs find security, care, and support.​
• a faith community that encourages the ministry of all people, including children and youth.​
• a global community with a worldwide mission that values all cultures and celebrates the rich diversity of human life.​
• meaningful opportunities to serve Jesus Christ by helping others and promoting peace.​

Our Faith and Beliefs

Preface
The Good News of Jesus Christ is at the center of the faith and beliefs of Community of Christ. We are a worldwide community and are committed to follow Jesus, bring forth the kingdom of God, and seek together the revealing, renewing presence of the Holy Spirit. We offer here our basic beliefs, not as the last word, but as an open invitation to all to embark on the adventure of discipleship. As we seek God’s continuing guidance, we encourage all people to study the scriptures and think about their experiences as they engage in the life of the church.

God

We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship.

Jesus Christ
We believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, the Word made flesh, the Savior of the world, fully human and fully divine. Through Jesus’ life and ministry, death and resurrection, God reconciles the world and breaks down the walls that divide. Christ is our peace.
For more, see We Proclaim Jesus Christ at www.CofChrist.org/OurFaith/christology.asp.

The Holy Spirit
We believe in the Holy Spirit, Giver of Life, holy Wisdom, true God. The Spirit moves through and sustains creation; endows the church for mission; frees the world from sin, injustice, and death; and transforms disciples. Wherever we find love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control, there the Holy Spirit is working.

Creation
As an expression of Divine love, God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and called them “good.” Everything belongs to God and should be cherished and used justly according to divine purposes. God sees creation as a whole without separation of spirit and element. God calls people of every generation to join with God as stewards in the loving care of creation.

Humanity

Every human being is created in the image of God. In Jesus Christ, God took on the limits of human flesh and culture, and is known through them. We therefore affirm without exception the worth of every human being. We also affirm that God has blessed humankind with the gift of agency: the ability to choose whom or what we will serve within the circumstances of our lives.

Sin
God created us to be agents of love and goodness. Yet we misuse our agency individually and collectively. We take the gifts of creation and of self and turn them against God’s purposes with tragic results. Sin is the universal condition of separation and alienation from God and one another. We are in need of divine grace that alone reconciles us with God and one another.

Salvation
The gospel is the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ: forgiveness of sin, and healing from separation, brokenness, and the power of violence and death. This healing is for individuals, human societies, and all of creation. This new life is the loving gift of God’s grace that becomes ours through faith and repentance. Baptism is how we initially express our commitment to lifelong discipleship. As we yield our lives to Christ in baptism we enter Christian community (the body of Christ) and have the promise of salvation. We experience salvation through Jesus Christ, but affirm that God’s grace has no bounds, and God’s love is greater than we can know.

The Church
God intends Christian faith to be lived in companionship with Jesus Christ and with other disciples in service to the world. The church of Jesus Christ is made of all those who respond to Jesus’ call. Community of Christ is part of the whole body of Christ. We are called to be a prophetic people, proclaiming the peace of Jesus Christ and creating communities where all will be welcomed and brought into renewed relationship with God, and where there will be no poor.

Revelation
We affirm the Living God is ever self-revealing. God is revealed to the world in the testimony of Israel, and above all in Jesus Christ. By the Holy Spirit we continue to hear God speaking today. The church is called to listen together for what the Spirit is saying and then faithfully respond.

Scripture
Scripture is writing inspired by God’s Spirit and accepted by the church as the normative expression of its identity, message, and mission. We affirm the Bible as the foundational scripture for the church. In addition, Community of Christ uses the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants—not to replace the witness of the Bible or improve on it, but because they confirm its message that Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God. When responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied, scripture provides divine guidance and inspired insight for our discipleship.
For more, see Scripture in the Community of Christ at www.CofChrist.org/OurFaith/scripture.asp.

