Undecided on the Rapture Timing

Douggg · Jul 28, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

This is my view. Which I borrowed the name from Luke 21:34 kjv, any time found in the kjv of that verse. I am pretty sure that this is what you are looking for. btw, you might like to participate in my thread Where do you fit ?

compared to the pre-trib view....

My view accounts for the possibility that the rapture could happen before the 70th week begins (i.e. called the pre-trib view). But it may not. But has to happen before the Day of the Lord begins.

Dave L · Jul 28, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Jesus and Paul say it happens on the last day after the resurrection. There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture. It's a false prophecy popular today.

ZNP · Jul 28, 2020

Heavenhome said:
I don't have a definitive answer and having also spent a fair amount of time studying it have come to the conclusion that I leave it in Gods hand. I firmly believe that some things we may not have the full picture of until they actually happen.
In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter?

I guess I would, if pushed tend more to mid tribulation, but having said that I am happy to do what Jesus said which was to be prepared as the wise virgins and of course : "Watch and pray".

We should be prepared for His return at anytime.

So you subscribe to the pan trib doctrine (it will all pan out in the end). Me too.

ZNP · Jul 28, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Understanding the rapture timing is really very simple:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul.

Why does Paul include "and remain"?

shilohsfoal · Jul 28, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

You won't be to terribly upset if you wasn't raptured would you?
I mean if you could Inherit the earth someday, would that be good enough for you?

ZNP · Jul 28, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
You won't be to terribly upset if you wasn't raptured would you?
I mean if you could Inherit the earth someday, would that be good enough for you?

Nope, I want to inherit Christ.

ewq1938 · Jul 28, 2020

ZNP said:
Why does Paul include "and remain"?

It means to "remain alive" in this context.

G4035
περιλείπω
perileipō
per-ee-li'-po
From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

G4035
περιλείπω
perileipō
Thayer Definition:
1) to leave over
2) to remain over, to survive
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4012 and G3007
Citing in TDNT: 4:194,*

ZNP · Jul 28, 2020

ewq1938 said:
It means to "remain alive" in this context.

G4035
περιλείπω
perileipō
per-ee-li'-po
From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

G4035
περιλείπω
perileipō
Thayer Definition:
1) to leave over
2) to remain over, to survive
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4012 and G3007
Citing in TDNT: 4:194,*

So you don't interpret it to mean that some Christians have already been raptured and those that still remain are taken at this point. I guess that means you also don't interpret first fruits to mean first fruits and you don't interpret the man child to mean anything at all, also the 144,000 could not refer to an actual number. Am I correct?

ewq1938 · Jul 28, 2020

ZNP said:
So you don't interpret it to mean that some Christians have already been raptured and those that still remain are taken at this point.

No, because there is only one mass bodily rapture and it is of those who are "alive and remain" at the second coming. They are changed into immortals and then raptured/caught upwards to meet Christ in the clouds.

I guess that means you also don't interpret first fruits to mean first fruits and you don't interpret the man child to mean anything at all, also the 144,000 could not refer to an actual number. Am I correct?

No.

ZNP · Jul 28, 2020

ewq1938 said:
No, because there is only one mass bodily rapture and it is of those who are "alive and remain" at the second coming. They are changed into immortals and then raptured/caught upwards to meet Christ in the clouds.

No.

Do you mean no that is not correct and if so can you clarify those items?

Albion · Jul 28, 2020

Heavenhome said:
I don't have a definitive answer and having also spent a fair amount of time studying it have come to the conclusion that I leave it in Gods hand. I firmly believe that some things we may not have the full picture of until they actually happen.
In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter?

Bingo! The best possible answer to the original post's question...and to the writer's worries.

ZNP · Jul 28, 2020

I always find the idea of one mass rapture to be very weird and discordant with the Bible. In Luke 9 the Lord sends out the 12 apostles. In Luke 10 He sends out 70 others. In addition you see 5,000 who are fed, you see some that are convalescing in the Inn after being beaten and robbed. In Acts you see 500 witnesses. We have apostles, others, witnesses, those that come to see, hear and be fed, and those who are being nursed back to life. That has been my experience.

In Revelation it describes the Manchild being raptured to the heavens and Satan being cast out, and then the Lord coming from Heaven with His army to defeat Satan which has been cast to earth. Are those who are simply listening to the Lord to be fed, and those who are being nursed back to life going to be caught up to do battle with Satan in the heavens?

In Revelation there are 7 churches. To many of these churches the Lord talks about some overcoming, only to one church, Philadelphia, does He say that He will keep the entire church from the hour of trial. This also has been my experience, perhaps 6/7ths of the churches have some overcomers, it is rare to find an entire church that is on point.

I think that is the way it is. Some like Mary will receive the Lord's word, no issue. Others like Zacharias and doubting Thomas need to see the nail prints in the hands first. Some are all in when called to follow the Lord, others have excuses, commitments, and various reasons why it isn't convenient right now, maybe later.

ewq1938 · Jul 28, 2020

ZNP said:
Do you mean no that is not correct and if so can you clarify those items?

