Underground Latter Day Saints

[Albion]

They are not LDS, so it doesn't validate Talitha's concerns at all.

Yes, it does. And in spades! In the OP she specifically mentioned both LDS and RLDS. So you've confirmed that the practice is something the RLDS engages in, while arguing at the same time that it remains an open question whether or not the LDS does the same.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes, it does. And in spades! In the OP she specifically mentioned bothe LDS and RLDS. So you've confirmed that the practice is something the RLDS engages in, while arguing at the same time that it remains an open question whether or not the LDS does the same.

Maybe you didn't read my other posts, then, if you are this confused. I specifically stated that the RLDS/CoC is leaving restoration teachings behind. They have moved towards liberal Protestantism. Those who still believe in Joseph Smith and the restoration have left the RLDS church and formed restoration branches.

A caveat is that there are still some older members who do continue to believe in JS, but the RLDS has never embraced the esoteric beliefs that the LDS embrace. They were rejected when the church was reorganized in 1866.

So to recap, most of the people are not being taught about Joseph Smith because they are not teaching Joseph Smith's teachings. Most of the priesthood attend regular seminaries like St. Paul's Theological seminary, for example (liberal, but still an accepted mainstream seminary). And gosh, while not proof, per se, Maranatha Music has agreed to allow the CoC to publish their music in their hymnals (and they generally hold a very tight reign on who they allow to publish their music.)

 

[Albion]

Maybe you didn't read my other posts, then, if you are this confused. I specifically stated that the RLDS/CoC is leaving restoration teachings behind.

Let's just test that theory, shall we? Then we can be sure what's what and who's correct.

Has the RLDS (CoC) repudiated the Book of Mormon? Yes/No?

Does the church teach that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes/No?

They have moved towards liberal Protestantism. Those who still believe in Joseph Smith and the restoration have left the RLDS church and formed restoration branches.

A caveat is that there are still some older members who do continue to believe in JS, but the RLDS has never embraced the esoteric beliefs that the LDS embrace. They were rejected when the church was reorganized in 1866.

So to recap, most of the people are not being taught about Joseph Smith because they are not teaching Joseph Smith's teachings.

But all of that is an alibi IMO and only serves to confirm Talitha's concerns about the church passing itself off as something it is not. You have said that it is moving towards liberal Proetstantism, but that doesn't mean it's arrived! And it's not a Protestant church merely because of the RLDS representing themselves as Protestant or Christian by changing some but not all of its unBiblical teachings.

And the fact that some of Joseph Smith's teachings that come from other writings, not from the Book of Mormon, are not being taught does not mean that the slate has been wiped clean, although I can agree with you that its an improvement. On the other hand, it's not much of a concession, is it, in view of the fact that the RLDS NEVER accepted those writings as the LDS do?

 

[talitha]

just to be clear, Anything that stems from Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is "another gospel" - all of it came from the same root. Whatever multitude of names it wants to go by, it's all the same. You can't get figs from a chinaberry tree...... and I don't understand why the staunch defense of this chinaberry tree if you are now eating figs......

 

[A New Dawn]

And the fact that some of Joseph Smith's teachings that come from other writings, not from the Book of Mormon, are not being taught does not mean that the slate has been wiped clean, although I can agree with you that its an improvement. On the other hand, it's not much of a concession, is it, in view of the fact that the RLDS NEVER accepted those writings as the LDS do?

You seem to be of the mistaken impression that all "restoration beliefs" are equal when the reality is that, aside from the BoM (which does not teach anything significantly different from the Bible), very few of Joseph Smith's teachings are included in the RLDS church. The only other teaching of his that made it to the RLDS church is the plan of salvation, and without the LDS belief in exaltation, it doesn't boil down to anything except a unique forum of universal salvation. You see, very shortly after Joseph Smith started the church, a prominent Campbellite minister by the name of Sidney Rigdon came into the church, and he brought all his teachings with him. The vast majority of what the RLDS church became was from what Sidney Rigdon brought. So your points are not well-taken! You are ignoring what the RLDS church historically taught (and what they didn't teach) and are basing your intense hatred on the mere presence of the Book of Mormon, which is seldom used by the RLDS today.

I'd suggest to you, like I suggested to Talitha, that you familiarize yourself with what the RLDS actually taught (and what they actually teach presently) before jumping in and condemning things. The fact that neither of you know much (if anything) about the RLDS church is problematic when you spread rumors like this around.

 

[A New Dawn]

just to be clear, Anything that stems from Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is "another gospel" - all of it came from the same root. Whatever multitude of names it wants to go by, it's all the same. You can't get figs from a chinaberry tree...... and I don't understand why the staunch defense of this chinaberry tree if you are now eating figs......

Like I said several times, you need to actually know what you are talking about before talking about it.