Sacraments
Sacraments are special ministries given to the church to convey the grace of Jesus Christ to his followers and all those he yearns to touch with his compassion. Sacraments are baptism, confirmation, the Lord’s Supper, marriage, blessing of children, laying on of hands for the sick, ordination to the priesthood, and the evangelist’s blessing. In these ministries, God sanctifies common elements of creation to bless human life and to renew and form the church to seek the peaceful kingdom of God.
For more, see The Sacraments at www.CofChrist.org/sacraments/.

Discipleship
Being a Christian is more than holding a list of right ideas; it is about radical obedience to Jesus in every part of life. God’s boundless love sets us free for lives of responsible stewardship in which we generously offer our lives in service to God’s reign. Discipleship is both an inward and outward journey. Jesus calls us to follow him and to invite others to experience the transforming power of his grace

Ministry
Ministry is humble service offered according to the model of Jesus, who calls every disciple to share in ministry for the world. Some disciples are called by God and ordained to priesthood offices to serve the mission of the church in specialized ways. The Holy Spirit gives complementary gifts and abilities to all disciples to equip the body of Christ for its witness in the world.

The Reign of God
The Reign of God is the coming triumph of love, justice, mercy and peace that one day will embrace all of creation. Jesus’ life and ministry were the living expression of this promise. He taught his disciples to pray for the kingdom’s full coming and sent them out into the world to be living emblems of that new creation. “Zion” expresses our commitment to herald God's peaceable kingdom on earth by forming Christ-centered communities in families, congregations, neighborhoods, cities, and throughout the world.

Peace
Peace is God’s shalom: justice, righteousness, wholeness, and the well-being of the entire creation. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, came to preach the kingdom and to be our peace through the cross. The Holy Spirit empowers us for the costly pursuit of peace and justice for all people.

Resurrection and Eternal Life
Christ is risen! Thus we believe that God is God of life, not of death. By faith we share in eternal life even now. In Christ, God’s love finally will overcome all that demeans and degrades the creation, even death itself. Easter also gives us hope that the tragic suffering and death of victims, throughout history, is not the last word. We believe the Holy Spirit will transform all creation to share in the glory of God.

Judgment
The living God whom we serve is a God of justice and mercy. God cares about how we treat our neighbors and enemies and how we make use of creation’s gifts. It matters supremely to God how we welcome the poor, the stranger, the sick, the imprisoned, and the rejected. We affirm in Scripture’s light that Jesus Christ is advocate and judge of the living and the dead.

End Time
We press forward together in service to God, knowing that our labor is not in vain. The future of the creation belongs to the Prince of Peace, not to those who oppress, dominate, or destroy. As we anticipate that future, we devote ourselves to seek Christ’s peace and pursue it. We do not know the day or hour of Christ’s coming but know only that God is faithful. With faith in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, we face the future in hopeful longing, and with the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray: “Thy kingdom come! Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”
​

Enduring Principles and Basic Beliefs

What is the relationship between enduring principles and basic beliefs?


When people try to understand the church’s identity, mission, and message, they bring different ways of perceiving reality, which leads to different questions.


What is the church like? Enduring principles are the underlying truths and affirmations that shape the personality of the church. Enduring principles guide how we live in our communities, families, workplaces, congregations, and cultures. They describe how we experience and share the gospel and the church with others.


What does the church believe? Basic beliefs are the more comprehensive, rational explanations of what the church holds to be true, arranged in categories that are part of the broader Christian tradition. Basic beliefs represent a deepening level of inquiry about the gospel and the church.


We need both ways of expressing the identity, mission, and message of the church, along with the others described in this document, to ensure that people can explore and experience the gospel in ways that are the most informing and transforming for them

Note: Not once does the CoC refer to themselves as a 'Protestant Church.'

 

[Albion]

Note the following from 'Basic Beliefs.'



Note: Not once does the CoC refer to themselves as a 'Protestant Church.'

That's because being a Protestant is not "a Basic Belief," and the statement you reproduced exists for the purpose of listing "Basic Beliefs." Nor is it necessary to use the word Protestant in order to pose as one.

 

[Albion]

I see you are still missing my whole point. My point is that the RLDS church did not claim to be "another Protestant church".

