R
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
- Status
R
R.J.S
Guest
Question one: There was already a church in existence at Pentecost. The Scripture does not say that the believers at Pentecost were formed into the church. It says they were added to the church (Acts 2:41). A thing must first exist before anything can be added to it (Baker, A Dispensational Theology, p. 483).
ANSWER: Baker fails to distinguish between two clear-cut groups that are found present on the day of Pentecost. First there was the group that was assembled in Acts 2:1 which was made up of the 120 disciples mentioned in Acts 1:15. It was on these that the Spirit was poured out in such a remarkable way as recorded in Acts 2:2-13. These 120 disciples were the first recipients of the Spirit and thus the first members of the church. The second clear-cut group at Pentecost was the multitude of unsaved Jews out of which about 3000 were saved as the result of Peters preaching (Acts 2:41). So it makes good sense to say that the 3000 were added to the saved body of 120 that already existed.
The context of Acts 2:41 concerns those who received his (Peters) word . This would be the multitude (Acts 2:5-6) not those in the house (Acts 2:2). The Body of Christ or church was born in Acts 2:1-4 and later in the day three thousand souls (Acts 2:41) were added to the church (added to the core group of 120).
The Scriptures clearly teach that the believers at Pentecost were formed into the church. The proof is found in a correct, Biblical understanding of the doctrine of Spirit baptism.
The key passage on Spirit baptism is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. The ONE BODY spoken of in this verse refers to the CHURCH (see 1 Cor. 12:27-28; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:30-32; Col. 1:18), the Body of which Christ is the Head. Spirit baptism is defined in 1Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christs body, the church. How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by Spirit baptism.
The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began.
Spirit baptism was first predicted by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 (and in the parallel passages: Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33): I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit), and with fire (Matt. 3:11).
Johns baptism was a water baptism (I baptize you with water); Christs baptism would be a spiritual baptism (He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit). The fire baptism is for the unsaved and this is yet future (see Matthew 3:12). Notice the phrase, He shall baptize you with (Greek-en) the Holy Spirit. The verb shall baptize is in the future tense, indicating that Spirit baptism had not yet taken place when John the Baptist spoke these words. John was predicting that it would happen in the future, but he did not predict exactly when it would happen. Notice also that Christ is the Baptizer. He is the One who will place believers into the body of Christ. He is the One who will build His church. Christ is also the Baptizer in 1 Corinthians 12:13, as will be shown later.
In Matthew 16:18 the Lord Jesus said, I WILL build My Church. The future tense of the verb indicates that the building of the church had not yet begun when Jesus said these words. He did not say, I have built My church. He did not say, I am building My church. No, the building project had not yet begun and thus the Church was yet future. At the time Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 the church had not yet begun.
Today Christ is building His church. He is adding to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:47). But the question is, when did this building program first begin?
In Acts 1:5 the Lord Jesus predicted that Spirit baptism was still future: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:5).
According to our Lords prediction, Spirit baptism had not taken place yet, though it would soon take place. No one had yet been immersed into the body of Christ. Thus, the church could not have begun prior to Acts 1:5. When Jesus spoke the words of Acts 1:5 His death and His resurrection had already taken place, and yet Spirit baptism had not yet taken place and the church had not yet been formed. But the announcement of Acts 1:5 was very significant because Jesus said that Spirit baptism would take place not many days hence (not many days from now). This means that it would happen soon, in a matter of days. Indeed, as we shall learn, it happened just 10 days later on the day of Pentecost.
The Day of Pentecost and the unique events that took place on that day are described in Acts chapter 2. In this chapter Spirit baptism is not specifically mentioned. It is not until Acts chapter 11 that we are specifically told that Spirit baptism took place on the day of Pentecost: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning [on the Day of Pentecost]. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:15-16). Based on the clear statement of this passage we know that Spirit baptism first took place on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that believers were first placed into the body of Christ. It was then that the church began.
In light of these certain facts, Pentecost stands out as the birthday of the church while the Scriptures are silent on a new organism being born later in the book of Acts (such as in Acts 9, Acts 13 or Acts 28) as ultradispensationalists would claim.
