Undecided in eschatology

[parousia70]

First... you pretend the text indicates a MAN restrains.

Please pay better attention.
I indicated nothing of the sort.
I clearly indicated, as does Paul, that a MAN was, at that time, BEING RESTRAINED.

That is what the text ACTUALLY SAYS.

 

[5thKingdom]

No, they do not teach anything of the sort. You are presupposing your persinal bias onto the text.

Yes it DOES teach the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" during the Fourth Beast... AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that reality

Your lack of understanding of WHO is being referenced in 2 Thess
does not NEGATE the meaning of the passage.. it only prevents YOU from UNDERSTANDING the meaning


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[5thKingdom]

I clearly indicated, as does Paul, that a MAN was, at that time, BEING RESTRAINED.

Tell me sir...
What MAN is being restrained at the Return of Christ?
What MAN is being restrained during the great "falling away"?

And you think that is a MAN alive 2000 years ago.
And that MAN is alive at the Lord's Return?
LOL

There is no such MAN and the text does not imply such a notion.
You are ADDING to the text and you are demonstrating you do not understand the CONTEXT
of events AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"... the fact that SATAN RULES the Fourth Kingdom

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[5thKingdom]

Please pay better attention.
I indicated nothing of the sort.
I clearly indicated, as does Paul, that a MAN was, at that time, BEING RESTRAINED.

That is what the text ACTUALLY SAYS.

First... the text does NOT indicate it is talking about a human being... you ADDED that.

Secondly... the CONTEXT is the Lord's Return [v1]

So you are saying a MAN living in the first century
will also be living when the Lord Returns?

How crazy is THAT notion?

CONTEXT sir...
understand the CONTEXT is when the Lord Returns
and AFTER the Last Saint has been saved [Rev 7:1-3]

Stop ADDING to the text.


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[parousia70]

There is no such MAN and the text does not imply such a notion.

Here is the text. Tell me what I have added to it:

"And you know what is restraining him now"

You say the "Him" in the above text is not a man that was, at that time being restrained?
Really?
That's what you are going with?

 

[DavidPT]

THAT is what happens AFTER the Last Saint is saved... the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"

Granted, not everyone likes to check out links to articles that a member has a posted a link to. Which then tells me since you are still arguing this, either you didn't notice the link I submitted in post #173, thus didn't read the entire post. Or, that you did notice it but are one that doesn't care to check out links to articles. Or, that you did read that article or at least attempted to, but simply found the article unconvincing, since, in your mind, you have a far better understanding of these things than that author does. Assuming it might be the latter, how then can any serious Bible student read that article and find it unconvincing makes no sense unless that person simply is unable to comprehend what that article is arguing over all. But, since that person was very clear about things, I can't imagine anyone reading that article then failing to comprehend what the author is arguing over all. Unless one thinks exegesis is not important, that eisegesis trumps exegesis.

 

[5thKingdom]

Here is the text. Tell me what I have added to it:

"And you know what is restraining him now"

Where did you find that text?
Here is the KJV... it does NOT say "restraining him now"
You are using a bad translation.


2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Secondly... I tell you AGAIN
The CONTEXT is the Lord's Return [v1]
You suggest a MAN living in the first century
also lives 2000 year later DURING the Lord's Return?


You are using a bad translation and you are very confused about the CONTEXT


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[claninja]

Exactly.
Also important to note that in the first century, at the very time Paul was writing g to the Thessalonians, an actual MAN was at that time being restrained from his imminent takeover of the temple. "And you know what is restraining him now" And within a few short years of Paul’s letter, the temple was indeed taken over.

The notion that a sperm with an XY chromosome was somehow being restrained from entering an egg, and would continue to be restrained from entering that egg for thousands of years, is nowhere in the text.

The text is clear. There was a MAN, at that time, being restrained.

This is all first century stuff, fulfilled within a few short years after Paul wrote the letter.

Bingo!

1.) Paul says the “mystery” of lawlessness is already at work (present tense verb)

2.) Paul says the presence of the man of sin “is” (present tense verb) by the works of Satan.

What we can see from Paul’s wording is that the mysterious man of lawlessness was already at working lawlessness via Satan in the first century. What was still future to Paul and the Thessalonians was the “revealing” of the man of sin by the removal of the restrainer.

Even Ellicot recognizes that Paul is using present tense language, but alas, he must then argue that Paul is declaring the future as present.

Ellicot’s commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

“Is . . . with all power.—“Is:” St. Paul sees the future as present.”

 

[5thKingdom]

since, in your mind, you have a far better understanding of these things than that author does.

First, let's remember the CONTEXT
We are talking about events happening during the Fourth Beast
The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"


Therefore, any "interpretation" made BEFORE the Last Saints "shall understand"
MUST BE WRONG because it was developed during a time when the Bible PROMISES
the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed".


That is WHY we already KNOW the "interpretations" about Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome being the Four Kingdoms
MUST BE WRONG... the same applies here


It doe NO GOOD to reference an "interpretation" made while the Truth remained "sealed"...
I don't know WHY you continue to do such a thing. Unless you REJECT the Word of God in Dan 12?


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[5thKingdom]

Bingo!

