• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Unconditional Forgiveness?

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,276
4,682
70
Tolworth
✟414,949.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Forgiving is an act of Godly type Love and since God is Love, God forgives

God is Love, he is also Holy, just and Merciful.
But God does not ' just ' forgive, he forgives when sinners repent.
God is always Loving with everyone all the time
Which we see in his provission of life and all that is neccessary for life.
We see something of the extent of Gods love for us in Jesus's life, death and resurection ad in God free offer of salvation.
But there are consquences for not accepting that offer of salvation, namely that one is not saved from being a sinner.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus asked the Father to forgive those involved in His crucifixion, so did God forgive them?

We forgive our children before they even ask, but our responsibility does not stop with just our forgiving.

Forgiving is an act of Godly type Love and since God is Love, God forgives.

The problem is not with God withholding Love/forgiveness it is with man humbly accepting the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.
Nowhere is this concept presented in Scripture. It is a notion of man.
When you say: God does not forgive until you repent, you are also saying God is not Loving until the person does something “deserving” like repenting, yet God is always Loving with everyone all the time and it is man not accepting the Love and repenting to show His acceptance when forgiveness takes place (all from Matt. 18).

The “condition” is not so God can forgive, but the “condition” allows forgiveness to take place and not be God’s fault.
Contra-Biblical.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,897
1,938
✟1,023,016.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But I did not say what "accounting term" means.

However, it means terms that are used in accounting; e.g., forgiveness, debit, credit, etc.
That is not what is in question and what is wrong with the statement: ""Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."" what is wrong is with equating: Forgiveness=cancellation of debt. Cancelation of debt has a much broader meaning and in accounting mostly means the debt was paid without forgiveness being used.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That is not what is in question and what is wrong with the statement: ""Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."" what is wrong is with equating: Forgiveness=cancellation of debt. Cancelation of debt has a much broader meaning and in accounting mostly means the debt was paid without forgiveness being used.
I note the "mostly". . .and that I didnt pay my debt either.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,897
1,938
✟1,023,016.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God is Love, he is also Holy, just and Merciful.
But God does not ' just ' forgive, he forgives when sinners repent.

Which we see in his provission of life and all that is neccessary for life.
We see something of the extent of Gods love for us in Jesus's life, death and resurection ad in God free offer of salvation.
But there are consquences for not accepting that offer of salvation, namely that one is not saved from being a sinner.
I must not be explaining my point to you.
God always forgives because forgiving is an act of Love and God is Love.
What you are not getting is the fact "forgiveness" is a process/transaction requiring more than just God forgiving to complete.
You seem to think if God forgives than forgiveness took place so your conclusion is man must first repent for God to forgive, but that means God i not "Loving" by forgiving, yet God is loving by forgiving.
We do not need to hear about God not Loving in any and all ways, but the problem is with man not humbly accepting that forgiveness as pure charity.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,897
1,938
✟1,023,016.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Nowhere is this concept presented in Scripture. It is a notion of man.

Contra-Biblical.
Matt. 18: 21-35
God’s Definition of Forgiveness
When sincere Christians differ, it mostly has to do with differences in their assumptions including differences in the definitions of the same words their using.
“Forgiveness” is one of those words we have different definitions for that causes “doctrinal” differences between sincere Christians.
I feel Christ is giving us Deity’s definition for “forgiveness” in Matt. 18:21-35, “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”.
Most commentaries give us what the parable does not say and only the ending “Moral to the Story” (forgive others) without getting into the factual details and explain what appears to be God taking back His forgiving.

We need to figure out the “question” the parable is addressing and the context.
Just prior to the parable we have:
Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”
Peter asks a good question and seems generous by providing his take on the answer of “is it seven times”, since three times is the Old Testament was given.
Christ makes a huge change by saying 77 times (virtually saying: “always”), so it is important to try to put yourself in their shoes hearing this idea for the first time, do you think the disciples would be thinking: “How is this change going to impact my life”, this is normal people’s thinking with new information. So will they will go on to think “How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”
We know from all other previous encounters: Jesus knowing their thinking, so He will address in a parable their problem with His previous answer, by giving them the true definition for “forgiveness”.

