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I think a lot of folks today teach we will all have to be killed, and there will be no rapture. They mock God's Word, calling it an "escape plan".
Satan controls the whole world.
The Rapture.... is not the "second coming". These are two separate events.
Can you expand?Well then one of them is false, and it's definitely not the second coming.
-CryptoLutheran
Can you expand?
The rapture is when God removes the church.. into the sky, heaven... Christ meets us in the air.. He does not come to earth.
The second coming is at the end of the tribulation and we come with Him in our new incorruptible glorious heavenly bodies.
I agree with you.In a sense it is an escape, but not from persecution by men but He won't turn His own hand against us. 1 Thessalonians 5:9
Seeing the rapture in Revelation 6:12-13 and evidenced by the saints in heaven in Revelation 7, we're not here for the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God's wrath, aside from the 144,000, but they are specifically protected.
So yes, we may suffer, we may be martyred, beheaded, starved, beaten, because it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:. However, we won't be stung by locusts that have stings that cause excruciating agony for 5 months, we won't be gnawing our tongues in pain, we won't be seeking death and unable to find it, we won't be crushed by 60 pound hailstones.
God be praised for that. We may suffer tribulation but God will be our avenger.
I agree with you.
Death is an escape, but I do not see some here saying death does not happen, because I do not believe in death. To claim there is no rapture because it is an escape is the same as claiming there is no death, because it is an escape.
The reason is because God claims the church is completed. God has to rapture the living. Paul does not say we who are alive, and remain, will all be struck by lightning and killed at the Lord's return. Paul does not claim that we who are alive, and remain, will be forced to board an airplane and flown up into the heavens. The most logical thing is what Paul wrote. Thousands of things could have been the means to remove the church from the earth, but still would not be an escape. God says it is the end period.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The church teaches false doctrine of a bodily resurrection. When are you going to give up that false teaching? Paul has a reason for placing all of the church in the air, and it is not about heaven or earth. It is about the restoration of Adam and all Adam's descendants into Paradise. Paradise at the 6th seal will not be in heaven nor earth. But only the church will be in Paradise. The only humans, sealed between the 6th and 7th seal on earth are the 144K Jewish male virgins, they are the Lamb's disciples on earth. The rest of the church is in Paradise. Jesus Christ as the Lamb will harvest mankind, starting with Israel, during the Trumpets. This is the separation of the sheep and goats. Then the harvest of the nations. This is the wheat and the tares. It was all written down in the Gospels. John recorded the actual events and they are happening now.God's word isn't being mocked.
False teaching is being rejected because it is false.
-CryptoLutheran
The church teaches false doctrine of a bodily resurrection.
Edstano said,
(Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."
Julie B67 said,
The word "keep" in this verse is Greek 5083 tereo -means to guard (from loss or injury) over by keeping an eye on. If these were raptured people, God would not need to do so.
My reply, OK, If the word "Keep" means to guard per Greek, then explain how will God guard us from being beheaded Rev.20:4, ---- 1/3 of the waters became wormwood and many people died Rev 8:11, ----1/3 of the sea became blood Rev.8:9, ---- Locusts came upon the earth with the power of Scorpions to hurt the people for five months Rev.9:10, -----people were scorched by the heat of the Sun Rev. 16:9? Remember there will be millions of people that will need to be guarded.
JulieB67 said, "The wedding takes place in here on earth after the tribulation."
My reply, Rev.19, "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude IN HEAVEN shouting: Hallelujah" They were cheering the condemnation of the great prostitute. The heavenly scene continues in verse 6-7 "Hallelujah for our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the WEDDING OF THE LAMB has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean , was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
The above scene takes place in heaven and not on earth.
I need help explaining how to post quotes.
Who is Jesus talking to in Revelation 3:10?
-CryptoLutheran
Jesus is talking to the church of Philadelphia which is the present church that includes me.
Jesus goes on to say, "I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name.
That's the one verse that pre tribbers whip out to try and defend their position, totally out of context, and it's such a stretch that it makes Olympic Gymnasts envious.
