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Undecided in eschatology

5thKingdom

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5thKingdom said:
2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let [will restrain],
UNTIL HE [THE HOLY SPIRIT] BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. [after the Last Saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Revelation Beast BEGINS]

And THEN
[after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE the Fourth Kingdom]
THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [to the Last Saints], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



The meaning changes to two prophecies not being fulfilled as the thing that is holding back the return if you use these verses?
The throne prophecy can only happen during the 4 days the two witnesses are dead



Sir, I did not understand what you are saying....

The POINT I was making is simple:

During the Great Commission of the Church Age all of "His sheep" are found and saved.
AFTER the end of the Great Commission... AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed:
THEN the Great Tribulation Kingdom / Revelation Beast BEGINS
This Biblical FACT is PROVEN in Rev 7:1-3

The Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" after the Last Saint is "sealed" (Salvation is over)
Because SATAN RULES the Fourth Kingdom / Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast / Satan's "Little Season"


/
 
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parousia70

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You are not aware it is the Holy Spirit that restrains?

/
I’m aware that this is your claim.
You have failed to demonstrate it from scripture so far however. You merely saying so doesn’t make it a scriptural teaching.

Show us the scripture that teaches what you claim.

Show us the scripture that teaches the Holy Spirit is the one who restrains in 2 Thess.

If it is indeed a scriptural teaching, It should be relatively simple to demonstrate, no?

But again, take all the time you need.
 
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TribulationSigns

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My questions to AMILLENNIALISTS are:
1. How do you reconcile satan being bound from deceiving the nations with him PRESENTLY deceiving the nations in Rev 12:9 and other verses where the WHOLE EARTH is said to be under the power of the evil one (1 john 5:19)?

Revelation 20:3
  • "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."
The only people to who Satan was bound so that he wouldn't deceive them is the elect gentiles who join the Holy Nation (1st Peter 2:9), those who the Spirit of truth has removed the scales from their eyes in New Testament Revelation. For example in Acts God says by Christ's work salvation is sent to the Gentiles/Nations.

Acts 28:28
  • "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."
That word ethnos here could just as easily be translated as nations as it is in Revelation 20, meaning non-jew. It's the same word with the exact same meaning in contrast to the Jews. Because Christ bound Satan, salvation is now going to the non-Jews, not to physical geopolitical nations, kingdoms or governments as we understand the word "nation." Rather when God speaks about not deceiving the nations, He is talking about "these" Gentiles of Acts 28:28 to whom salvation is sent!

You need to remember in mind that Christ bound Satan in chains of darkness so that He could build His church, yet Satan still is able to work iniquity in the world. Ergo, the binding was NOT all-inclusive, it was only for the sake of the elect of the nation (Revelation 20:3) who would not be deceived. The remnant or elect to be saved! This is a truth so plainly illustrated in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

2nd Thessalonians 2:6-7
  • "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
  • For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
The word translated "letteth" is an Old English word that means restrains. Thus we learn vividly from God that although iniquity was being restrained by Him, it was still at work in the world, and would continue to be at work in the world until He that restrains it (God) would be taken out of the way (midst). Thus although this beast or kingdom was clearly defeated, and was being spoiled (his possessions taken by conquest) by the conqueror whose name was the Word of God, there was the secret or mystery of Satan's iniquity still being at work in the world. Again, to be clear, we read that even though the word declares iniquity was restrained or withheld (held back) until a time when He that restrained it would be taken out of the midst, it was still at work in the world. Satan was at that time still a world-power or spirit of evil (not to be confused with political power). But the point here is, not over the elect church. That so many were not deceived and were spoiled or seized from the nations. From the time of the cross, Gentiles were being added to the ranks of the kingdom of Christ daily. This was the mystery or secret of iniquity's working, but non-the-less God's truth concerning it.
 
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5thKingdom

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I’m aware that this is your claim.
You have failed to demonstrate it from scripture so far however. You merely saying so doesn’t make it a scriptural teaching.
Show us the scripture that teaches what you claim.



Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


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parousia70

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Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


/
I’m happy to entertain any scriptural evidence of your claim, but so far you have utterly failed to demonstrate your claim from Scripture.

You just keep repeating your claim as if it were biblical fact.

You do realize that Simply Repeating your presumption over and over again will not make it magically appear in scripture, right?

Show us the scripture that teaches the Holy Spirit is the restrainer of 2 Thess 2 - OR - just admit the truth that there is not even one scripture that teaches anything of the sort, and that you are simply presupposing based on your own personal bias.

I’ll continue to wait.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I’m aware that this is your claim.
You have failed to demonstrate it from scripture so far however. You merely saying so doesn’t make it a scriptural teaching.

Show us the scripture that teaches what you claim.

Show us the scripture that teaches the Holy Spirit is the one who restrains in 2 Thess.

If it is indeed a scriptural teaching, It should be relatively simple to demonstrate, no?

But again, take all the time you need.

Parousia70,

5th Kingdom is accurate.