First off: This debt is totally unbelievably huge, no one has that kind of money to lend, no one could get into anywhere near this kind of “debt”, and there was no way to make that kind of payment. It is actually hard to believe one person could even spend this much money in a life time in the first century.
Matt 18:25 “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered…” Here we know the Master knew there is no way to pay this debt and this servant entrusted with such a huge responsibility would also realize he could never pay it back.
Matt 18: 26 “…‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’” This servant is not asking for unconditional forgiveness, but “more time”, with the promise of paying it back in full, but the Master is not an idiot, the Master just previously said there is no way to pay this debt, and since this servant has been entrusted with and spent already 10,000 talents, he knows he cannot earn that amount. The servant is lying to the Master and maybe lying to himself.
When the Master: canceled (forgave) the debt and let him go, what did the servant “hear” (think) and possibly believe: “Oh the Master accepted my offer”, “I got time”, “I did OK”, “The Master does not care about the money”, or “the master must really like me”?
Luke 7: 36-50. Christ teaches us this truism: “He that is forgiven much Loves much” so Godly type Love would come automatically if a person was forgiven of an unbelievable huge Debt meaning he will automatically receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so how is it possible for this “forgiven” servant to not Love one of the Master’s servants and treat him graciously?
Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned, so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full, since it is a forgiven debt?
If we take all these Biblical truisms and allow them to define “Forgiveness” instead of taking our definition of forgiveness and force us to make an acceptation for God (Allow God to mislead us (lie)) Deity’s definition will resolve these apparent Biblical contradictions.
There is more to our having God’s forgiveness, than God just unconditional forgiving us, but this “more” will not mean God’s forgiving is conditional.
The “conditional” part for the potential receiver of forgiveness is found in completing the definition of forgiveness and not in the part the forgiver plays (God).
In order to complete the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person being forgiven has to humble accept that forgiveness as pure, undeserved charity.
The unmerciful servant did not humbly accept the Master’s unconditional forgiving as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. We know this because he did not Love much and he still owes the money.
Again, it is not the Master taking His unconditional forgiveness back, but forgiveness itself, by definition did not happen.
How does this explanation address the question: “How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”
Are we responsible for following up on those we have forgiven to see if forgiveness took place?
Look back at the Prodigal son:
When did the Father, first forgive His young son?
When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven?
When did the young son humbly accept the Father’s unconditional forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?
When was the son just willing to humbly accept the Father’s unbelievable, undeserved, unconditional charity?
Are we all already forgiven by God, yet some are still not accepting that charitable gift as pure undeserved charity?
As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Matt. 18: 21-35
God’s Definition of Forgiveness
When sincere Christians differ, it mostly has to do with differences in their assumptions including differences in the definitions of the same words their using.
“Forgiveness” is one of those words we have different definitions for that causes “doctrinal” differences between sincere Christians.
I feel Christ is giving us Deity’s definition for “forgiveness” in Matt. 18:21-35, “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”.
Most commentaries give us what the parable does not say and only the ending “Moral to the Story” (forgive others) without getting into the factual details and explain what appears to be God taking back His forgiving.

We need to figure out the “question” the parable is addressing and the context.
Just prior to the parable we have:
Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”
Peter asks a good question and seems generous by providing his take on the answer of “is it seven times”, since three times is the Old Testament was given.
Christ makes a huge change by saying 77 times (virtually saying: “always”), so it is important to try to put yourself in their shoes hearing this idea for the first time, do you think the disciples would be thinking: “How is this change going to impact my life”, this is normal people’s thinking with new information. So will they will go on to think “How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”
We know from all other previous encounters: Jesus knowing their thinking, so He will address in a parable their problem with His previous answer, by giving them the true definition for “forgiveness”.