For more see: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/baker12.htm
ANSWER: Baker fails to distinguish between two clear-cut groups that are found present on the day of Pentecost. First there was the group that was assembled in Acts 2:1 which was made up of the 120 disciples mentioned in Acts 1:15. It was on these that the Spirit was poured out in such a remarkable way as recorded in Acts 2:2-13. These 120 disciples were the first recipients of the Spirit and thus the first members of the church. The second clear-cut group at Pentecost was the multitude of unsaved Jews out of which about 3000 were saved as the result of Peters preaching (Acts 2:41). So it makes good sense to say that the 3000 were added to the saved body of 120 that already existed.
The context of Acts 2:41 concerns those who received his (Peters) word . This would be the multitude (Acts 2:5-6) not those in the house (Acts 2:2). The Body of Christ or church was born in Acts 2:1-4 and later in the day three thousand souls (Acts 2:41) were added to the church (added to the core group of 120).
The Scriptures clearly teach that the believers at Pentecost were formed into the church. The proof is found in a correct, Biblical understanding of the doctrine of Spirit baptism.
The key passage on Spirit baptism is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. The ONE BODY spoken of in this verse refers to the CHURCH (see 1 Cor. 12:27-28; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:30-32; Col. 1:18), the Body of which Christ is the Head. Spirit baptism is defined in 1Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christs body, the church. How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by Spirit baptism.
The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began.
Spirit baptism was first predicted by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11 (and in the parallel passages: Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33): I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (Spirit), and with fire (Matt. 3:11).
Johns baptism was a water baptism (I baptize you with water); Christs baptism would be a spiritual baptism (He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit). The fire baptism is for the unsaved and this is yet future (see Matthew 3:12). Notice the phrase, He shall baptize you with (Greek-en) the Holy Spirit. The verb shall baptize is in the future tense, indicating that Spirit baptism had not yet taken place when John the Baptist spoke these words. John was predicting that it would happen in the future, but he did not predict exactly when it would happen. Notice also that Christ is the Baptizer. He is the One who will place believers into the body of Christ. He is the One who will build His church. Christ is also the Baptizer in 1 Corinthians 12:13, as will be shown later.
In Matthew 16:18 the Lord Jesus said, I WILL build My Church. The future tense of the verb indicates that the building of the church had not yet begun when Jesus said these words. He did not say, I have built My church. He did not say, I am building My church. No, the building project had not yet begun and thus the Church was yet future. At the time Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 16:18 the church had not yet begun.
Today Christ is building His church. He is adding to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:47). But the question is, when did this building program first begin?
In Acts 1:5 the Lord Jesus predicted that Spirit baptism was still future: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:5).
According to our Lords prediction, Spirit baptism had not taken place yet, though it would soon take place. No one had yet been immersed into the body of Christ. Thus, the church could not have begun prior to Acts 1:5. When Jesus spoke the words of Acts 1:5 His death and His resurrection had already taken place, and yet Spirit baptism had not yet taken place and the church had not yet been formed. But the announcement of Acts 1:5 was very significant because Jesus said that Spirit baptism would take place not many days hence (not many days from now). This means that it would happen soon, in a matter of days. Indeed, as we shall learn, it happened just 10 days later on the day of Pentecost.
The Day of Pentecost and the unique events that took place on that day are described in Acts chapter 2. In this chapter Spirit baptism is not specifically mentioned. It is not until Acts chapter 11 that we are specifically told that Spirit baptism took place on the day of Pentecost: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning [on the Day of Pentecost]. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:15-16). Based on the clear statement of this passage we know that Spirit baptism first took place on the Day of Pentecost. It was then that believers were first placed into the body of Christ. It was then that the church began.
In light of these certain facts, Pentecost stands out as the birthday of the church while the Scriptures are silent on a new organism being born later in the book of Acts (such as in Acts 9, Acts 13 or Acts 28) as ultradispensationalists would claim.
For more see: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/baker12.htm
Upvote
0
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
- Sep 22, 2004
- 570
- 30
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Looks like Dispensationalism wins; and prooves Jesus and Stephen were both wrong!
Matthew 18:15-17
Jesus said, "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. "
Acts 7:37-37
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us"
Upvote
0
R
R.J.S
Guest
Dave Taylor said:
Just because the word 'church' is used does not mean it is talking about the church which is his body.