You should ask yourself a quesiton, "why the church is falling into such great Apostasy," the answer is the will of man and sin. The problem is not God, it's man. Mankind wants to do His own will rather than follow the will of God, and "that" is the why. It's not God's fault man wants to sin, it's man's own rebellion that has brought him to that place. So what if God decides to use man's own sin to His own glory? As it is written:

Romans 9:16-18
  • "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
  • For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
  • Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
There is the demonstration of God's sovereignty, a reason why He allows the wicked to prosper, and how it is God's sovereign goodwill to have mercy on whosoever He wants, and not have mercy on whomsoever He wants. Again, and who is mankind to argue with God on His righteousness in doing so. Because man is rebellious, God sometimes "gives them up" to their own sinful devices by taking away His softening hand of restraint on their sin, to accomplish His will. For example:

2nd Thessalonians 2:7-8
  • "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
  • And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
God is under no obligation to let (restrain) iniquity or sin, and it's up to His sovereign goodwill to remove His Spirit that restrains sin and allow iniquity to increase at any time that He desires. And who is man to argue against it saying why have you done this to me? The answer is obvious, as a judgment on this earth for lawlessness.

The great fall or Apostasy happens because too many [aggelos] or messengers of God have abandoned the Biblical, erudite, and veracious theology, in favor of the more palatable liberal "Oprah Winfrey feel-good" sermons that take all the muscle out of the "message" and leaves the impression on the church that the gospel is all about "me, me, me", and our own selfishness. In other words, most of today's Pastoral messages will major in our will, our emotions, our prosperity and feelings, and minor in our contentment, faith, service, evangelism, obedience and moral conviction. Why? Because the people love to have it so. The true love of God they should possess, having grown cold.

Isaiah 30:9-11
  • "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
  • Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
Indeed rebellious children of God do cause the Holy One of Israel to cease or repose from among us. You see where God puts the onus for sin? Right on the people, not on His judgment "for" their sins. The church today is falling away and has (generally speaking) weakened, politicized, compromised, and feminized the pastorate. The sermons that you are most likely to hear in most churches are putting forth the idea that God winks at sin, that he doesn't always hate divorce, that it is our job is to build up the political nation of Israel, and that the gospel is a panacea to save the world, and that God winks at Christian sin, as God loves everyone and is our 24 hour "bond-servant" assuring that we have everything we need to live well and prosper in this world. Not So! And it is for this reason that the church has fallen into such great Apostasy.

As for the Congregation of God today...

2nd Thessalonians 2:7-8
  • "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way (midst).
  • And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
God says that iniquity was already at work in the Church even then, But He says that He that letteth (restrained) it, would continue to restrain it until he was taken out of the midst. Clearly the flow and context of this indicates He was not saying that "the people there" were restraining it. The only thing in this world that has the power to restrain iniquity is God, the Holy Spirit! Period!

This "AGAIN" in the VERY SAME context of the abomination in the Holy Temple that the man of sin (sinful man) be revealed ruling there. How is it you cannot understand the plain writing of scripture and continually ask questions [AS IF what is written is all just a lie? Clearly this that restrains sin or iniquity, is the Holy Spirit of God. The "ONLY" one who can restrain Satan, or take the restraints off Satan that he be revealed. Holy Spirit!

And just as clearly, God says that at this appointed time, He that restrains sin will be taken out of the way (midst). It's absurd to think God is saying here, people who restrain sin would be taken out of the world "that the wicked be revealed" which Christ will consume with his coming. If there is a Rapture, Christ had already come. No, the Spirit that restrains sin in the Church (That is the Kingdom could be extended) is taken out so that this iniquity that was restrained would increase (Matthew 24:12). Not coincidentally, God says in Matthew 24, in this same context of this abomination of desolation, that (at this time) iniquity would increase and love would grow cold. Yet you continue to deny everything that anyone witnesses in the scripture concerning this abomination that makes the Church desolate and he is the Holy Spirit. It's mind-boggling.

..who do you think restrains iniquity? The Church or the Spirit of God? Now I know you like to straddle the line, and neither say one thing or the other, but who alone has the power to restrain sin? God or man?
 
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claninja

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Parousia70,

5th Kingdom is accurate.

You should ask yourself a quesiton, "why the church is falling into such great Apostasy," the answer is the will of man and sin. The problem is not God, it's man. Mankind wants to do His own will rather than follow the will of God, and "that" is the why. It's not God's fault man wants to sin, it's man's own rebellion that has brought him to that place. So what if God decides to use man's own sin to His own glory? As it is written:

Romans 9:16-18
  • "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
  • For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
  • Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
There is the demonstration of God's sovereignty, a reason why He allows the wicked to prosper, and how it is God's sovereign goodwill to have mercy on whosoever He wants, and not have mercy on whomsoever He wants. Again, and who is mankind to argue with God on His righteousness in doing so. Because man is rebellious, God sometimes "gives them up" to their own sinful devices by taking away His softening hand of restraint on their sin, to accomplish His will. For example:

2nd Thessalonians 2:7-8
  • "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
  • And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
God is under no obligation to let (restrain) iniquity or sin, and it's up to His sovereign goodwill to remove His Spirit that restrains sin and allow iniquity to increase at any time that He desires. And who is man to argue against it saying why have you done this to me? The answer is obvious, as a judgment on this earth for lawlessness.

