Unconditional Election question...

[frost]

If a person feels called to God and then professes their faith in Christ, but then later denies his or her faith, does that mean he/she was never part of the "the elect" or that they were but then lost it?

Over in another forum, there were several posts by people who are "former Christians" and so this question occured to me. Were they just never part of God's Elect to begin with?

God Bless

 

[TWells]

I guess those of the Calvinist/Reformed persuassion would say that if they persist in unbelief till death then they were never really saved. This is more of a issue with the P in TULIP than the U or Eternal Securuity, OSAS etc. I still havent decided on the issue.

 

[frost]

bump...any other thoughts on this?

 

[EJO]

I think, and that is the first problem...

but, here is my OPINION...
I agree with some on the TULIP. Especially the Eternal Security part, but I do not see the U - (Unconditional Election) and how it can be that God only loves certain people, and not others. But I do see God does chose certain people for various things, because he knows our hearts. I think of Moses, or Paul in this case. Also, hand in hand with that is the L- Limited Atonement.
I guess you can say, I am a TIP....
For the P part, look at John 10:30, no one can snatch them out of christ's hand. but it does nothing to say that they can get hard hearts.

 

[EJO]

I guess I am half Arminian and half Calvanist...

 

[Reformationist]

If a person feels called to God and then professes their faith in Christ, but then later denies his or her faith, does that mean he/she was never part of the "the elect" or that they were but then lost it?

Over in another forum, there were several posts by people who are "former Christians" and so this question occured to me. Were they just never part of God's Elect to begin with?

God Bless

The only measure we have of, in any way, determining this, and believe me it is not an exhaustive method, is to judge the validity of their faith by whether or not they came back to faith in God before they died. Those who are truly of the elect of God can, and often do, fall into sin that separates them for a time from the fellowship of the Lord that they once enjoyed. This is not a separation on His part but rather a separation of ourselves from His Word.

Let me make one point very clear. The Lord has never tasked us, nor should we task ourselves with determining whether someone has been elected unto salvation by God. That is something that He has not revealed to us nor is it something that we should seek to determine by any means. What we are commanded to do is to evangelize the lost and love our God and our neighbor. This love transcends any guesses we may make about the unrevealed Will of our Savior and the Plan He has for mankind. To seek to know the unrevealed Will of God is pure folly. If we see our brother in sin we should seek to, by the grace of God, help him repent and turn back to the Truth that he once embraced.

God bless

 

[frost]

It seems many people have problems with Limited Atonement. To me, it makes perfect sense. If Christ's purpose was to atone for all man's sins then he obviously failed because some are going to hell. Unconditional Election goes hand in hand with it. He simply chose some to be saved based on his sovereignty not on any of our own merits. Both of these doctrines make me feel all the more special, as it was HE that chose you and me, not us choosing him. What grace and mercy our Lord has!

Those who are truly of the elect of God can, and often do, fall into sin that separates them for a time from the fellowship of the Lord that they once enjoyed. This is not a separation on His part but rather a separation of ourselves from His Word.

Well put.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

I have to admit - although I am not sold on this - it sounds better every time I hear it. I am from a Reformed circle.

I heard a Calvy once say he believes in Free Will - just not the way an Arminian does. Even heard of Calvy's 'asking Jesus into their heart.' Anyone want to help me on this?

 

[Tami]

I guess I am half Arminian and half Calvanist...

I guess that makes you a Calminian.

Tami

 

[frost]

I have been studying Calvinism for about a year and the more I read it, the more I'm convinced it's accurate. It has also changed the way I feel about God. Before, it was always about me. I chose him. I made the decision to follow him. To think that he chose US, is a bit humbling and seems to drive home even more, the love that God has for us. There are still some things I don't understand, however. I was raised to believe that God wanted us to make the decision to follow him, that this is the real test of our love for him. That he didn't create robots because he wanted us to choose him. It's a tough idea to refute and biblical passages seem to support both sides, to some extent. Overall though, the ideas of TULIP just seem to make sense to me.

Concerning free will, I believe both free will and predestination can be possible with God. Think of Judas. He made the decision to betray Jesus out of his own free will. But as we know, it was part of God's plan and thus predestined to happen.

 

[Reformationist]

It has also changed the way I feel about God. Before, it was always about me. I chose him. I made the decision to follow him. To think that he chose US, is a bit humbling and seems to drive home even more, the love that God has for us.