 

[A New Dawn]

But all of that is an alibi IMO and only serves to confirm Talitha's concerns about the church passing itself off as something it is not. You have said that it is moving towards liberal Proetstantism, but that doesn't mean it's arrived! And it's not a Protestant church merely because of the RLDS representing themselves as Protestant or Christian by changing some but not all of its unBiblical teachings.

Why don't you tell me which unBiblical teachings they are teaching.

Thanks.

 

[Albion]

Why don't you just go ahead and answer the two simple questions I asked you in post #43?

Doing that will settle all of this and show who has been correct and who not.

 

[Albion]

My mistake!

You did answer at least one of the questions.

The Book of Mormon is still a part of the RLDS, and that fact alone marks the church as not a Protestant Christian church. You said that it (BOM) does not teach anything significantly different from the Bible, which is ridiculous to say.

The book, in addition to being a fraud, differs from the Bible in innumerable and very significant ways.

Therefore, Talitha is right to think that the RLDS hides it true colors and misrepresents itself as a Bible-believing church, just as you seem determined to do yourself. And as for any "intense hatred" on my part LOL, try something at least faintly credible if you've chosen to kill the messenger while trying soo very hard to avoid the message.

So what about the second question?


.

 

[A New Dawn]

Because they are not germane. The BoM does not contradict the Bible and the church rarely uses it. They have recognized the 19th century nature of it and have backed away from claiming it as their primary scripture, but have not completely abandoned it for whatever reason they have. I'd prefer that they toss it, but they haven't asked me for my opinion.

They do not teach that Joseph Smith is a prophet any more than they teach that each of us are prophets. Their main teaching is that God is present in our lives today and speaks to us, and that each of us have it within us to be prophets.

So now that we have spoken to the BoM and the prophet business, how is that any different from other churches that have extra-Biblical scripture and a person who claims to stand in the stead of Christ (and I can think of a few that fall into both categories)?

Also, now, please post a non-Biblical teaching that the RLDS teaches.

 

[A New Dawn]

My mistake!

You did answer at least one of the questions.

The Book of Mormon is still a part of the RLDS, and that fact alone marks the church as not a Protestant Christian church. You said that it (BOM) does not teach anything significantly different from the Bible, which is ridiculous to say.

The book, in addition to being a fraud, differs from the Bible in innumerable and very significant ways.

Therefore, Talitha is right to think that the RLDS hides it true colors and misrepresents itself as a Bible-believing church, just as you seem determined to do yourself. And as for any "intense hatred" on my part LOL, try something more credible if you want to kill the messenger while trying soo very hard to avoid the message.

So what about the second question?t

Maybe when you have actually read my posts and speak to what I said (as I don't believe I ever claimed that the RLDS church is a protestant church, or that they have gotten rid of the BoM) I will come back.

 

[Albion]

Because they are not germane. The BoM does not contradict the Bible

Oh, I'm sure you'd like all of us to think that, but it's easy to show that the fable about people who never existed and Jesus in North America clearly contradicts the Bible in many ways.

They have recognized the 19th century nature of it and have backed away from claiming it as their primary scripture, but have not completely abandoned it

Thank you. This does confirm that the church is not Protestant and quite open to being considered non-Christian.

I'd prefer that they toss it, but they haven't asked me for my opinion.

Well, of course it is the nature of the church that is in question here, and we have your word that the church has NOT tossed it.

They do not teach that Joseph Smith is a prophet any more than they teach that each of us are prophets. Their main teaching is that God is present in our lives today and speaks to us, and that each of us have it within us to be prophets.

Very well. I'm as willing to take your word about that as I did when you said that the BOM still has a place in the church and is considered to be scripture (but not their "primary" scripture, as you indicated). I am curious, though, how the BOM can be retained and Smith not be thought a liar for representing himself as more than you say he is considered to be by the church now.

So now that we have spoken to the BoM and the prophet business, how is that any different from other churches that have extra-Biblical scripture and a person who claims to stand in the stead of Christ (and I can think of a few that fall into both categories)?

To have any docruments that are thought by the church to be scripture is considered to be a mark of a cult, hardly of a normal Christian church, Protestant or any other. But BTW, you said that the RLDS was moving towards being a Protestant church and there are NO Protestant churches which have any scripture other than the Bible. Or did you have any in mind?

 

[Albion]

I don't believe I ever claimed that the RLDS church is a protestant church, or that they have gotten rid of the BoM) I will come back.

It hardly matters. I am not spoiling for a debate with you on Mormonism, only on getting to the bottom of whether Talitha's concerns are warranted or not. From what you've admitted, the RLDS is not a Protestant Christian church and does meet the definition that many writers have said amounts to being a cult (I am not saying that it is or is not or that any particular definition of the word is correct to the exclusion of others), so if the RLDS represents itself as just another Christain church to the unwary and uninformed, we know that she is correct to be concerned about those people being misled.

 

[A New Dawn]

Oh, I'm sure you'd like all of us to think that, but it's easy to show that the fable about people who never existed and Jesus in North America clearly contradicts the Bible in many ways.