The great fall or Apostasy happens because too many [aggelos] or messengers of God have abandoned the Biblical, erudite, and veracious theology, in favor of the more palatable liberal "Oprah Winfrey feel-good" sermons that take all the muscle out of the "message" and leaves the impression on the church that the gospel is all about "me, me, me", and our own selfishness. In other words, most of today's Pastoral messages will major in our will, our emotions, our prosperity and feelings, and minor in our contentment, faith, service, evangelism, obedience and moral conviction. Why? Because the people love to have it so. The true love of God they should possess, having grown cold.

Isaiah 30:9-11
  • "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
  • Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
  • Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us."
Indeed rebellious children of God do cause the Holy One of Israel to cease or repose from among us. You see where God puts the onus for sin? Right on the people, not on His judgment "for" their sins. The church today is falling away and has (generally speaking) weakened, politicized, compromised, and feminized the pastorate. The sermons that you are most likely to hear in most churches are putting forth the idea that God winks at sin, that he doesn't always hate divorce, that it is our job is to build up the political nation of Israel, and that the gospel is a panacea to save the world, and that God winks at Christian sin, as God loves everyone and is our 24 hour "bond-servant" assuring that we have everything we need to live well and prosper in this world. Not So! And it is for this reason that the church has fallen into such great Apostasy.

As for the Congregation of God today...

2nd Thessalonians 2:7-8
  • "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way (midst).
  • And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
God says that iniquity was already at work in the Church even then, But He says that He that letteth (restrained) it, would continue to restrain it until he was taken out of the midst. Clearly the flow and context of this indicates He was not saying that "the people there" were restraining it. The only thing in this world that has the power to restrain iniquity is God, the Holy Spirit! Period!

This "AGAIN" in the VERY SAME context of the abomination in the Holy Temple that the man of sin (sinful man) be revealed ruling there. How is it you cannot understand the plain writing of scripture and continually ask questions [AS IF what is written is all just a lie? Clearly this that restrains sin or iniquity, is the Holy Spirit of God. The "ONLY" one who can restrain Satan, or take the restraints off Satan that he be revealed. Holy Spirit!

And just as clearly, God says that at this appointed time, He that restrains sin will be taken out of the way (midst). It's absurd to think God is saying here, people who restrain sin would be taken out of the world "that the wicked be revealed" which Christ will consume with his coming. If there is a Rapture, Christ had already come. No, the Spirit that restrains sin in the Church (That is the Kingdom could be extended) is taken out so that this iniquity that was restrained would increase (Matthew 24:12). Not coincidentally, God says in Matthew 24, in this same context of this abomination of desolation, that (at this time) iniquity would increase and love would grow cold. Yet you continue to deny everything that anyone witnesses in the scripture concerning this abomination that makes the Church desolate and he is the Holy Spirit. It's mind-boggling.

..who do you think restrains iniquity? The Church or the Spirit of God? Now I know you like to straddle the line, and neither say one thing or the other, but who alone has the power to restrain sin? God or man?

2 Thessalonians makes no mention of lawlessness being restrained. In fact lawlessness was already at work in Paul’s day.

2 Thessalonians 2:7a 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work

What was being restrained in Paul’s day was the “revealing” of the man of sin. When the restrainer was taken out of the way THEN the man of sin would be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a but the one who now restrains will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,
 
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TribulationSigns

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2 Thessalonians makes no mention of lawlessness being restrained. In fact lawlessness was already at work in Paul’s day.

2 Thessalonians 2:7a 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work

What was being restrained in Paul’s day was the “revealing” of the man of sin. When the restrainer was taken out of the way THEN the man of sin would be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a but the one who now restrains will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,

I believe you misunderstood the purpose of iniquity being restrained.

2Th 2:6-7
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This is the verse we touched on earlier. Iniquity was already at work at the time of the writing of this epistle, and yet it was being restrained. This is one of those rare instances where the "old english" language of the King James Bible may be a little confusing. That word translated 'letteth' is an old English word that simply means restrains. In the literal Greek, it is [katecho], meaning to hold down, and by implication to prevent one from doing something. For example, if I were to grab someone and hold them down so that they couldn't attack someone, I would be restraining them. That is how this word is used here. To be Held Down or restrained from doing something.
The mystery was that Satan was going to deceive the masses of the Churches into lawlessness. The Greek word iniquity [anomia] literally means, lawlessness or transgression of God's laws. The Church deceived will be allowed to act outside of God's law without restraint. And this secret or mystery is revealed to the saints as a rebellion against the laws of God by man. In a word, 'lawlessness.' This mystery of Iniquity was already at work when 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 was written, but was restrained so that the Church could be built. There are those Theologians who like to argue that, "If Satan was bound at the cross, why is there so much evil in the world," or who actually mock declaring that, "He must not have been bound to tightly, because he is sure loose in the world today." I can understand this sentiment in light of the world, but not in the 'light' of the Scripture. First of all, this is what this verse is saying, not something man merely claims that it says. It says Yes, iniquity was already at work in the world even then, and yet it declares it nevertheless was being restrained and would continue to be restrained until the time when he who restrains it was removed from the midst. God Said that. And for any Christian to mock or deny that is tank foolishness on his part.

