Undecided

[sandwiches]

Bitter attacks? I assure you, I am not bitter. But I'm also not stupid. If you were following the thread you would have noticed like I did that He is not interested in Christian advice, even though he may pretend to be.No one who is seriously interested in the Christian faith would call it ignorant and blind.

If those representing Christianity have treated him like you, I think he's right in his assesment.

I'm sure you would have received much good Christian advice over the years on how faith is received, advice that would have work well for those who gave you that advice. This means the advice is not the problem, but yet that advice doesn't work for you. Makes you wonder why.

What I'm really wondering is why you didn't answer the question.

 

[Doveaman]

If those representing Christianity have treated him like you, I think he's right in his assesment.

The assessment was made before the treatment.

What I'm really wondering is why you didn't answer the question.

Because you have been given the answer many times before. What you need now is a miracle. Try praying. You don't necessarily have to believe someone is listening, but if someone is listening you might get a response. If you don't get a response now then try again later. Never give up.

 

[sandwiches]

The assessment was made before the treatment.

Like I said, if those representing Christianity have TREATED him like you, then he's right in his assesment.

Because you have been given the answer many times before. What you need now is a miracle. Try praying. You don't necessarily have to believe someone is listening, but if someone is listening you might get a response. If you don't get a response now then try again later. Never give up.

So, even though I want to have faith, there's nothing *I* can do... So, whether I go to hell or heaven is completely out of my hands... =\

So much for free will.

 

[Doveaman]

Like I said, if those representing Christianity have TREATED him like you, then he's right in his assesment.

My treatment was a result of his assessment, not the cause of it. So your logic does not follow.

So, even though I want to have faith, there's nothing *I* can do... So, whether I go to hell or heaven is completely out of my hands... =\

So much for free will.

Are you even following our conversation? I said try praying.

 

[rockaction]

My treatment was a result of his assessment, not the cause of it. So your logic does not follow.
Are you even following our conversation? I said try praying.

In high school, I prayed for practically 2 years straight when I started to lose my faith. Does this mean I'm off the hook or should I have prayed for several more years? Why did God ignore me?

 

[sandwiches]

In high school, I prayed for practically 2 years straight when I started to lose my faith. Does this mean I'm off the hook or should I have prayed for several more years? Why did God ignore me?

Same here. I prayed, begged, and cried out to god to send me a message. Nothing. Oh but wait... I'm guessing the apologists will say that he did send me a message or several and I just didn't want to listen to them.

 

[sandwiches]

My treatment was a result of his assessment, not the cause of it. So your logic does not follow.

And his assessment may very well be due to treatment like yours. It follows.

Are you even following our conversation? I said try praying.

My mistake. I did pray for years. Why should I expect a different result when I prayed for years when I started losing faith?

 

[razzelflabben]

Same here. I prayed, begged, and cried out to god to send me a message. Nothing. Oh but wait... I'm guessing the apologists will say that he did send me a message or several and I just didn't want to listen to them.

admittedly, I didn't follow this whole discussion, but let me offer this to you all. Sometimes it isn't about the message being sent, sometimes it's about us looking for the message. We recently faced this issue in the middle of enorrnous grief. It wasn't that God wasn't there, it was that we were to focused on the things we were dealing with to see. As to the wanting to see issue, I wouldn't say that, sometimes we are desperately looking and can't see. That is my point, sometimes we can't see for all the cloudiness in our spiritual eyes. The difference being can't vs. won't or not wanting to...I believe both of the posters here wanted to see, I also believe that neither could see...just a thought for what it's worth.

 

[sandwiches]

admittedly, I didn't follow this whole discussion, but let me offer this to you all. Sometimes it isn't about the message being sent, sometimes it's about us looking for the message. We recently faced this issue in the middle of enorrnous grief. It wasn't that God wasn't there, it was that we were to focused on the things we were dealing with to see. As to the wanting to see issue, I wouldn't say that, sometimes we are desperately looking and can't see. That is my point, sometimes we can't see for all the cloudiness in our spiritual eyes. The difference being can't vs. won't or not wanting to...I believe both of the posters here wanted to see, I also believe that neither could see...just a thought for what it's worth.