Amen.

There are still some things I don't understand, however. I was raised to believe that God wanted us to make the decision to follow him, that this is the real test of our love for him.

God does want us to make the decision to follow Him. And those that are saved do make the decision to follow Him. One of the main differences between classical reformed theology and the mainstream anthropocentric views that have become very popular is that reformed Christians believe that regeneration proceeds faith, in the linear sense. If we are regenerated from death unto life because of a decision that we make then we fall back into a works based theology that is, once again, man centered.

That he didn't create robots because he wanted us to choose him. It's a tough idea to refute and biblical passages seem to support both sides, to some extent.

Just so you know, reformed Christianity does not believe that man becomes some unthinking robot who follows God as he is programmed to do. On the contrary, the ironic thing about the debates on free will between Calvinists and Arminianists is that Calvinists believe that man is only truly free when God has regenerated him. In his natural, fallen state he is in bondage to his sinfulness and, though he freely chooses even in that state, he will always freely choose according to his greatest desire. That greatest desire will never be to glorify the Lord so fallen, unregenerate man will freely choose to not glorify God.

[Concerning free will, I believe both free will and predestination can be possible with God.

The antinomy isn't really between freewill and predestination but rather man's freewill and responsibility and God's sovereignty.

Think of Judas. He made the decision to betray Jesus out of his own free will. But as we know, it was part of God's plan and thus predestined to happen.

Absolutely. These two, man's freewill and God's sovereignty are actually friends in the Word. They run parallel to each other. However, when man's freewill bumps into God's sovereign design for His creation, man's freewill must yield.

God bless

 

[frost]

Amen.



God does want us to make the decision to follow Him. And those that are saved do make the decision to follow Him. One of the main differences between classical reformed theology and the mainstream anthropocentric views that have become very popular is that reformed Christians believe that regeneration proceeds faith, in the linear sense. If we are regenerated from death unto life because of a decision that we make then we fall back into a works based theology that is, once again, man centered.



Just so you know, reformed Christianity does not believe that man becomes some unthinking robot who follows God as he is programmed to do. On the contrary, the ironic thing about the debates on free will between Calvinists and Arminianists is that Calvinists believe that man is only truly free when God has regenerated him. In his natural, fallen state he is in bondage to his sinfulness and, though he freely chooses even in that state, he will always freely choose according to his greatest desire. That greatest desire will never be to glorify the Lord so fallen, unregenerate man will freely choose to not glorify God.



The antinomy isn't really between freewill and predestination but rather man's freewill and responsibility and God's sovereignty.



Absolutely. These two, man's freewill and God's sovereignty are actually friends in the Word. They run parallel to each other. However, when man's freewill bumps into God's sovereign design for His creation, man's freewill must yield.

God bless

God does want us to make the decision to follow Him.

I still don't see how can can want us to do what he's pre-destined us to do. No matter what, the elect are going to be saved. He doesn't have to want us to, it's just going to happen.

One of the main differences between classical reformed theology and the mainstream anthropocentric views that have become very popular is that reformed Christians believe that regeneration proceeds faith, in the linear sense. If we are regenerated from death unto life because of a decision that we make then we fall back into a works based theology that is, once again, man centered.



Just so you know, reformed Christianity does not believe that man becomes some unthinking robot who follows God as he is programmed to do. On the contrary, the ironic thing about the debates on free will between Calvinists and Arminianists is that Calvinists believe that man is only truly free when God has regenerated him. In his natural, fallen state he is in bondage to his sinfulness and, though he freely chooses even in that state, he will always freely choose according to his greatest desire. That greatest desire will never be to glorify the Lord so fallen, unregenerate man will freely choose to not glorify God.

I agree completely. Thanks for your response.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Reformationalist...I see now - you have explained this well. As you know, I come from a Reformed Denomination (although not everyone is a Calvinist so to say.) And I have been on the fence on where I stand for awhile now.

Is it correct to say that Calvinists believe in the following:

Man has free will, however - prior to conversion it is world centred - after regeneration, it is yeilding to God.

Once saved, we still can, and do choose to do opposite of what God calls us to, for we are sinners...however, we are now ABLE to choose the right (God centered), where prior to being saved - we could only make self centered decisions.