We didn't say iniquity was working and yet was restrained, God said that. So all these Theologians who want to argue semantics are arguing with God. How can iniquity be held down if it's up and working in the world? Because 'God Defines Terms,' not man! It's not defined by Webster's dictionary of what is bound, restrained, or held down, but God's Word. The fact is, Satan was bound/restrained for a specific reason. He was not so that there would be no more evil in the world, he was not restrained so that the Church would never be persecuted, and he was not held in check so there would be a golden age of purity. He was (as we've clearly seen) bound so that he could not go forth deceiving the nations to gather them together to assault the camp of the Saints until after Christ's Church was built. That is why he was bound. Satan has no defense against Christ's onslaught at his gates. When Christ assaults the gates of Satan's Kingdom, He builds His Church with the spoils thereof.

Luke 11:21-22
  • "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."
Matthew 16:18
  • "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Christ assaults satan's gates to build His Church, spoiling his kingdom and translating those He chooses from that prison house of darkness into the glorious Kingdom of the Lord. Nothing will prevent the Church from being built, and that is why Satan was bound. But when the time nears for Christ's return (meaning the Church is complete or nearly complete) then Satan will be loosed, and will deceive again and cause a "great Apostasy" and Tribulation in the world. But only for a little season, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God (1st Peter 4:127). Iniquity is restrained of God, until Christ is removed out of the midst of the temple, the light of the world darkened.
Many have hypothesized about what really restrains sin. Church tradition once held that it was restrained by the law of the Roman Empire. But that didn't last long because after Roman law was long gone, the Church prospered and grew even more. Others theorized that it was the gospel itself being witnessed which restrained sin. This is a much more biblical interpretation, but still does not really get down to the root, or efficacy of the restraint. i.e., sin is not restrained by words (scripture), but by the power of the Word (which is the Spirit).

Again, that which restrains iniquity is referred to as that which restrains (verse 6), and as he which restrains (verse 7). This would seem to indicate a power involving personal agency. Moreover, we 'know most assuredly' that the only true restrainer of sin is the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, we have our answer. The Holy Spirit is this restrainer of iniquity of which Paul writes, and which has been doing it's job for 2000 years since this epistle was penned.

He who is in the midst of the Church who restrains, is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ is taken out of the Churches, then the Spirit is no longer there. Then will the spirit of Satan be loosed to take it's place as the substitute, or anti-Christ. This is the time when many false authorities or pseudo Christs' arise because of lack of restraint. In other words, these were already here in the world, but were being restrained. In fact, when we look carefully at 2nd Thessalonians verse 7, it is not unlike what we read of Anti-Christ in 1st John:

1st John 4:3
  • "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it Should Come; and Even Now Already is it in the world."
Is this evil spirit of Anti-Christ Coming? Indeed it is. And yet God said that this spirit was already there in the world even then. It's very easy for some Theologians to mock and say how can Satan be bound when he's loose in the world, or how can Satan be destroyed (made idle down) when he goes about as a roaring lion in the world, but this mocking shows a unbridled ignorance of scriptures. And this verse declaring of the spirit of Antichrist (Satan, the spirit against or opposed to Christ) even then was already in the world, and yet was also coming, illustrates this principle very clearly. Because he was at the time, simply "held Down" that in the future he would be released to come in power which he didn't have the authority to do then. There are Christians who will tell you that the Anti Christ must come. They are absolutely right. But then they tell you it is a single man, and they are totally wrong. No man was already in the world when these passages were written, and will also be in the world when the end comes. This is obviously no single man. It is the spirit being Satan, working his deceivings through man. Not through 'a man,' but through mankind. Only Satan could exist from the time of John, to the time of the second coming. And even though some Theologians try to split hairs in saying, "there are many antichrists but these are the spirit of AntiChrist, not Antichrist. But careful examination of scriptures shows that they are grasping at straws. We read unambiguously that the antichrist was already there at that time also.

2nd John 1:7
  • "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a DECEIVER and an ANTICHRIST."
This doesn't say The spirit of Antichrist, or Thee antichrist, it says an "antichrist". Obviously there are many, and it's not just one man as is popularly theorized. So then, if we have an antichrist at the time of John, and will come to power near the end, then this theory that this is a single man cannot be Biblically validated nor substantiated. Let me say with all due respect to those who believe such things, It can "nowhere" be shown in the scriptures that the Antichrist is one single man who manifests himself near the end. If we let the Bible (and not our imaginations and teachers) "define" what Antichrist is, then we will have no problem understanding scripture, nor God's interpretation. Satan is the Antichrist. The Problem comes in when people ignore how the Word of God defines the spirit antichrist, and accept what some teachers say he is. That is a old and yet continuing mistake in the Church. God defines terms, not preachers, horror movies, tradition or webster's dictionary. The Word of God says a deceiver who confesses not that Jesus is the Christ, is an AntiChrist. And that is because he has the spirit of Satan.