I think most of those things are off topic to the timing of the rapture so I wouldn't comment on them.

shilohsfoal · Jul 28, 2020

ZNP said:
Nope, I want to inherit Christ.

Where do you think Christ will stay when he comes to earth?

Choose Wisely · Jul 28, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
Well I'm confused where it says the verse in Jeremiah about Jacob's Trouble is the 7 year tribulation, what if that's another prophesy that's already been fulfilled.

The 70th week of Daniel has not been fullfilled.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
Also I am confused why 1 Corinthians and 2 Thessalonians say "the last trumpet" and "trump of God", what are these referring to?

The "last trumpet" is blown of the Jewish Feast of Trumpets...........and it will be blown when the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured prewrath.............at the 6th seal. He will send His angels to gather the ELECT from heaven and earth.
The "trump of God" is the voice of God...........when the Lord Himself comes for His Church. This will occur before the 7 seven seals are opened. The is the pretribulation, pre 70th week rapture.

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
There are no other instances in scripture that talk about it. Unless you go to the post-trib position and say those refer to the angel trumpets talked about in Revelation. That's why I have to use mental gymnastics in assuming this trumpet means something else that's not stated anywhere else in scripture. And why does it say "last trumpet", will there be other trumpets before the rapture? Where in scripture does it talk about that?

The reason no one can properly answer your questions is that there are two raptures........one pretrib for the Church and ............one prewrath for the 12 tribes across the earth. The Nation of Israel remains on the earth. It appears that 1/3 of the people will flee to a place of protection.

eleos1954 · Jul 28, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

It's simple. The only rapture (caught up) that happens is when Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens and no one knows when that will be.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up (raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Rachel20 · Jul 28, 2020

Post-trib leaves no righteous humans to repopulate the earth, since the righteous would have all been raptured at the 2nd coming, leaving only the wicked. To get around this problem, I've heard some claim a third category (not righteous enough for rapture, not wicked enough for everlasting fire). But in scripture there are only 2 categories of people from the nations at the sheep & goat judgement Matthew 25:33.

Timtofly · Jul 28, 2020

JulieB67 said:
I choose to believe Christ and Paul and the certain events that they say "must happen" before our gathering back to him.

The day of the Lord will happen when least expected, that's the point. When will people be "not" expecting him? When they believe Christ has already returned. That's the point of Paul's teaching in 1st Thessalonians chapter 5.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

That's why I posted in my previous post about when will this world ever feel peace and safety? When they believe Christ has returned.

The antichrist/Satan will proclaim to be God and people will fall away and believe it. Because many are "expecting" Christ to come before him. And again it's God that sends the strong delusion because people would rather believe the lie.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
Transformed in the Greek is 3345-"Metaschematizo, it means to transfigure or disguise.

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

We see he has two horns like a lamb (symobolic of Christ) but spoke as a dragon.

No, he has not sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God yet. He is in fact being held by Michael at this point. After that battle he will be thrown out of Heaven. This is future because it will be the testimony of the Saints that Christ taught is their way of overcoming him.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night

That is how Satan has been spending his time.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

This coincides with,

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life..

Some will be tried during this time. But they will overcome him by the word.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

We know Christ has shortened the time.

Again, this battle with Michael is future. He's the one that's been with Satan (even talked about in Jude) and once he stands up that battle happens, he will be thrown out.

Question, you say that the pretrib rapture comes like a thief in the night. But how do you explain this verse which clearly states the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night?

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

We can't seperate his coming/The day of the Lord into 2 events. Especially with verses like this. It will not work.

The Day of the Lord is the whole Millennium. The tribulation is a short period of only 3.5 years now. Then Satan may get an additional 3.5 years. Satan's 3.5 years splits the Second Coming in half. That is why it has two parts.

We do not know if Peter was in agreement with Paul, and if Paul was in agreement with John. Both Peter and John listened to all the teachings of Jesus Christ. They both gave their own interpretations and memories. None of them contradict on a practical over all view. The issue is that eschatology wants to get it down to a second by second play of a 7 year period. Then when it does not work out, they change things around to force all Scripture where it may not belong.

Maria Billingsley · Jul 28, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I have been trying to study this for the longest time and I just can't seem to come to peace with any position. I want to make sure the position is correct and not just go by what I would prefer (which would be pre-trib of course, though it would be cool to see the events of Revelation play out). I would love to hear arguments from both sides even though I heard most of them and still can't come to a conclusion that satisfies my conscience. With the post-trib side, it usually denies dispensationalism and that the church replaced Israel which I do not agree with. Yet with the pre-trib side, it seems as if I need to do a lot of mental gymnastics around the scriptures to prove it. I couldn't really find a resting place on either camp so I'm just hear to here arguments from both sides, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and amillennialism too.

Welcome! It would be difficult for you to consider other end time scenarios if you are not will to let go of teachings that originated from the 19th Century. You could start with "The Great Disappointment" , presented by the William Miller. He set the stage for such things which disappointed many and many became lost.
You are not at peace because the Holy Spirit is telling you to let go of doctrines of men and open your eyes to the one and only truth. Be blessed.

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

timothyu · Jul 28, 2020

Every generation hopes they can escape the death sentence

Undecided on the Rapture Timing

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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