Upvote
0
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
- Sep 22, 2004
- 570
- 30
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
You are correct; obviously it was talking about the 'fake church'...the church that existed before Pentecost; that Stephen and Jesus both were wrong about.
Good catch!
Don't want any people of faith living 'before' Pentecost to be included in 'the real church' now do we?
Gotta segregate and keep those folks of faith in their lesser caste; so as not to confuse them with the people of faith that would come after Pentecost.
We would never want the faithful followers of the Lord who were saved before Pentecost to ever be included in the 'real church'....they just didn't cut the mustard well enough; and we must be sure to cast them out!
The church Jesus spoke about, that was in existance in Matthew 18 prior to Pentecost; was obviously a false-church; and one that didn't contain anyone within it that belonged to Him....for that matter, from a dispensational perspective; we shouldn't expect to find anyone prior to Pentecost who belonged to Christ and were a faithful follower of Him....because if we did; we would be forced to either exclude them from the post-Pentecost Church; or cast them out because they didn't belong to the church.
I guess then, if we are to be truly faithful to the dispensationalism doctrine; when the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, and saw Abraham there...it explains it clearly to us that Abraham too; was in hell; along with everyone who ever lived and died prior to Pentecost and the dispensational birthplace of the church.
Noone prior to Pentecost belonged to the Lord by grace through faith; for if they did they would be apart of His body; and we can't have that can we? (from a dispensational framework)...therefore everyone prior to Pentecost must be in hell.
What a raw deal; being born in the wrong time; and no amount of faith can make any difference....
It's a good thing that God is a respector of persons within the Dispensational paradigm; otherwise; it would get difficult in how and where to place all of those 'fake-faithful people' who appeared to follow the Lord before Pentecost; but obviously weren't apart of His body the church.
Good catch!
Don't want any people of faith living 'before' Pentecost to be included in 'the real church' now do we?
Gotta segregate and keep those folks of faith in their lesser caste; so as not to confuse them with the people of faith that would come after Pentecost.
We would never want the faithful followers of the Lord who were saved before Pentecost to ever be included in the 'real church'....they just didn't cut the mustard well enough; and we must be sure to cast them out!
The church Jesus spoke about, that was in existance in Matthew 18 prior to Pentecost; was obviously a false-church; and one that didn't contain anyone within it that belonged to Him....for that matter, from a dispensational perspective; we shouldn't expect to find anyone prior to Pentecost who belonged to Christ and were a faithful follower of Him....because if we did; we would be forced to either exclude them from the post-Pentecost Church; or cast them out because they didn't belong to the church.
I guess then, if we are to be truly faithful to the dispensationalism doctrine; when the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, and saw Abraham there...it explains it clearly to us that Abraham too; was in hell; along with everyone who ever lived and died prior to Pentecost and the dispensational birthplace of the church.
Noone prior to Pentecost belonged to the Lord by grace through faith; for if they did they would be apart of His body; and we can't have that can we? (from a dispensational framework)...therefore everyone prior to Pentecost must be in hell.
What a raw deal; being born in the wrong time; and no amount of faith can make any difference....
It's a good thing that God is a respector of persons within the Dispensational paradigm; otherwise; it would get difficult in how and where to place all of those 'fake-faithful people' who appeared to follow the Lord before Pentecost; but obviously weren't apart of His body the church.
Upvote
0
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
- Sep 22, 2004
- 570
- 30
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Sorry for the excessive Sarcasm Nancy....not trying to detract....just trying to get a point across in an indirect way; since the direct way sometimes doesn't get heard.
I don't believe Jesus gives one iota about 'when' and individual was born. Either all the OT people were saved by Christ and belong to Him; or they are all damned and lost in their sins; separated from Christ.
That is why the NT explains over and over again; that there is no Jew or Gentile...that Christ was concerned with the heart and the faith of man; not their pedigree or birthdate.
Do you Nancy, believe that our Lord is a respector of persons based on birthdate and fleshly lineage over faithfulness of the individual? Do you believe Jesus has two groups; one that is the 'really faithful' whom belong to Him; and a lesser group who is not quite as faithful; and doesn't quite really belong to Him?