Many make the exact same error in defining the man of sin (lawlessness) as they think he also is a single man, thee Antichrist. But the man of sin is an Antichrist, not "thee" Antichrist. He was here at the time of the writing of scripture, and he will/and has come in our day. Only the spirit of Satan qualifies as both. Antichrist was to come, and yet scripture also said it was already in the world at that time of John. That's exactly what 2nd Thessalonians 2:7 means when it says the iniquity was already at work, yet was restrained to be revealed at a future time. Both verses say the same thing. There will come a time when the spirit of Satan will be loosed and iniquity will increase and abound. It is a time of great deceiving when the spirit Satan is loosed. There is no one lawless man coming, but many will be a man of sin or lawlessness. And this man of lawlessness will rule in the Holy Temple in his own authority (as if he is God) and cause it's downfall. These evil men who don't follow the laws of God all have one thing in common. They all are sons of the Devil with the spirit of Satan in them. They are son of Perdition, all in servitude to Satan.

Why is it that the Great Tribulation period could not come upon the world until near the end of Time? What was preventing it? The answer is that it was God of course. This great tribulation and iniquity (matthew 24) has been prevented from happening for nearly 2000 years because Satan was bound as God builds His Church. Satan could not muster his armies from the all the nations to assault the camp of the Saints in a way that would bring this great tribulation (greater than this world has ever seen, nor will see thereafter). Are we to think that Satan didn't want to bring this iniquity and Great tribulation 1000 years ago? 500 year ago? 100 years ago? Surely he does because he is the father of lies and deception, the epitome of Evil. But he was obviously bound from being able to do so by God. He cannot bring it until he is loosed.

The overview of verse seven is that God is telling us that there is a mystery in how the iniquity of Satan was at work in the world already then, but was being restrained until the time when he who restrained it was taken out of the way (midst). Because of Satan's being bound in this New Testament millennial reign of Christ, many through the years were freed from his captivity, and are risen up to live and reign with Christ in His kingdom. Because of this restraint of Satan many are translated from the power of darkness to the Kingdom of God. The point is, when the time comes, Satan is loosed as God takes His hand of restraint out of the midst of the Church. This is what this verse is declaring. Iniquity was still at work, and yet was restrained until He who retrains it will be taken out of the midst. And verse 8 continues in the next post:
 
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TribulationSigns

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2Th 2:8
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

When the time comes, and Christ is taken out of the midst (translated way in the KJV) of the Church, then will this iniquity or lawlessness of Satan be revealed. This is when the real-time of trouble starts. In other words, that which has been restrained of God all those years is let loose to do it's work in man. The Spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2) will be free to make the man of sin or lawless man. Revelation chapter 20 says, then Satan must be loosed a little season. And though it doesn't say in this verse he's loosed a little season, it is clear by the context and language that it is for a short period just before the coming of the Lord. The context after all 'is' (verse 1-3)the return of the Lord when we shall gather to meet Him, and the things which must happen first. God declares that He will consume this evil with the Spirit of His Mouth (The Word of God) and shall destroy it with the brightness [epiphaneia] of His coming. That Greek word [epiphaneia] means his notable or conspicuous appearing or manifestation.

Clearly, when the iniquity is loosed the lawless man in the spirit of antichrist won't be destroyed until Christ's second coming. And it will be a notable manifestation of Christ, not secret. Not like your 'alleged' coming in A.D. 70. ALL will see Him.

Matthew 24:27
  • "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and SHINETH even unto the west; so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be."
This passage isn't talking about 70 A.D., or anytime thereabouts. Selah! It's talking about Christ coming in "final" judgment and there will not be one eye anywhere on the earth that will not see Him. This is the brightness or notable shining that Christ comes with. The brightness shines from the east even unto the west and none shall be able to hide from His presence. It will lighten every corner. The minute His light shines upon them, the wicked will be undone. And they know they are undone, and must stand for the Judgment. Obviously, this did not occur in 70 A.D.

The overview of verse eight is that it is illustrating to us that when the spirit of Satan is loosed, then will Satan, that wicked one, be revealed as he works within man to bring wickedness upon the earth. This is he who the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, which is the Word of God. The wicked shall be destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming and then will man discover that life really wasn't a game after all. Then will be the realization of the seriousness of crimes against the most Holy God.
 
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claninja

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I believe you misunderstood the purpose of iniquity being restrained.

2Th 2:6-7
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This is the verse we touched on earlier. Iniquity was already at work at the time of the writing of this epistle, and yet it was being restrained. This is one of those rare instances where the "old english" language of the King James Bible may be a little confusing. That word translated 'letteth' is an old English word that simply means restrains. In the literal Greek, it is [katecho], meaning to hold down, and by implication to prevent one from doing something. For example, if I were to grab someone and hold them down so that they couldn't attack someone, I would be restraining them. That is how this word is used here. To be Held Down or restrained from doing something.
The mystery was that Satan was going to deceive the masses of the Churches into lawlessness. The Greek word iniquity [anomia] literally means, lawlessness or transgression of God's laws. The Church deceived will be allowed to act outside of God's law without restraint. And this secret or mystery is revealed to the saints as a rebellion against the laws of God by man. In a word, 'lawlessness.' This mystery of Iniquity was already at work when 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 was written, but was restrained so that the Church could be built. There are those Theologians who like to argue that, "If Satan was bound at the cross, why is there so much evil in the world," or who actually mock declaring that, "He must not have been bound to tightly, because he is sure loose in the world today." I can understand this sentiment in light of the world, but not in the 'light' of the Scripture. First of all, this is what this verse is saying, not something man merely claims that it says. It says Yes, iniquity was already at work in the world even then, and yet it declares it nevertheless was being restrained and would continue to be restrained until the time when he who restrains it was removed from the midst. God Said that. And for any Christian to mock or deny that is tank foolishness on his part.