I didn't miss your point. But the RLDS nevertheless does represent itself as being just another Protestant church. What I noted was that you yourself said that it is striving in this direction, which shows that the church wants to see itself that way. It's not somehow a figment of everyone's imagination or an "untruth," much as you like to say that.

And don't assume that my knowledge of the church begins and ends with what you've written in this thread. It appears that you are more than eager to take comfort in the idea that no one here knows the first thing about it but you, however that is not a well-founded notion.

 

[A New Dawn]

I didn't miss your point. But the RLDS nevertheless does represent itself as being just another Protestant church. What I noted was that you yourself said that it is striving in this direction, which shows that the church wants to see itself that way. It's not somehow a figment of everyone's imagination or an "untruth," much as you like to say that.

And don't assume that my knowledge of the church begins and ends with what you've written in this thread. It appears that you are more than eager to take comfort in the idea that no one here knows the first thing about it but you, however that is not a well-founded notion.

I'm thinking you are not reading what I write. I stated before that the RLDS church took the majority of their teachings from Sidney Rigdon, who was a prominent Campbellite preacher. The Campbellites were part of the restoration movement, a movement that includes churches like the Disciples of Christ. They do not consider themselves Protestant in the Protestant tradition. They consider themselves restoration churches. I'd suggest you look in that direction, rather than continue the claim that it just presents itself as something it has never presented itself as.

What I said was what I observed, not what the church is doing, per se. My observations that the church is casting off it's Joseph Smith heritage appears to me to be an attempt to lose those things that tie it to Joseph Smith and become more mainstream, it wasn't meant, necessarily, to imply that it was trying to become protestant. I don't necessarily think it wants to become protestant. There are lots of things that the RLDS believe that are not believed by Protestantism that I don't think they want to lose, like the belief that God is active in the believer's life and actively participates in it, giving guidance and direction in the form of personal revelation.

I hate to say it, but if you knew more than you are letting on, then you are doing a pretty poor job of clearing the air with your comments, since they are just as off-base as Talithas. You may think you know something about the RLDS church, but if you do, it isn't nearly as much as you think you know.

 

[Albion]

I'm thinking you are not reading what I write. I stated before that the RLDS church took the majority of their teachings from Sidney Rigdon, who was a prominent Campbellite preacher. The Campbellites were part of the restoration movement, a movement that includes churches like the Disciples of Christ. They do not consider themselves Protestant in the Protestant tradition. They consider themselves restoration churches. I'd suggest you look in that direction, rather than continue the claim that it just presents itself as something it has never presented itself as.

There are at least two problems with that explanation. One is that it denies--however inventive the rationale--that the church does what we know it does. Either it represents itself in the way that has been claimed or it does not. It doesn't matter WHY it does what it does in that regard, although there is little doubt that it wants to be seen as a typical Protestant church.

The other is that it's silly to speculate that the RLDS wants to return to some mythical Campbellite origins, when Ridgon's main contribution to the cause was to deliver the Book of Mormon to Smith--something no genuine non-denominational Christian have any interest in. And what's more, there is NO close identification between the restorationism of the Campbellites and the restorationism of the Mormons, which would be necessary for that particular theory to make any sense. The worship, beliefs, and practices of the two are quite different from each other.

 

[A New Dawn]

The problem with that explanation is that it denies--however inventive the rationale--that the church does what we know it does.

What do we know that the church does?????????

 

[Albion]

BTW, you raised the question about specific differences between the RLDS and conventional Christianity. Here are some--

-Accepting as scripture something (Book of Mormon) besides the Bible.

-Joseph Smith's "Doctrine and Covenants" is still used in the RLDS/CoC.

-Joseph Smith is not repudiated and is still considered to have been called by God to restore His church. No Christian church agrees to that.

-Governance is done according to the historic Mormon set-up which is unknown in the Christian churches.

-Eight sacraments are recognized. No Christian church does that.

-Bread and the fruit of the vine are NOT used in Communion although they are in every Christian church that observes the Lord's Supper.
...............................................................................................