Thanks for your reply and you could very well be correct, razzel. However, I'll ask you the same thing I asked Doveaman: Why should I expect a different result now than when I prayed for years when I started losing faith?

 

[Doveaman]

My mistake. I did pray for years. Why should I expect a different result when I prayed for years when I started losing faith?

When you say you "started losing faith", how do you define this "faith" you lost? What is faith? And how do you know you lost it? How do you know you had it?

 

[sandwiches]

When you say you "started losing faith", how do you define this "faith" you lost?

I was having doubts about why I should believe in that which I couldn't see or detect in some physical way.

What is faith?

I define it as a bbelief in that which cannot be empirically detected.

And how do you know you lost it?

See above.

How do you know you had it?

Because I used to KNOW without any doubt or uncertainty that God was real and that I had a soul. It wasn't even a question of belief. I KNEW as well as well as I know I live in Texas.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks for your reply and you could very well be correct, razzel. However, I'll ask you the same thing I asked Doveaman: Why should I expect a different result now than when I prayed for years when I started losing faith?

if you are seeing with the same eyes, I don't think you should. It is only when we put on corrective eyewear that things become more focused. What does I Cor. say, we see through a glass dimly...our vision of the Spiritual is clouded, until we learn to see with different eyes, I don't think we can expect to see any better.

 

[Doveaman]

What is faith?

I define it as a bbelief in that which cannot be empirically detected.

I think this is where your problem started. You had blind faith. Not real faith.

Yes, I know you don't like to hear that, but it's true.

How do you know you had it?

Because I used to KNOW without any doubt or uncertainty that God was real and that I had a soul.

How could you possibly have KNOWN that without them being "empirically detected"?

 

[sandwiches]

I think this is where your problem started. You had blind faith. Not real faith.

That is real faith. I use the dictionary definition of 'faith:' "Belief that is not based on proof." Also, the Bible is on my side on this:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Yes, I know you don't like to hear that, but it's true.

Its' not. Sorry, you're wrong.

How could you possibly have KNOWN that without them being "empirically detected"?

Good question. I don't know but I felt like I KNEW for sure. When I finally realized that my feeling of certain knowledge was definitely based on nothing but hopes and beliefs. I started asking myself why I believed the things I did. I couldn't find a reasonable explanation other than fear of hell and wanting to go to heaven. And so began the change that illuminated my whole life in a new light.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is real faith. I use the dictionary definition of 'faith:' "Belief that is not based on proof." Also, the Bible is on my side on this:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."


Its' not. Sorry, you're wrong.



Good question. I don't know but I felt like I KNEW for sure. When I finally realized that my feeling of certain knowledge was definitely based on nothing but hopes and beliefs. I started asking myself why I believed the things I did. I couldn't find a reasonable explanation other than fear of hell and wanting to go to heaven. And so began the change that illuminated my whole life in a new light.

I have a faith test for you...did you act like you believed...I don't mean going to church and reading your bible here, those are nothing more than just actions to go along with the crowd...what I am talking about is peace in the midst of storms, joy in the midst of sorrow, love when you have no reason to love, the things also known as the fruit of the Spirit...Gal. 5 if you aren't familiar with them...the real test of faith is whether or not you are living what you believe.

 

[sandwiches]

I have a faith test for you...did you act like you believed...I don't mean going to church and reading your bible here, those are nothing more than just actions to go along with the crowd...what I am talking about is peace in the midst of storms, joy in the midst of sorrow, love when you have no reason to love, the things also known as the fruit of the Spirit...Gal. 5 if you aren't familiar with them...the real test of faith is whether or not you are living what you believe.