We didn't say iniquity was working and yet was restrained, God said that. So all these Theologians who want to argue semantics are arguing with God. How can iniquity be held down if it's up and working in the world? Because 'God Defines Terms,' not man! It's not defined by Webster's dictionary of what is bound, restrained, or held down, but God's Word. The fact is, Satan was bound/restrained for a specific reason. He was not so that there would be no more evil in the world, he was not restrained so that the Church would never be persecuted, and he was not held in check so there would be a golden age of purity. He was (as we've clearly seen) bound so that he could not go forth deceiving the nations to gather them together to assault the camp of the Saints until after Christ's Church was built. That is why he was bound. Satan has no defense against Christ's onslaught at his gates. When Christ assaults the gates of Satan's Kingdom, He builds His Church with the spoils thereof.

Luke 11:21-22
  • "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
  • But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."
Matthew 16:18
  • "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Christ assaults satan's gates to build His Church, spoiling his kingdom and translating those He chooses from that prison house of darkness into the glorious Kingdom of the Lord. Nothing will prevent the Church from being built, and that is why Satan was bound. But when the time nears for Christ's return (meaning the Church is complete or nearly complete) then Satan will be loosed, and will deceive again and cause a "great Apostasy" and Tribulation in the world. But only for a little season, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God (1st Peter 4:127). Iniquity is restrained of God, until Christ is removed out of the midst of the temple, the light of the world darkened.
Many have hypothesized about what really restrains sin. Church tradition once held that it was restrained by the law of the Roman Empire. But that didn't last long because after Roman law was long gone, the Church prospered and grew even more. Others theorized that it was the gospel itself being witnessed which restrained sin. This is a much more biblical interpretation, but still does not really get down to the root, or efficacy of the restraint. i.e., sin is not restrained by words (scripture), but by the power of the Word (which is the Spirit).

Again, that which restrains iniquity is referred to as that which restrains (verse 6), and as he which restrains (verse 7). This would seem to indicate a power involving personal agency. Moreover, we 'know most assuredly' that the only true restrainer of sin is the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, we have our answer. The Holy Spirit is this restrainer of iniquity of which Paul writes, and which has been doing it's job for 2000 years since this epistle was penned.

He who is in the midst of the Church who restrains, is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ is taken out of the Churches, then the Spirit is no longer there. Then will the spirit of Satan be loosed to take it's place as the substitute, or anti-Christ. This is the time when many false authorities or pseudo Christs' arise because of lack of restraint. In other words, these were already here in the world, but were being restrained. In fact, when we look carefully at 2nd Thessalonians verse 7, it is not unlike what we read of Anti-Christ in 1st John:

1st John 4:3
  • "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it Should Come; and Even Now Already is it in the world."
Is this evil spirit of Anti-Christ Coming? Indeed it is. And yet God said that this spirit was already there in the world even then. It's very easy for some Theologians to mock and say how can Satan be bound when he's loose in the world, or how can Satan be destroyed (made idle down) when he goes about as a roaring lion in the world, but this mocking shows a unbridled ignorance of scriptures. And this verse declaring of the spirit of Antichrist (Satan, the spirit against or opposed to Christ) even then was already in the world, and yet was also coming, illustrates this principle very clearly. Because he was at the time, simply "held Down" that in the future he would be released to come in power which he didn't have the authority to do then. There are Christians who will tell you that the Anti Christ must come. They are absolutely right. But then they tell you it is a single man, and they are totally wrong. No man was already in the world when these passages were written, and will also be in the world when the end comes. This is obviously no single man. It is the spirit being Satan, working his deceivings through man. Not through 'a man,' but through mankind. Only Satan could exist from the time of John, to the time of the second coming. And even though some Theologians try to split hairs in saying, "there are many antichrists but these are the spirit of AntiChrist, not Antichrist. But careful examination of scriptures shows that they are grasping at straws. We read unambiguously that the antichrist was already there at that time also.

2nd John 1:7
  • "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a DECEIVER and an ANTICHRIST."
This doesn't say The spirit of Antichrist, or Thee antichrist, it says an "antichrist". Obviously there are many, and it's not just one man as is popularly theorized. So then, if we have an antichrist at the time of John, and will come to power near the end, then this theory that this is a single man cannot be Biblically validated nor substantiated. Let me say with all due respect to those who believe such things, It can "nowhere" be shown in the scriptures that the Antichrist is one single man who manifests himself near the end. If we let the Bible (and not our imaginations and teachers) "define" what Antichrist is, then we will have no problem understanding scripture, nor God's interpretation. Satan is the Antichrist. The Problem comes in when people ignore how the Word of God defines the spirit antichrist, and accept what some teachers say he is. That is a old and yet continuing mistake in the Church. God defines terms, not preachers, horror movies, tradition or webster's dictionary. The Word of God says a deceiver who confesses not that Jesus is the Christ, is an AntiChrist. And that is because he has the spirit of Satan.