Isn't this nothing more than a Hinduistic caste system that has infiltrated God's People?
I don't believe Jesus gives one iota about 'when' and individual was born. Either all the OT people were saved by Christ and belong to Him; or they are all damned and lost in their sins; separated from Christ.
That is why the NT explains over and over again; that there is no Jew or Gentile...that Christ was concerned with the heart and the faith of man; not their pedigree or birthdate.
Do you Nancy, believe that our Lord is a respector of persons based on birthdate and fleshly lineage over faithfulness of the individual? Do you believe Jesus has two groups; one that is the 'really faithful' whom belong to Him; and a lesser group who is not quite as faithful; and doesn't quite really belong to Him?
Isn't this nothing more than a Hinduistic caste system that has infiltrated God's People?
Upvote
0
nancy70x7
Member
Matthew 10:5-7 and Matthew 15:21-24 - The Lord Jesus, during His earthly ministry, made a distinction between different groups of people. He said His ministry was to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" exclusively, and He instructed His disciples to not go to the gentiles, but only to the Jews.
Luke 16:22,23 - says that Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom" (and that the angels carried him there) and that the rich man went to hell. There was a "great gulf fixed" between them and that neither could pass over to each other from their respective places. It sounds to me like Abraham was in his own place and all OT saints are in his "bosom". Hell was a different place. Abraham was not in hell.
There is only one place where Paul says "there is neither Jew nor gentile," Galatians 3:28. It would seem that he contradicts this statement in 1 Corinthians 10:32 which says "give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" - three distinct groups. The explanation is that there is neither Jew nor gentile only IN CHRIST. One is placed "in Christ" only through the baptism of the Spirit (baptism meaning "being placed into"). There is no Holy Spirit baptism before the birth of the Church in Acts 2. There is no concept of "in Christ" before the birth of the Church in Acts 2. There is no Church (meaning the body of Christ) before Acts 2. The Greek work for church is "eklesia" and its pure meaning is "a called-out body", or a group of people dedicated to a single purpose. Given eklesia's pure meaning, a group of people in a stadium watching a football game could be said to be an "eklesia" because they are all gathered together for a single purpose. The church mentioned in Matthew 18 is a group of people dedicated to following the Lord Jesus during His earthly ministry, but it is not the body of Christ.
Yes, I do indeed believe that God has two distinct groups of people. Pre Acts 2 believers are in no way inferior to post Acts 2 believers. God has a different program for each, and both fulfill God's plan of the ages for His creation. The Jews are God's chosen people that have been set aside only for a time. Jerusalem and its people have a distinct place of prominence in the Millennial Kingdom. They will rule the earth as God's earthly people. The body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ as God's heavenly people. Neither group is superior or inferior to the other, but there is a different agenda for each.
The Beginning of the Church: Its Birth and Revelation
While there is no one Bible verse that states when the church began, we can pinpoint the time of its "birth" with precision by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Let us begin by using the process of elimination.
The Church Was Not Revealed In the Old Testament
In Eph. 3:1-6, Paul states that he was given revelation of a marvelous mystery concerning the church. In vs.1-3, he was given revelation concerning a new dispensation, which he calls the dispensation of the grace of God. In vs.4, he notes that God gave him KNOWLEDGE in the mystery. Paul could never have discovered this truth on his own. (I Cor.2:7-10) God had to reveal this new truth or it could not be known. Paul was Gods chosen vessel to reveal this new truth relating to the church. In verse five he writes that these truths relating to this "mystery" (church truth) were NOT made known unto the sons of men in other ages. Paul makes it clear that there have been several "ages" dispensations in the past, though he does not name them all. In NONE of those ages was this truth made known. Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, or Jeremiah knew NOTHING about the coming of a church the Body of Christ. They ARE revealed now however, to the New Testament apostles and prophets. Those men received this truth from Paul.
