Unconditional Forgiveness?

[Tolworth John]

This brings up the question of what constituted "repentance" and is it a condition for forgiveness and thus what is forgiveness?

Repentance, apology, saying sorry to whom?
If it is to you for an offence against you. Then you have to decide whether that it is a sincere act or merely an attempt to avoid or limit punishment/repayment etc.

Two verses from Luke.
Luke 17:3 makes repentance a prior comitment before there is forgiveness and
Luke 18:10-14 the two men who went to pray.

God knows our thoughts, our motives for doing something and he knows when we are sorry and when we only appear to be sorry.

 

[Hawkins]

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How do we reconcile this understanding of biblical forgiveness with Christ’s words in Luke 23:34? “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Note three details:

First, Christ has authority to forgive sins (Luke 5:20–24; 7:49), but He doesn’t forgive these men. Why doesn’t He offer them forgiveness at that very moment? Why doesn’t He turn to them, and say, “I offer you unconditional forgiveness for what you’re doing.”

Second, Christ does forgive one of the thieves on the cross: “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Although the term isn’t used, forgiveness is clearly implied. Christ utters this declaration of forgiveness in response to the thief’s confession of sin. Interestingly, Christ doesn’t offer forgiveness to the other thief who ridicules Him. Why not?

Third, Christ asks His Father to forgive these men. I believe His request pertains to something that’s going to happen in the future. I believe the only conclusion we can make is that – at some point in their lives – these men repent of their sin, and God forgives them.

Repentance is naturally the pre-requisite of forgiveness. I often use this example. A widow has 10 children while a murderer killed one of them. Now the murderer looks for her forgiveness while swearing the he's going to kill her 2nd child till all of them are killed. Does it make any senese for the widow to forgive him while he continues to kill her boys? It doesn't make any sense. It only make sense when the murderer stops harming her children and regrets his deeds, and only then it makes sense for him to look for the widow's forgiveness. In this case, repentance is the prerequisite of forgiveness.

On the other hand, one may not fully realize the harm his caused to others and thus did not repent. Repentance is based on how you are aware of doing harms to others. In the case that you are unware of the harms you might have done, you won't be able to repent, while the one being harmed may choose to forgive you with your ignorance. That's why Jesus can look for God forgiving those who harmed Him wihtout actually knowing that He came for their very salvation. However, God's salvation is in accordance to Law and covenants, Jesus thus only forgave the thief who has faith in Jesus. He can thus pray that others will be saved by having the same faith in Christ as the New Covenant specifies.

 

[Jonaitis]

If repentance is not required for forgiveness, then what is "forgiveness"?

 

[Clare73]

If repentance is not required for forgiveness, then what is "forgiveness"?

Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."
Our debt is cancelled because Jesus paid it for us.
Forgiveness is by faith.

 

[bling]

Repentance, apology, saying sorry to whom?
If it is to you for an offence against you. Then you have to decide whether that it is a sincere act or merely an attempt to avoid or limit punishment/repayment etc.

Two verses from Luke.
Luke 17:3 makes repentance a prior comitment before there is forgiveness and
Luke 18:10-14 the two men who went to pray.

God knows our thoughts, our motives for doing something and he knows when we are sorry and when we only appear to be sorry.

In Matt 18 and really every other place, we have God forgiving first, but that does not mean the transaction of forgiveness takes place (is completed), since the person has to humbly accept that forgiveness (repent) to complete the forgiveness. It is not God holding His forgiving back until the person repents, but forgiveness taking place. Look at the prodigal son story, when did the father forgive the young son and when was the transaction of forgiveness completed? When do you forgive your rebellious disobedient children?

 

[Jonaitis]

Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."
Our debt is cancelled because Jesus paid it for us.
Forgiveness is by faith.

Thus, a transaction.

 

[bling]

Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."
Our debt is cancelled because Jesus paid it for us.
Forgiveness is by faith.

No it does not!
It is not used much in accounting at all.
Forgiving a debt means there was no payment made (this is also true for accounting and can be used as a complete tax right off in the USA.)
If any "payment" is made for the debt in accounting the payment value must be assessed and that portion cannot be written off.
The debt is thus not forgiven, by accounting rules.
mean that. The debt can be "cancelled" for many reasons with a payment.