Many make the exact same error in defining the man of sin (lawlessness) as they think he also is a single man, thee Antichrist. But the man of sin is an Antichrist, not "thee" Antichrist. He was here at the time of the writing of scripture, and he will/and has come in our day. Only the spirit of Satan qualifies as both. Antichrist was to come, and yet scripture also said it was already in the world at that time of John. That's exactly what 2nd Thessalonians 2:7 means when it says the iniquity was already at work, yet was restrained to be revealed at a future time. Both verses say the same thing. There will come a time when the spirit of Satan will be loosed and iniquity will increase and abound. It is a time of great deceiving when the spirit Satan is loosed. There is no one lawless man coming, but many will be a man of sin or lawlessness. And this man of lawlessness will rule in the Holy Temple in his own authority (as if he is God) and cause it's downfall. These evil men who don't follow the laws of God all have one thing in common. They all are sons of the Devil with the spirit of Satan in them. They are son of Perdition, all in servitude to Satan.

Why is it that the Great Tribulation period could not come upon the world until near the end of Time? What was preventing it? The answer is that it was God of course. This great tribulation and iniquity (matthew 24) has been prevented from happening for nearly 2000 years because Satan was bound as God builds His Church. Satan could not muster his armies from the all the nations to assault the camp of the Saints in a way that would bring this great tribulation (greater than this world has ever seen, nor will see thereafter). Are we to think that Satan didn't want to bring this iniquity and Great tribulation 1000 years ago? 500 year ago? 100 years ago? Surely he does because he is the father of lies and deception, the epitome of Evil. But he was obviously bound from being able to do so by God. He cannot bring it until he is loosed.

The overview of verse seven is that God is telling us that there is a mystery in how the iniquity of Satan was at work in the world already then, but was being restrained until the time when he who restrained it was taken out of the way (midst). Because of Satan's being bound in this New Testament millennial reign of Christ, many through the years were freed from his captivity, and are risen up to live and reign with Christ in His kingdom. Because of this restraint of Satan many are translated from the power of darkness to the Kingdom of God. The point is, when the time comes, Satan is loosed as God takes His hand of restraint out of the midst of the Church. This is what this verse is declaring. Iniquity was still at work, and yet was restrained until He who retrains it will be taken out of the midst. And verse 8 continues in the next post:

Again, Paul never states in 2 Thessalonians 2 that lawlessness is being restrained or held down. The “mystery” of the lawless was at work. What was actually being restrained per Paul was the “revealing” of the man of sin.

Notice the bold, red “IT” in vs 7. That word is not found in the original greek. That is added by some, BUT NOT ALL translations. Adding the “it” in verse 7 makes it seem like Paul is stating the restraining of “it” is in regards to the lawlessness. But when you actually look at the Greek, that is not so.


2 Thessalonians 2:7 (esv) 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains [IT] will do so until he is out of the way.

BUT the word for “restrains” is a participle following the definitive article “the”. This means the participle “restrains” is an attributive and acts as an adjective. In other words “restrains” shouldn’t be understood as a verb, but as a descriptor: “the one who restrains/the restrainer”.

We can confirm this by looking at what happens when the restrainer is removed. Does lawlessness increase when the restrainer is removed? Well, Paul never says lawless increases when the restrainer is removed, so we can rule that out. Instead Paul says the man of sin is revealed when the restrainer is revealed.


And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

Only the one who presently restrains until he is out of the way And then the lawless one will be revealed
 
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JulieB67

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You are not aware it is the Holy Spirit that restrains?
It is impossible that it's the Holy Spirit that will leave.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

These are Christians and the Holy Spirit is not going to leave them at this point in time. One, if not the most important time in a Christians life.

You have fallen into what is called a tradition of man, not the word of God. And you have also added your own thoughts to the word of God.


John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"
 
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DavidPT

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It is impossible that it's the Holy Spirit that will leave.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

These are Christians and the Holy Spirit is not going to leave them at this point in time. One, if not the most important time in a Christians life.

You have fallen into what is called a tradition of man, not the word of God. And you have also added your own thoughts to the word of God.


John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

In verse 6 Paul already tells them now they know what withholdeth, and I don't recall him mentioning the Holy Spirit one single time in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Something else to factor in, pertaining to verse 7 and the word 'taken'. That Greek word doesn't appear to be used elsewhere in the NT in the sense some are taking it to mean in verse 7. The Greek word is ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.


And the Greek word for 'way' in verse 7 is mesos
mes'-os
from meta - meta 3326; middle (as an adjective or (neuter) noun):--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid(-day, -night), midst, way.

Edited to add:

I just found the following article after having made this post. I have since read the majority of this article, it's somewhat lengthy, and have to say this is probably the best article that I have ever read involving this subject. Well worth the read if anyone cares to read it. The following from the article, below, is how I already basically understand some of this to begin with, and that this is proof to me that I am apparently on the right track undertanding it like that if someone far more intellegent than me is basically understanding it in the same manner. Meaning how he interprets verse 7 below---"Only he who is holding (Christ) back is doing so now, until he comes out...." or better yet, "He who is holding (Christ) back is doing so only now, until he comes out and then is revealed..."