So....Calvinists are not against 'free will' in any sense - however, disagree that it was our free will that got us saved. They do not argue that man has free will, however, believe that God saves us through His Grace - once we receive that Grace, only then can we choose God. Is that correct?

Also, can you please answer the question I posted a few threads back? Thanks

Blessings

PS - I know the topic is Unconditional Election - but this does fall into that.

 

[Reformationist]

I still don't see how can can want us to do what he's pre-destined us to do. No matter what, the elect are going to be saved. He doesn't have to want us to, it's just going to happen.

The concept of "the elect will be saved no matter what" is a bit misleading. Yes, the elect of God will be saved. However, it is not an issue of "the elect are going to be saved no matter what." The Lord has ordained the way His elect will be brought to faith in Him. It is through the preaching of the Word.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationalist...I see now - you have explained this well. As you know, I come from a Reformed Denomination (although not everyone is a Calvinist so to say.) And I have been on the fence on where I stand for awhile now.

Is it correct to say that Calvinists believe in the following:

Man has free will, however - prior to conversion it is world centred - after regeneration, it is yeilding to God.

Once saved, we still can, and do choose to do opposite of what God calls us to, for we are sinners...however, we are now ABLE to choose the right (God centered), where prior to being saved - we could only make self centered decisions.

So....Calvinists are not against 'free will' in any sense - however, disagree that it was our free will that got us saved. They do not argue that man has free will, however, believe that God saves us through His Grace - once we receive that Grace, only then can we choose God. Is that correct?

That sounds quite correct.

Also, can you please answer the question I posted a few threads back?

This one:

Even heard of Calvy's 'asking Jesus into their heart.' Anyone want to help me on this?

If so, a Christian who says they "asked Jesus into their heart," regardless of their theological stance on the Word, often use that phrase in more of a colloquial way than any real indicator of their belief on the order of the regenerative process. If a Calvinist were actually saying that the reason that Jesus came into their heart is because they, in their fallen state, "asked Him into their heart" then I'd have to say they don't really understand what it means to be a Calvinist and they are probably not really a Calvinist.

God bless

 

[A. believer]

Reformationist,

I migrated here from the Left Behind Message Boards that just today became a paying forum, and although I'm also a member and regular poster over at Eric Svendsen's New Testament Research Ministries board (which is run and moderated by Reformed believers, but where there's a strong focus on interaction with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox defenders), it's utterly refreshing to see the Reformed position being explained and defended on a board and a forum where many are genuinely interested, but unclear about its Biblical soundness.

On the Left Behind board, I believe I was the only Reformed believer who was a regular poster, and most of my time and energy has been in interactions with Roman Catholics. In fact, my own Reformed convictions were formed in the process of learning about the foundations of Roman Catholicism. Anyway, your presence is a blessing!

Ree

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationist,

I migrated here from the Left Behind Message Boards that just today became a paying forum, and although I'm also a member and regular poster over at Eric Svendsen's New Testament Research Ministries board (which is run and moderated by Reformed believers, but where there's a strong focus on interaction with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox defenders), it's utterly refreshing to see the Reformed position being explained and defended on a board and a forum where many are genuinely interested, but unclear about its Biblical soundness.

On the Left Behind board, I believe I was the only Reformed believer who was a regular poster, and most of my time and energy has been in interactions with Roman Catholics. In fact, my own Reformed convictions were formed in the process of learning about the foundations of Roman Catholicism. Anyway, your presence is a blessing!

Ree

Thank you so much for the kind words. I spent a bit of time on the LBMB a couple of years ago when I was reading all the Left Behind books. I, too, came to hold the faith that I have only over the last few years but it has been the most freeing, enlightening, humbling experience of my entire life.

God bless,
Don

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

A Believer - welcome to the boards!!!

 

[A. believer]

Thank you so much for the kind words. I spent a bit of time on the LBMB a couple of years ago when I was reading all the Left Behind books.

I wonder if I'd remember you. I was there for about three years. What name did you post under?

I, too, came to hold the faith that I have only over the last few years but it has been the most freeing, enlightening, humbling experience of my entire life.

Amen!

And thanks, HopeTheyDance, for the welcome. It's good to be here.

 

[MariaRegina]

My dearest Ree:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Welcome.

YSIC

Elizabeth