Undecided on the Rapture Timing

BABerean2 · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
Well you are clearly not pre-trib rapture. But in per-trib rapture Christians are raptured so as to avoid the terrible days ahead. Of course anyone who converts to Christianity after the rapture will have to go through the tribulation and most will be killed during it but i think a few will have to survive and they go on to re-populate the earth, these are the ones gathered (ie protected) right at the end.

The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The word "Christian" is not found in the Book of Revelation.

However, those under the blood of the Lamb are found in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ says the "lampstands" are a symbol of the churches. This symbol is found in chapter 11.

.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

Timtofly said:
Satan controls the whole world. He is an angel. He is not limited by a human physical body. God literally allows Satan free reign on human beings. Humans will be his "toys" for 3.5 years. If you think Nero, Hitler, Stalin, or Mao were bad. Wait till an angel of death is unleashed without any restraint on humanity. At points, his army from sheol will be used as well. It will not get better, it will get extremely wicked. Any who think the church; men, woman, and children are subjected to Satan, they have to be very twisted in their thinking.

It won't be the case that you resist and a demon appears and zaps you into a pile of ash. Any persecution, killing etc will be done by people doing the bidding of the AC / FP.
Like the SS or NAzis in WW2 but much more widespread of course.

Or look at todays China with the social credit system, as soon as you do or say something against the political system of the day it would not be long b4 henchmen would show up, maybe even just minutes in some cases.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I'm thinking about 3.5 years...

You are missing the point. The argument was if a rapture happened now, how long before those 3.5 years (the 2nd half of the 7yrs) began and the answer it could still be a decade or more as it will still take time for the AC / FP to appear and then take control etc, remember, they actually help the world at first and for the 1st 3.5 years its all peaceful (except possibly for Christians of course, those who convert post rapture)

If a rapture happened now some guy couldn't just show up tomorrow and say, right, i'm in charge now. He wins over people who then give him power plus sets up a false religion etc. All this will take time. Yes when He is in power and calls himself God in the rebuilt temple, then yes the next 3.5 years are hell for everyone on earth but not till then. Ergo about a generation if a rapture were to happen today.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
So the millions of (mostly young men) who went to war and gave their lives and the efforts of countries and societies to have war economies are inconsequential and it was just the simple fact that some prayers were said that stopped Hitler?? I..I don't know what to say!!

In any case, the next time round prayer won't help stop him. Only Jesus returning will stop him. Until then he will have his way militarily and politically once he is in power.

What I'm saying is that while the "church" is still on this earth, we have 2.2 billion people who are Christians who should be praying..

Even at the very least we have these people who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and we are the body of Christ on this earth. We are His hands and feet.

During the second World War... we had people from Canada, the US, Australia and other places giving their lives for their friends in other lands.. That is the greatest love..

That is the results of having the Church and the Holy Spirit on this earth.. Remove it and there is no hope.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
What I'm saying is that while the "church" is still on this earth, we have 2.2 billion people who are Christians who should be praying..

Even at the very least we have these people who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and we are the body of Christ on this earth. We are His hands and feet.

During the second World War... we had people from Canada, the US, Australia and other places giving their lives for their friends in other lands.. That is the greatest love..

That is the results of having the Church and the Holy Spirit on this earth.. Remove it and there is no hope.

History has many examples of peoples who rose and defeated dictators and war mongering oppressors and yet who weren't Christians.
The truth is Hitler and Japan were always almost inevitably going to lose WW2 when they were up against countries like the USA and Russia along with other countries not dominated at the time by Germany or Japan (Australia, Canada etc).
In other words, Hitler and Japan bit off more than they could chew and things would have have to have gone in their favor almost all the time for them to win.
While prayer may have helped, Germany and Japan were not run by supernatural powers, just deluded or mistaken men and political systems that badly misjudged the 'opportunity' that they saw.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
So the millions of (mostly young men) who went to war and gave their lives and the efforts of countries and societies to have war economies are inconsequential and it was just the simple fact that some prayers were said that stopped Hitler?? I..I don't know what to say!!

In any case, the next time round prayer won't help stop him. Only Jesus returning will stop him. Until then he will have his way militarily and politically once he is in power.

On another note.... another instance where Hollywood destroys the truth.... in the movie "Dunkirk".

My father, not old enough to go to war... even though he tried and got turned away....Remembers well the time when those soldiers were rescued from across the English Channel.

He was appalled at the movie..

Here is the truth of the Dunkirk rescue...

All those soldiers were pinned against the English channel.. No escape.. They were going to be slaughtered.

But, Churchill called for a day, or a week, my father was not sure, of prayer... For all allied countries to pray.. take the time and pray for these men trapped at Dunkirk.

My dad's family had no radio or TV or phone.. He doesn't even know how everyone knew.. but everyone did know.. Throughout the land.. And my dad lived on a farm in the countryside... away from the town..
Without social media.. the word got out and people answered the call and prayed.

If you know anything about the English Channel... it is almost always a treacherous body of water..

However, as the people prayed.. the Channel went calm as a bottle. Anyone and everyone with a boat headed for Dunkirk. Big boats and even little row boats. Filling their boats with soldiers so that they had mere inches of free-board.