I did. I only felt 'lost' during my acceptance of nonbelief. The thing is I still feel all those things you mention. I know this may not sound humble but I am very loving and empathic person. I'm very accepting and tolerant. I don't hold grudges and almost always do I feel a peace even in dire circumstances. I feel completely at peace with my life. I don't fear death and I embrace the time I have with my family and friends. I'm a very happy and fulfilled person.

So, not only do I lack a religious belief but I also don't feel any need for one.

 

[rockaction]

I have a faith test for you...did you act like you believed...I don't mean going to church and reading your bible here, those are nothing more than just actions to go along with the crowd...what I am talking about is peace in the midst of storms, joy in the midst of sorrow, love when you have no reason to love, the things also known as the fruit of the Spirit...Gal. 5 if you aren't familiar with them...the real test of faith is whether or not you are living what you believe.

I don't know about sandwiches, but before I lost my faith I would have done anything for Christ. I was a really good kid, and almost every part of my life involved faith and prayer.

I think it's rather patronizing of you to claim that people who lost their faith never had any faith to begin with. You want to believe that no one who "truly knew Jesus" would ever turn their back on the faith, but believe me, it happens -- because it happened with me. And it was a struggle -- I didn't want to admit it for several years, and I even went to a Christian university in order to salvage the remnants of my faith. It didn't work.

Faith isn't for me. There are a multiple of reasons as to why I left Christianity, but believe me when I say that the emotional toll was great. If it meant nothing to me, it would have been much easier to either stay in and go through the motions or simply cut and run. I haven't even told my parents I'm an atheist, and I have decided that I won't, ever.

So don't pretend like you know what our lives were like because we call ourselves atheists now.

 

[AV1611VET]

So don't pretend like you know what our lives were like because we call ourselves atheists now.

Please don't expect us to buy the had-it-and-it-didnt-work-for-me story, either.

We are all saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and to say you tried it and it didn't work is tantamount to blasphemy.

In fact, if I read your testimony right, you are saying you had faith and one time, and it left you, despite all your attempts to keep it from abandoning you.

Despite Jesus saying, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

(Not to mention the fact that we are sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the day of redemption; which apparently came prematurely in your case.)

In my opinion -- (which I know you didn't ask for) -- you were either never saved in the first place; or you were saved and sill are, but backslidden.

I hope the latter -- but I'm not your judge.

 

[razzelflabben]

I did. I only felt 'lost' during my acceptance of nonbelief. The thing is I still feel all those things you mention. I know this may not sound humble but I am very loving and empathic person. I'm very accepting and tolerant. I don't hold grudges and almost always do I feel a peace even in dire circumstances. I feel completely at peace with my life. I don't fear death and I embrace the time I have with my family and friends. I'm a very happy and fulfilled person.

So, not only do I lack a religious belief but I also don't feel any need for one.

I am not religious, and yet I love my Lord with a passion to rival any in this life. But God isn't about feelings either, it is important to not confuse the two

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't know about sandwiches, but before I lost my faith I would have done anything for Christ. I was a really good kid, and almost every part of my life involved faith and prayer.

not by deeds...that is scripture

I think it's rather patronizing of you to claim that people who lost their faith never had any faith to begin with.

I didn't say that, you must be referring to someone else...

You want to believe that no one who "truly knew Jesus" would ever turn their back on the faith, but believe me, it happens -- because it happened with me. And it was a struggle -- I didn't want to admit it for several years, and I even went to a Christian university in order to salvage the remnants of my faith. It didn't work.

Faith isn't for me. There are a multiple of reasons as to why I left Christianity, but believe me when I say that the emotional toll was great. If it meant nothing to me, it would have been much easier to either stay in and go through the motions or simply cut and run. I haven't even told my parents I'm an atheist, and I have decided that I won't, ever.

So don't pretend like you know what our lives were like because we call ourselves atheists now.

since none of this resembles what I said, I'll leave it to someone who holds these views.