1.) Paul says the “mystery” of lawlessness is already at work (present tense verb)

2.) Paul says the presence of the man of sin “is” (present tense verb) by the works of Satan.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


The CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 is the Return of the Lord and our "gathering" to Him...
that EVENT did not happen in the first century so you can STOP pretending the CONTEXT
of the passage does NOT include events at the Lord's Return.


NOW... if you want to say a MAN living in the first century
will still be living when the Lord Returns... then say that ridiculous thing plainly

What we can see from Paul’s wording is that the mysterious man of lawlessness was already at working lawlessness via Satan in the first century. What was still future to Paul and the Thessalonians was the “revealing” of the man of sin by the removal of the restrainer.

LOL... so you pretend the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to people living in the first Century.
THAT is hilarious

2Th 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


.

 

[keras]

Paul is declaring the future as present.

As is the case with most Bible Prophesies.
They are Written that way in order to emphasise the surety of fulfilment.

 

[parousia70]

LOL... so you pretend the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to people living in the first Century.
THAT is hilarious

2Th 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

So your contention is that the Man of Sin was NOT being restrained in the 1st century?
C'mon... really?

 

[5thKingdom]

So your contention is that the Man of Sin was NOT being restrained in the 1st century?
C'mon... really?

Sir... the "Man of Sin" doe not arise until the FOURTH BEAST.
The Fourth Beast does not arise until the Last Saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


The "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to the Last Saints and he is "destroyed" at the Lord's Return


2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


You can PRETEND a human alive in the first century is alive at the Lord's Return... but you are pretending.


Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.


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[claninja]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


The CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 is the Return of the Lord and our "gathering" to Him...

I agree that the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the parousia of Christ and our gathering to Him. I would argue it is the very same event as this:

Matthew 24:30-31 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

that EVENT did not happen in the first century so you can STOP pretending the CONTEXT
of the passage does NOT include events at the Lord's Return.

Since I believe the context of the 2 Thessalonians is related to the Olivet discourse, then I disagree with you, due to Jesus claiming it would occur during their generation.

Matthew 24:34 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

NOW... if you want to say a MAN living in the first century
will still be living when the Lord Returns... then say that ridiculous thing plainly

I absolutely agree that would be a ridiculous notion. The man of sin’s revealing was being restrained 2,000 years ago according to Paul. That man is now long dead.

LOL... so you pretend the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to people living in the first Century.
THAT is hilarious

What’s really hilarious is that you failed to grasp my point. My point was that it wasn’t the man of lawlessness that was being restrained, as Paul declares the mystery of lawlessness already at work. My point was that the “revealing” is what was being restrained.

 

[claninja]

As is the case with most Bible Prophesies.
They are Written that way in order to emphasise the surety of fulfilment.

This assumes Paul was giving a prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2

 

[parousia70]

Where did you find that text?
Here is the KJV... it does NOT say "restraining him now"
You are using a bad translation.

It's in the ESV. A perfectly respectable translation.

The NASB also renders it that way, as does the RSV, among others.

KJV is actually the poor translation.

 

[parousia70]

Again you ADD to the text.
The text NEVER says the "Man of Sin" was being restrained in the first century.
You need to read the text more carefully.

The accusaton that I add to the text is humorous coming from someone such as yourself who plainly has added "the Holy Spirit" to this text where it does not exist at all.

That said, the text is clear. A MAN was being restrained in the first century:

6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

 

[5thKingdom]

KJV is actually the poor translation.

LOL

/

 

[parousia70]

LOL

Any translation that renders the Greek word Aion (Age) as "World", as the KJV does, is a demosntrably poor translation.

"World" is nowhere found in the definition of "Aion":

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

 

[5thKingdom]

I agree that the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the parousia of Christ and our gathering to Him. I would argue it is the very same event as this:

Matthew 24:30-31 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So we agree the CONTEXT of 2Thess 2:1-8 is the Lord's Return

Since I believe the context of the 2 Thessalonians is related to the Olivet discourse, then I disagree with you, due to Jesus claiming it would occur during their generation.

Matthew 24:34 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

Did the Lord Return in the first century?
Clearly you do not understand Mat 24:33-34


It was addressing the Last Saint who "shall see ALL these things"... the historical fulfillment of ALL the prophecies
Jesus had just given about event happening just before His Return.


Matthew 24:33-34 could not POSSIBLY be addressed to the people in the first century
because the EVENTS being referred to (the "signs" before His Return) are only seen by the Last Saints...
THEY are the generation that "will not pass" before His Return because THEY are the people alive when He Returns


Mat 24:33-34
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, [all the signs He just prophesied]
know that it [His Return] is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation [of the Last Saints]
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


You only need to ask yourself WHO "shall see ALL these things"?
It is the Last Saints that "shall see"... not the first century Saints.
CONTEXT matters

---------


If I may address your PROBLEM.
You do not understand the difference between the (3rd) Christian Kingdom
and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (aka Revelation Beast)


Your PROBLEM is you do not understand Daniel's Four Beasts
so you ASSUME the passages related to the FOURTH BEAST
actually happen during the THIRD BEAST.


These are two (2) separate and distinct "Beasts"
you cannot CONFLATE the two Beasts and still understand the CONTEXT of a passage.


.