Any other day the trip with this cargo, would have been impossible and suicide.

On top of that.. a fog rolled in.. High enough off the water for all the boats to navigate. Yet also high enough that the enemy bombers could do nothing to endanger the men and rescuers below...

These two conditions are very rare.. To happen at the same time.. and at that particular time was nothing short than Gods hand moved by the prayers of the body of Christ.

The movie.. pathetic... Clear skies.. planes flying around... What a poor display of the truth.

That event turned the war around. There are other important events and battles.. but that was the one thing that was a make or break it.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The word "Christian" is not found in the Book of Revelation.

However, those under the blood of the Lamb are found in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ says the "lampstands" are a symbol of the churches. This symbol is found in chapter 11.

.

Anyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord & savior is a Christian even if not specifically labelled as such.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
You are missing the point. The argument was if a rapture happened now, how long before those 3.5 years (the 2nd half of the 7yrs) began and the answer it could still be a decade or more as it will still take time for the AC / FP to appear and then take control etc, remember, they actually help the world at first and for the 1st 3.5 years its all peaceful (except possibly for Christians of course, those who convert post rapture)

If a rapture happened now some guy couldn't just show up tomorrow and say, right, i'm in charge now. He wins over people who then give him power plus sets up a false religion etc. All this will take time. Yes when He is in power and calls himself God in the rebuilt temple, then yes the next 3.5 years are hell for everyone on earth but not till then. Ergo about a generation if a rapture were to happen today.

I'm pretty sure that they are much closer than you think to these events taking place.

Satan has always, at anytime, had a leader in the wings.. ready to pounce..

Just look how fast the US went down hill with one police officer committing a terrible crime and within the week.. chaos.

Even into Canada. In my small town... fanatics.... shouting for things that they don't even understand.

Fast... it can happen fast.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
On another note.... another instance where Hollywood destroys the truth.... in the movie "Dunkirk".

My father, not old enough to go to war... even though he tried and got turned away....Remembers well the time when those soldiers were rescued from across the English Channel.

He was appalled at the movie..

Here is the truth of the Dunkirk rescue...

All those soldiers were pinned against the English channel.. No escape.. They were going to be slaughtered.

But, Churchill called for a day, or a week, my father was not sure, of prayer... For all allied countries to pray.. take the time and pray for these men trapped at Dunkirk.

My dad's family had no radio or TV or phone.. He doesn't even know how everyone knew.. but everyone did know.. Throughout the land.. And my dad lived on a farm in the countryside... away from the town..
Without social media.. the word got out and people answered the call and prayed.

If you know anything about the English Channel... it is almost always a treacherous body of water..

However, as the people prayed.. the Channel went calm as a bottle. Anyone and everyone with a boat headed for Dunkirk. Big boats and even little row boats. Filling their boats with soldiers so that they had mere inches of free-board.

Any other day the trip with this cargo, would have been impossible and suicide.

On top of that.. a fog rolled in.. High enough off the water for all the boats to navigate. Yet also high enough that the enemy bombers could do nothing to endanger the men and rescuers below...

These two conditions are very rare.. To happen at the same time.. and at that particular time was nothing short than Gods hand moved by the prayers of the body of Christ.

The movie.. pathetic... Clear skies.. planes flying around... What a poor display of the truth.

That event turned the war around. There are other important events and battles.. but that was the one thing that was a make or break it.

Sure, there may have been a miracle here or there, both for allies and for some lucky Germans / Japs if God didn't wan them to die, but the war was always likely going to be lost by Germany and Japan, they just took on too much and underestimated the resolve of the free countries as well as the sheer ability of the american economy of the time to produce weapons and arms, planes, ships tanks etc.
There was no way they could match that.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
History has many examples of peoples who rose and defeated dictators and war mongering oppressors and yet who weren't Christians.
The truth is Hitler and Japan were always almost inevitably going to lose WW2 when they were up against countries like the USA and Russia along with other countries not dominated at the time by Germany or Japan (Australia, Canada etc).
In other words, Hitler and Japan bit off more than they could chew and things would have have to have gone in their favor almost all the time for them to win.
While prayer may have helped, Germany and Japan were not run by supernatural powers, just deluded or mistaken men and political systems that badly misjudged the 'opportunity' that they saw.

Check out my post #186.

Never underestimate the power of prayer and praying Christians.

Hitler came very very close to succeeding.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I'm pretty sure that they are much closer than you think to these events taking place.

Satan has always, at anytime, had a leader in the wings.. ready to pounce..

Just look how fast the US went down hill with one police officer committing a terrible crime and within the week.. chaos.

Even into Canada. In my small town... fanatics.... shouting for things that they don't even understand.

Fast... it can happen fast.

America has 320 million people, you saw a few thousand people protest, at time destructively, and the media hyped it up for all it was worth. In reality it was and still is a storm in a teacup for the majority of the 320 million americans.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Check out my post #186.

Never underestimate the power of prayer and praying Christians.