Yet the RLDS/CoC does represent itself as one among many Evangelical Christian churches, intentionally misleading people into thinking that it is a typical Protestant church body--the point raised in the OP here. The facts speak otherwise about that alleged identity, and we merely say that it is wrong of the church to do this. If others think that it is not wrong, we nevertheless do, and for some of the reasons I've listed here in case anyone wants to know the reasons.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm guessing it is too hard to look those things up to see for yourself? I gave you the link.

I guess guessing right on a couple of them is better than nothing.

Maybe you can answer my question now about telling us what the church does, or what it teaches. You are quite adept as side-stepping the issue after you raise it.

 

[Albion]

I'm guessing it is too hard to look those things up to see for yourself? I gave you the link.

I guess guessing right on a couple of them is better than nothing.

Maybe you can answer my question now about telling us what the church does, or what it teaches. You are quite adept as side-stepping the issue after you raise it.

...and you claim that I don't read what you post! Could you possibly not have seen and read the post of mine that addresses your question and is located exactly ONE post before your rant?

 

[A New Dawn]

There are at least two problems with that explanation. One is that it denies--however inventive the rationale--that the church does what we know it does. Either it represents itself in the way that has been claimed or it does not. It doesn't matter WHY it does what it does in that regard, although there is little doubt that it wants to be seen as a typical Protestant church.

The other is that it's silly to speculate that the RLDS wants to return to some mythical Campbellite origins, when Ridgon's main contribution to the cause was to deliver the Book of Mormon to Smith--something no genuine non-denominational Christian have any interest in. And what's more, there is NO close identification between the restorationism of the Campbellites and the restorationism of the Mormons, which would be necessary for that particular theory to make any sense. The worship, beliefs, and practices of the two are quite different from each other.

Maybe you should look up Campbellite beliefs, too, while you are at it.


I'm seeing that you have no real interest in discussing what really is, only in pointing fingers at what isn't. I'm sorry for butting into your discussion trying to shed the light of truth into it. You appear to have no interest in truth, only in fiction.

 

[A New Dawn]

...and you claim that "I" don't read what you post! Could you possibly have not read the post of mine that is exactly ONE post before this one of yours I'm responding to now?

Because you edited it after I responded to it the first time??????????????????

 

[Albion]

Because you edited it after I responded to it the first time??????????????????

Nice try...but not a correct guess.

Anyway, it's nighty-night time here and everything that needs to be said has been posted.

 

[A New Dawn]

...and you claim that I don't read what you post! Could you possibly not have seen and read the post of mine that addresses your question and is located exactly ONE post before your rant?

Oh, wait, if you are talking about this one, that was my answer to it. You got a couple right. You got a couple half-right, and you got a couple wrong. But I gave you a link, you shouldn't have gotten any wrong.

BTW, you raised the question about specific differences between the RLDS and conventional Christianity. Here are some--

-Accepting as scripture something (Book of Mormon) besides the Bible.

-Joseph Smith's "Doctrine and Covenants" is still used in the RLDS/CoC.

-Joseph Smith is not repudiated and is still considered to have been called by God to restore His church. No Christian church agrees to that.

-Governance is done according to the historic Mormon set-up which is unknown in the Christian churches.

-Eight sacraments are recognized. No Christian church does that.

-Bread and the fruit of the vine are NOT used in Communion although they are in every Christian church that observes the Lord's Supper.
...............................................................................................

Yet the RLDS/CoC does represent itself as one among many Evangelical Christian churches, intentionally misleading people into thinking that it is a typical Protestant church body--the point raised in the OP here. The facts speak otherwise about that alleged identity, and we merely say that it is wrong of the church to do this. If others think that it is not wrong, we nevertheless do, and for some of the reasons I've listed here in case anyone wants to know the reasons.

And no matter how many times you repeat half- and un-truths, it doesn't make it true. Sorry.

 

[kiwimac]

Actually, I know a number of Christian churches which are quite happy to use what ever they have to hand for communion, including water and leavened bread.