First off: This debt is totally unbelievably huge, no one has that kind of money to lend, no one could get into anywhere near this kind of “debt”, and there was no way to make that kind of payment. It is actually hard to believe one person could even spend this much money in a life time in the first century.
Matt 18:25 “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered…” Here we know the Master knew there is no way to pay this debt and this servant entrusted with such a huge responsibility would also realize he could never pay it back.
Matt 18: 26 “…‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’” This servant is not asking for unconditional forgiveness, but “more time”, with the promise of paying it back in full, but the Master is not an idiot, the Master just previously said there is no way to pay this debt, and since this servant has been entrusted with and spent already 10,000 talents, he knows he cannot earn that amount. The servant is lying to the Master and maybe lying to himself.
When the Master: canceled (forgave) the debt and let him go, what did the servant “hear” (think) and possibly believe: “Oh the Master accepted my offer”, “I got time”, “I did OK”, “The Master does not care about the money”, or “the master must really like me”?
Luke 7: 36-50. Christ teaches us this truism: “He that is forgiven much Loves much” so Godly type Love would come automatically if a person was forgiven of an unbelievable huge Debt meaning he will automatically receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so how is it possible for this “forgiven” servant to not Love one of the Master’s servants and treat him graciously?
Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned, so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full, since it is a forgiven debt?
If we take all these Biblical truisms and allow them to define “Forgiveness” instead of taking our definition of forgiveness and force us to make an acceptation for God (Allow God to mislead us (lie)) Deity’s definition will resolve these apparent Biblical contradictions.
There is more to our having God’s forgiveness, than God just unconditional forgiving us, but this “more” will not mean God’s forgiving is conditional.
The “conditional” part for the potential receiver of forgiveness is found in completing the definition of forgiveness and not in the part the forgiver plays (God).
In order to complete the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person being forgiven has to humble accept that forgiveness as pure, undeserved charity.
The unmerciful servant did not humbly accept the Master’s unconditional forgiving as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. We know this because he did not Love much and he still owes the money.
Again, it is not the Master taking His unconditional forgiveness back, but forgiveness itself, by definition did not happen.
How does this explanation address the question: “How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”
Are we responsible for following up on those we have forgiven to see if forgiveness took place?
Look back at the Prodigal son:
When did the Father, first forgive His young son?
When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven?
When did the young son humbly accept the Father’s unconditional forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?
When was the son just willing to humbly accept the Father’s unbelievable, undeserved, unconditional charity?
Are we all already forgiven by God, yet some are still not accepting that charitable gift as pure undeserved charity?
As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
What you have presented is assumptive, not stated.
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,276
4,682
70
Tolworth
✟414,949.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I must not be explaining my point to you.
God always forgives because forgiving is an act of Love and God is Love.
What you are not getting is the fact "forgiveness" is a process/transaction requiring more than just God forgiving to complete.
You seem to think if God forgives than forgiveness took place so your conclusion is man must first repent for God to forgive, but that means God i not "Loving" by forgiving, yet God is loving by forgiving.
We do not need to hear about God not Loving in any and all ways, but the problem is with man not humbly accepting that forgiveness as pure charity.
I think we are talking at cross purposes.
As I understand it, Jesus paid/atoned for ALL sin, they are ALL forgiven, but that forgiveness is not applied untill the sinner repents.

Is that what you understand.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,897
1,938
✟1,023,016.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think we are talking at cross purposes.
As I understand it, Jesus paid/atoned for ALL sin, they are ALL forgiven, but that forgiveness is not applied untill the sinner repents.

Is that what you understand.
No.
Yes, Jesus was crucified for all sins.
It is not that the "forgiven is not applied", it is the fact most people do not humbly accept God's forgiving them, so forgiveness does not take place. One idea puts the man having to do something before God does something and the other has God doing everything first and the results are up to man.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
30,182
7,780
North Carolina
✟367,563.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No.
Yes, Jesus was crucified for all sins.
It is not that the "forgiven is not applied", it is the fact most people do not humbly accept God's forgiving them,
Nowhere found in Scripture. . .a fabricated notion of man.
so forgiveness does not take place. One idea puts the man having to do something before God does something and the other has God doing everything first and the results are up to man.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,897
1,938
✟1,023,016.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Nowhere found in Scripture. . .a fabricated notion of man.


Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;

Do not blame God for not forgiving, but the person God is trying to forgive will not humbly accept the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce follow-up questions immediately, but the apostles are slow to ask Jesus what is on their hearts which we find throughout scripture. The parable is the follow-up answer to this question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asked: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this, but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?

In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.

This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not expect to hear, “Your debt has been totally forgiven”, so what did he hear?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?

I do not “loan” my employee money any more, but I am happy to let them decide how much their need compares to the need of Christians in Ukraine, because the money will go to them or Ukraine as pure charity. Some did have big needs, which I was glad to help with, but I have reduced the total money, I loaned out and lost to people, who took loans before quitting or being fired.





Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.

Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).

Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again.

These moments are teaching moments.

God turning something over to you to become your possession saying “here it is it is yours now” that is a promise He is making. You can do with it as you please (sell it, give it away) but since God made the commitment (promise) He cannot just take it back.

God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,869
29,549
Pacific Northwest
✟829,971.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Christ died for all. All sins are forgiven. But we cannot benefit unless that forgiveness is proclaimed to us through the Gospel and trust in it--that's faith, faith which God gives as pure gift.

If I am a guilty man locked in a prison door, and the judge declares my pardon in the court, I need the court agent to come with the key to unlock my cell door to free me.

The court occurred on Mt. Calvary, where God declared us pardoned on Christ's account. Christ gave His Church the Keys to go and unlock the prison doors and set the prisoners free, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them", that through the preaching of the Gospel comes to us salvation and freedom and forgiveness, through faith alone.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0