So you subscribe to the church-age theory of interpretation.
May I ask, why? On what hermeneutical and exegetical grounds do you base this interpretation on?
Doesn't it make far more sense that St. John who says he's writing to the seven churches which are in Asia is, in fact, writing to the seven churches which are in Asia? And that the words spoken to the Church in Philadelphia is very much to them?
And why do you think Philadelphia represents the modern church? Why not one of the other churches to whom the Apocalypse was written?
It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made without any real exegesis being done with the text.
He's been coming soon for two thousand years, and it may be another two thousand.
What we have are God's promises to us through the Gospel, that we belong to Jesus Christ. And so no matter what this world throws at us, we have our salvation, our security, our confidence by the grace of God, through faith, in Jesus Christ who suffered, was crucified, dead, buried, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and is coming again on the Last Day as judge of the living and the dead.
Glory to God, the day is coming when the dead shall rise, death shall be no more, and God will make all things new. And there will be life everlasting in the World to Come. Even unto the ages of ages.
That's the Christian hope.
The whole Dispensationalist enterprise is not only terrible eschatology, not only does it play fast and loose with the Scriptures without any care or concern about their context, it--at its core--is another (and therefore false) gospel. And a false gospel is no gospel at all. Indeed, the Apostle calls it anathema.
-CryptoLutheran
Oh, I know. I grew up believing this stuff. I used to argue for it too. I used to use a lot of the same arguments, and I used the same proof-texts. Which, fortunately, is also how I know that the arguments are bad, and the proof-texts don't support the position. Because any serious engagement with the texts will cause the house of cards to fall.
What's important is that when the house of cards does fall for someone, that they have a firmer foundation in the truth upon which to stand on the other side. For me that was the realization that what I started to see for myself in Scripture was simply what Christians have always believed. The shifting sand of Dispensationalism provided no stability, but the historic, consistent faith of God's Church over the last two thousand years, built solidly upon the foundation of the Apostles and the Scriptures themselves is rock solid.
-CryptoLutheran
That's where you're wrong. The Great Tribulation is a period of men led by the Antichrist persecuting Christians. Those who do not worship the world leader (the beast) will be killed. That's by the hand of men, that's Satan and his antichrist. after the 7th seal is when the wrath of God begins. The saints are pulled out before that after the 6th seal.
Seal 1/White Horse: Conquest, 2 ways this can be, a conqueror who does so by annexing other countries, because violence/world war is the 2nd horseman not the first, OR it can be a disease, that conquers the world without war, I actually lean towards this second possibility. The coronavirus has opened my eyes to this possibility, seeing the way the world reacts to a pandemic. I don't necessarily think that this coronavirus is the white horseman, but I do think a coronavirus that is far more deadly may be the white horseman, as Coronavirus is named for its appearance of having a corona, which means "crown" and a crown was given unto him, maybe a mutant strain deriving from this one. If so, praise the Lord that Jesus will return to us soon.
Seal 2/Red Horse: Violence, most likely a world war, but in general peace being taken from the earth, it could just be civil unrest, but it'd need to be violent and people being killed in great numbers, worldwide.
Seal 3/Black Horse: Economic collapse and famine
Seal 4/Pale Horse: the death tallies from all these events that total 1/4 of the world's population, including some increase in animal attacks.
Seal 5/Martyred saints start appearing: THIS is where you really see the great tribulations, people killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ, and John describes them as souls, He knows they are not whole people but just their spirits.
Seal 6/Sun and Moon Darken, Matthew 24 describes the same event as the gathering of the elect. This is the rapture.
Seal 7/God's Wrath begins.
So the millions of (mostly young men) who went to war and gave their lives and the efforts of countries and societies to have war economies are inconsequential and it was just the simple fact that some prayers were said that stopped Hitler?? I..I don't know what to say!!Ya... but Hitler did that in the late 30's and was still defeated by the simple fact that there where people praying for defeat of his evil rebellion.
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