---------------------------------

It is unfortunate that the English translations prohibit the English reader from understanding the nuance and emphasis which the temporal adverbs place on this text. Neither can the English reader see that the supplied phrase in verse 7 of the NIV text, "will continue to do so" actually hinders rather than helps us understand Paul's meaning. This editorial insertion has been adopted by translators so that the sentence will read smoothly in English. There is, however, a better way to communicate the contrast Paul is making here: "Only he who is holding (Christ) back is doing so now, until he comes out...." or better yet, "He who is holding (Christ) back is doing so only now, until he comes out and then is revealed..."
 
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parousia70

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Again, Paul never states in 2 Thessalonians 2 that lawlessness is being restrained or held down. The “mystery” of the lawless was at work. What was actually being restrained per Paul was the “revealing” of the man of sin.

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

Only the one who presently restrains until he is out of the way And then the lawless one will be revealed
Exactly.
Also important to note that in the first century, at the very time Paul was writing g to the Thessalonians, an actual MAN was at that time being restrained from his imminent takeover of the temple. "And you know what is restraining him now" And within a few short years of Paul’s letter, the temple was indeed taken over.

The notion that a sperm with an XY chromosome was somehow being restrained from entering an egg, and would continue to be restrained from entering that egg for thousands of years, is nowhere in the text.

The text is clear. There was a MAN, at that time, being restrained.

This is all first century stuff, fulfilled within a few short years after Paul wrote the letter.
 
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5thKingdom

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Show us the scripture that teaches the Holy Spirit is the restrainer of 2 Thess - OR - just admit there is not even one scripture that teaches anything of the sort, and that you are simply presupposing based on your own personal bias.

I’ll continue to wait.

5thKingdom said:

Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


These verse TEACH the Holy Spirit is the restrainer
I am sorry that YOU do not UNDERSTAND the meaning of these passages
But Biblical Truth is NOT determined by your lack of understanding Scripture.


Of course... if you think the "WHO" being referenced is someone OTHER than the Holy Spirit
Then just say so... and tell me "WHO" is "withholding" and WHO it is that "letteth"?
You do not know?... that is not an answer. Your lack of understanding
does not NEGATE what the verses teach.


THINK sir... Bible Study
requires you to THINK.

/
 
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5thKingdom

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The text is clear. There was a MAN, at that time, being restrained.
This is all first century stuff, fulfilled within a few short years after Paul wrote the letter.


First... you pretend the text indicates a MAN restrains.

Secondly... the CONTEXT of the passage is the Return of the Lord
and the great "falling away" that happens BEFORE His Return...

Despite you LACK OF UNDERSTANDING... the CONTEXT of these passages
is NOT a first century event... because the great "falling away" and the Lord's Return
was NOT a first century event.

---------


Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


/
 
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5thKingdom

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It is impossible that it's the Holy Spirit that will leave.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

These are Christians and the Holy Spirit is not going to leave them at this point in time. One, if not the most important time in a Christians life.

You have fallen into what is called a tradition of man, not the word of God. And you have also added your own thoughts to the word of God.


John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"
 
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5thKingdom

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JulieB67 said:
It is impossible that it's the Holy Spirit that will leave.

NO it is not impossible......... that is just your lack of understanding


----------


JulieB67 said:
These are Christians and the Holy Spirit is not going to leave them at this point in time. One, if not the most important time in a Christians life.
You have fallen into what is called a tradition of man, not the word of God. And you have also added your own thoughts to the word of God.
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"



YOU MISUNDERSTAND
I never said the Holy Spirit being TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY
represents the Holy Spirit leaving the Believers... you ADDED that misunderstanding to my comments.


I said what SCRIPTURE teaches... at the END of the Great Commission... after the Last Saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]
Then the Holy Spirit is TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY during the FOURTH KINGDOM on earth.
The Holy Spirit STAYS with the Last Saints... but NOT with any others
in the FOURTH KINGDOM.


also known as the Great Tribulation Kingdom
also known as the Revelation Beast
also know as Satan's "Little Season"


There is NO SALVATION after the Last Saint is "sealed"
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that reality.... because the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way"
DURING the Fourth Beast.


Julie... you err because you CONFLATE
the *3rd) Christian Kingdom with the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom


You err because you do not understand the NATURE of the Fourth Beast
is that SATAN RULES the Kingdom.



Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

/
 
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5thKingdom

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In verse 6 Paul already tells them now they know what withholdeth, and I don't recall him mentioning the Holy Spirit one single time in 2 Thessalonians 2.


First let's remember the CONTEXT of the Fourth Kingdom is that
the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.


So the CONTEXT is what happens AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
Salvation is NOT POSSIBLE after the Last Saint has been saved.
THAT is the CONTEXT of the Holy Spirit being
"taken out of the way".



WHO do you think it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


WHO do you think it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


Sir... the NATURE of the Fourth Kingdom is that SATAN RULES.
In order for that to happen the Holy Spirit cannot be ruling the Kingdom
THAT is what happens AFTER the Last Saint is saved... the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"
So that SATAN can RULE the Fourth Beast.


/
 
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parousia70

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5thKingdom said:

Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


These verse TEACH the Holy Spirit is the restrainer
No, they do not teach anything of the sort. You are presupposing your persinal bias onto the text.

That much is clear. Everyone here can see it.

There is absolutely NOTHING in those texts that even remotely suggests the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.
Not even one word.
 
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