 

[Clare73]

Thus, a transaction.

And?

 

[Clare73]

No it does not!
It is not used much in accounting at all.

Do a little homework on the background in accounting

Forgiving a debt means there was no payment made (this is also true for accounting and can be used as a complete tax right off in the USA.)
If any "payment" is made for the debt in accounting the payment value must be assessed and that portion cannot be written off.
The debt is thus not forgiven, by accounting rules.
mean that. The debt can be "cancelled" for many reasons with a payment.

Forgiveness is cancelling a debt.

 

[Jonaitis]

And?

You agree with the OP.

 

[Clare73]

You agree with the OP.

Repentance is a change of mind, a turning.

 

[bling]

Do a little homework on the background in accounting

Forgiveness is cancelling a debt.

To get my MBA, I took several accounting courses, can you reference any account textbook that suggests "Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt.""
Forgiving a debt does cancel the debt, but paying the debt off also cancels the debt, but is not forgiving the debt in any language including accounting.
God forgives the debt and none of the debt is paid (that is two different actions.

 

[Clare73]

To get my MBA, I took several accounting courses, can you reference any account textbook that suggests "Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt.""
Forgiving a debt does cancel the debt, but paying the debt off also cancels the debt,

Both are forgiveness (cancellation) of the debt.

but is not forgiving the debt in any language including accounting.
God forgives the debt and none of the debt is paid (that is two different actions.

Check out the student loan forgiveness program.
Check out some financial terminology from decades ago (the Bible has been around for a while).

 

[Tolworth John]

but that does not mean the transaction of forgiveness takes place (is completed), since the person has to humbly accept that forgiveness (repent) to complete the forgiveness.

Untill the sinner repents they are not forgiven.
That is the condition found through out the bible.

 

[bling]

Both are forgiveness (cancellation) of the debt.

Again, this is not true: "Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."", it is not an accounting term but is used in accounting. Forgiving is more a Loving term of the person being harm/offended and not holding a debt against the person.
If the debt is paid in full some way, then it was not forgiven but paid (that is the way accountants address it.

Check out the student loan forgiveness program.
Check out some financial terminology from decades ago (the Bible has been around for a while).

Where do you first find and especially in scripture, where a debt paid is said to be forgiven (you can try to use Christ's death because that is what is in question).

The government insured the student's loan, so if the student does not pay the bank, the Government is on the hock to really collect the money from the student directly, Yes, we are talking about student loan forgiveness, but the bank is not forgiving the loan, since the government is paying them, the Government is forgiving the loan by not going after the student to collect their money, but no one is paying the government, so it is forgiveness.

 

[Clare73]

Again, this is not true: "Forgiveness is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of debt."", it is not an accounting term but is used in accounting.

Which is the meaning of "accounting term," like debit and credit.

 

[bling]

Untill the sinner repents they are not forgiven.
That is the condition found through out the bible.

Jesus asked the Father to forgive those involved in His crucifixion, so did God forgive them?

We forgive our children before they even ask, but our responsibility does not stop with just our forgiving.

Forgiving is an act of Godly type Love and since God is Love, God forgives.

The problem is not with God withholding Love/forgiveness it is with man humbly accepting the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.

When you say: God does not forgive until you repent, you are also saying God is not Loving until the person does something “deserving” like repenting, yet God is always Loving with everyone all the time and it is man not accepting the Love and repenting to show His acceptance when forgiveness takes place (all from Matt. 18).

The “condition” is not so God can forgive, but the “condition” allows forgiveness to take place and not be God’s fault.

 

[bling]

Which is the meaning of accounting term, like debit and credit.

Debit is the entry on the left side of the books and credit is made on the right side of the books, that is Accounting 101. One person's credit might be another company/person's debt.

 

[bling]

Which is the meaning of "accounting term," like debit and credit.

Which does not mean what you said it meant.

 

[Clare73]

Which does not mean what you said it meant.

But I did not say what "accounting term" means.

However, it means terms that are used in accounting; e.g., forgiveness, debit, credit, etc.