Hitler came very very close to succeeding.

yes, very close to succeeding in killing those men trapped at the time, or taking them prisoner. You just don't know that that event made the difference, the war may have taken longer but you don't know. Also, once the US had the A-bomb, it was over for both Germany and Japan, regardless of anything else really.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I'm pretty sure that they are much closer than you think to these events taking place.

Satan has always, at anytime, had a leader in the wings.. ready to pounce..

Just look how fast the US went down hill with one police officer committing a terrible crime and within the week.. chaos.

Even into Canada. In my small town... fanatics.... shouting for things that they don't even understand.

Fast... it can happen fast.

Well, race relations have been a contentious issue in the US for a LONG time, whatever is happening and wherever these protests and BLM etc lead to, it has not been fast. It has taken generations in fact to lay the groundwork etc.

ZNP · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
While prayer may have helped, Germany and Japan were not run by supernatural powers, just deluded or mistaken men and political systems that badly misjudged the 'opportunity' that they saw.

If Germany had not attacked Russia but had kept a single focus on the Battle of Britain the war could have gone completely different. Or if the Germans had prevented the evacuation at Dunkirk the war would have gone completely different. Or if Germany had been the first to get the nuclear bomb the war could have gone completely different.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

ZNP said:
If Germany had not attacked Russia but had kept a single focus on the Battle of Britain the war could have gone completely different. Or if the Germans had prevented the evacuation at Dunkirk the war would have gone completely different. Or if Germany had been the first to get the nuclear bomb the war could have gone completely different.

Yes, if the majority of events had gone their way, but they misjudged things badly and the majority of things did not go their way.
They and Japan simply bit off more than they could chew, they were never going to prevail, not once America entered the war.
Only if they had developed the A-bomb first might (even that may not have been enough though) they have stood a chance but that did not happen.

ZNP · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
Yes, if the majority of events had gone their way, but they misjudged things badly and the majority of things did not go their way.
They and Japan simply bit off more than they could chew, they were never going to prevail, not once America entered the war.
Only if they had developed the A-bomb first might (even that may not have been enough though) they have stood a chance but that did not happen.

The majority of events did go their way until Dunkirk, and then for some bizarre reason they didn't finish Britain off. They stopped bombing air force installations and instead attacked cities. Then they just quit and went after Russia. If they hadn't done that they would have finished off Britain and the US wouldn't have even entered the war in Europe. Do you really think after Pearl Harbor anyone in the US would have supported war in Europe if we didn't have a single ally? Hitler could have, should have and planned to have conquered all of Europe by the time Pearl Harbor, if he had stuck to his plan the US never enters the war in Europe.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

ZNP said:
The majority of events did go their way until Dunkirk, and then for some bizarre reason they didn't finish Britain off. They stopped bombing air force installations and instead attacked cities. Then they just quit and went after Russia. If they hadn't done that they would have finished off Britain and the US wouldn't have even entered the war in Europe. Do you really think after Pearl Harbor anyone in the US would have supported war in Europe if we didn't have a single ally? Hitler could have, should have and planned to have conquered all of Europe by the time Pearl Harbor, if he had stuck to his plan the US never enters the war in Europe.

Come on, seriously, you can't have WW2 become the big deal it was UNLESS things went Germany's way (and Japan's too for that matter) AT THE START. Thats kind of why it took 5 years and a A-bomb to end it.
They weren't complete imbecille's and had good tactics etc. However, strategically, they made many mistakes and the longer the war went (however it was prolonged) the harder those mistakes hit. If for example they had killed those men at Dunkirk, then D-Day and the European land war would have been delayed and taken longer. But only a kook would think that if Germany was still in the war in 1945 that America would not have nuked Berlin or other German cities.

By 1945 America would have been able to reach Germany with an A-bomb far far easier than Germany could have reached the US. Germany would have been over extended and exhausted. America was just warming up!

Adolf Hitler was the Biggest Reason Germany Lost World War Two

The 1 Reason It Seemed Like Imperial Japan Might Win World War II

Until This Battle, Imperial Japan Looked Likely To Win World War II

How Nazi Germany Wins World War II: Dump Hitler?

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

Its not like the Allies didn't make mistakes too
Was Eisenhower at Antwerp the Biggest Allied Blunder of World War II?

But they still won because the were in the far better position strategically (at least america was, with or without Britain)

Anyway, to get back on topic, if a pre-trib rapture had happened n May 1940, most of those soldiers at Dunkirk would have been saved that way

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

Just one more re Dunkirk
The Battle of Dunkirk: The Real Turning Point of World War II?

Of course none of that would have happened if a pre-trib rapture had occurred when hostilities broke out as many at the time might have thought the tribulation was beginning!

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
America has 320 million people, you saw a few thousand people protest, at time destructively, and the media hyped it up for all it was worth. In reality it was and still is a storm in a teacup for the majority of the 320 million americans.

Yes, that's what a few thousand people can do.

Now.. think about the ramifications of 2 billion people vanishing.. every part of the globe at the same instant.. Gone...

Just the hysteria alone due to this event.. not to mention what people do in times like that.. Looting rioting, panic.... media trying to explain it..

One cop.. just one cop.. and it caused that... Now.. even if 1 billion vanish?

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