I said teachings. I was not speaking to the fictional nature of it, but to the teachings it possesses. It's teachings do not contradict the Bible.

To have any docruments that are thought by the church to be scripture is considered to be a mark of a cult, hardly of a normal Christian church, Protestant or any other. But BTW, you said that the RLDS was moving towards being a Protestant church and there are NO Protestant churches which have any scripture other than the Bible. Or did you have any in mind?

I was not thinking of a protestant church, per se. I was thinking of the Catholic church and the SDA. Both of them have extra-Biblical scripture and/or a person who stands in the stead of Christ.

 

[A New Dawn]

It hardly matters. I am not spoiling for a debate with you on Mormonism, only on getting to the bottom of whether Talitha's concerns are warranted or not. From what you've admitted, the RLDS is not a Protestant Christian church and does meet the definition that many writers have said amounts to being a cult (I am not saying that it is or is not or that any particular definition of the word is correct to the exclusion of others), so if the RLDS represents itself as just another Christain church to the unwary and uninformed, we know that she is correct to be concerned about those people being misled.

And I am interested in untruths not being propagated by people who don't know what they are talking about, and who further are not interested in finding out the truth. Neither you nor Talitha can speak to the matter since neither of you know anything about the RLDS church. You see the (LDS) as part of the name and go on assumptions. How truthful is that?

 

[talitha]

You see the (LDS) as part of the name and go on assumptions.
Nope, I understand that the RLDS/CoC/Restoration churches still believe in the book of Mormon, and that is enough for me.

Far as I know they all believe.....

• The Church completely fell into apostacy and was restored by Joseph Smith.
• Jesus is not God incarnate but a saved being. "As He was so are we; as He is, so we shall be," speaking of His divinity.
• Zion (a promised land for Mormons?) is in the United States.
• Sinners go to a pleasurable "Heaven" without repenting during this life and without believing on Jesus; the shed blood of Jesus is not necessary to get people to Heaven.

There's more but that's all I'm thinking of right now - if I'm not mistaken, polygamy and the whole American-Indians-are-the-Lost-Tribe deal are rejected, along with the racism against blacks that characterized earlier Mormonism???

tal

 

[A New Dawn]

You see the (LDS) as part of the name and go on assumptions.
Nope, I understand that the RLDS/CoC/Restoration churches still believe in the book of Mormon, and that is enough for me.

Far as I know they all believe.....

• The Church completely fell into apostacy and was restored by Joseph Smith.
• Jesus is not God incarnate but a saved being. "As He was so are we; as He is, so we shall be," speaking of His divinity.
• Zion (a promised land for Mormons?) is in the United States.
• Sinners go to a pleasurable "Heaven" without repenting during this life and without believing on Jesus; the shed blood of Jesus is not necessary to get people to Heaven.

There's more but that's all I'm thinking of right now - if I'm not mistaken, polygamy and the whole American-Indians-are-the-Lost-Tribe deal are rejected, along with the racism against blacks that characterized earlier Mormonism???

tal

I guess the easiest way to answer that would be

• used to teach that, but don't anymore
• never taught that
• Zion is another name for the millenial kingdom and it is for everyone
• not sure what you mean by "pleasurable heaven", but there are lower glories that unsaved people go to (not even sure that is taught anymore)

Just like to say, since it was ignored when I said it before, the RLDS/CoC are Trinitarians, so they don't believe the stuff that the LDS believe.

And I have no idea what you mean by your last statement. And I'm still waiting for someone to list an unBiblical teaching that the RLDS teaches.

 

[A New Dawn]

I just wanted to be clear about something. I do not believe the Community of Christ to be a Christian church, per se, but it's because of things that I know the church does, and does not, believe, not because of some non-valid assumptions.

 

[Albion]

I just wanted to be clear about something. I do not believe the Community of Christ to be a Christian church, per se, but it's because of things that I know the church does, and does not, believe, not because of some non-valid assumptions.

Understood. For our part, however, you did confirm that the church still considers a spurious writing, the Book of Mormon, to be scripture. That is sufficient information.

Now that we all know where the others are coming from, perhaps we can let the matter rest.

 

[talitha]

I just wanted to be clear about something. I do not believe the Community of Christ to be a Christian church, per se, but it's because of things that I know the church does, and does not, believe, not because of some non-valid assumptions.

This thread was not supposed to be about whether or not the CoC or any of those are Chiristian churches - personally I consider that to be a settled matter. It was about deception. It appears that you agree with me, but yet entered into debate with me - for whatever reason, I'm not sure why that would be.

Understood. For our part, however, you did confirm that the church still considers a spurious writing, the Book of Mormon, to be scripture. That is sufficient information.

Now that we all know where the others are coming from, perhaps we can let the matter rest.

Yes, the matter is settled. It is indeed deception.