Ephesians 3:6 records the central part of this mystery truth, namely, that Jews and Gentiles are now equal members of the SAME body the Body of Christ, the church. The Old Testament did reveal the fact that gentiles could come to the Light and be saved. (Isa.60:3) There is a lot of revelation in the Old Testament about Gentile participation in the Kingdom. This new revelation of the mystery is NOT additional revelation about gentile participation in the future Millennial Kingdom. This new revelation is about an entirely new & previously unrevealed plan & program of God. This new revelation has to do with a new entity which is called "one NEW Man" in Eph.2:15. It is entirely NEW. This One New Man (church consisting of both Jew & Gentile) came into being as a result of the reconciling work of the cross. Thus, this New Man could not have existed before the cross, and thus not in the Old Testament.
Throughout the Old Testament, no one knew about this glorious plan which was hidden in the mind and heart of God.
In Col. 1:26, Paul states that this new truth [called a mystery] had been HIDDEN from ages and from generations. In all those previous ages, NO ONE knew that one day God would form a new entity, a New Man, a New Race of men called new creatures IN CHRIST JESUS and in His Body, the church. This was all "hidden." It was not that this truth was revealed in the Old Testament, but that the saints back then were not discerning enough to see it or understand it. It was "hidden" in the mind of God and NOT revealed! They could not possibly have found it in the OT because it was not there! It was not only unknown, it was unknowable!
Note that it was not just hidden from the people in Old Testament times. It was hidden from the entire time period from the ages and generations. In other words, it would not be accurate to say that this truth is found in the Old Testament, but it was hidden from the understanding of OT saints. It was hidden from the entire age. Those former ages had NO such revelation!
The Church Was Not Revealed In the Gospels
In Matt.16:18, Jesus mentioned the church, but He never revealed what it was. He said, "I will build my church." Note also that in the gospels, the church is still FUTURE. (I will build ) We DO find in Matthew 13, parables of the kingdom. These parables describe the character of the age between Christs comings. This inter-advent period encompasses the time of Christs first coming until His Second Coming. The church age does fall within that time period. But so do the gospel period and the Tribulation Period. While a general description of "professing believers" and the character of the age are revealed here, there is NO truth directly relating to the establishment of or the nature of the church. It is a mystery until revealed to Paul.
Robert Newell wrote, "In His earthly ministry to Israel the Lord Jesus gave none of the great heavenly truths for the present Church dispensation. He but mentioned the Church, giving no explanation. Nor were these vital truths related to the Twelve Apostles." During the gospel period (Matthew John) the apostles knew NOTHING of an intervening program called the church the Body of Christ. At the end of the gospel period, the apostles were still anticipating the redemption of Israel and the Kingdom. (Luke 24:19-21) Throughout the gospel period, John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles spoke not a word about a church. Rather, their ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel exclusively. (Matt.10:5-7) Their message was "Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!" (Matt.10:7; 4:17; 3:1-2) Thus, we see that the church not revealed in the gospels. It was still FUTURE from the vantage point of the gospels.
The Church Could Not Begin Before the Cross. (Eph.2:13-16)
The church is called the "One New Man." (2:15) This New Man consists of Jew and Gentile "reconciled" (2:16) into ONE BODY. It was the cross that "reconciled" these two and made both one by breaking down the middle wall of partition (Mosaic Law) which formerly separated them (2:14-15). Since they were reconciled into one Body by the cross, this New Man could not exist before the cross. There was no church in the Old Testament, in the gospel period, and could not be a church before the cross.
It was not revealed in the Lords post-resurrection ministry.
Even after His resurrection, the Lord Jesus appeared to the disciples, and continued to teach them the things concerning the Kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3) He did NOT reveal to them the things concerning the church. In Acts 1:5, we learn that the apostles did not know when the baptism of the Spirit would occur. They knew that would occur soon, but this ministry of the Spirit had not yet begun. When it DID occur, Peter could only explain it in terms of the prophecies concerning the coming Kingdom (Acts 2:16-21). Peter knew only that the outpouring of the Spirit which they had just witnessed on the Day of Pentecost was like "that" described by Joel. Both were outpourings of the Holy Spirit. Peter did not say that Pentecost was a fulfillment of that prophecy or even a partial fulfillment. Rather, he said "this is that" (vs.16) same sort of thing a supernatural outpouring of the Spirit of God! The apostles were still expecting the Kingdom to begin at any time. (Acts 1:6) They had no idea that an intervening church age would occur.
It could not have begun before the ascension & glorification of Christ.
It was the risen and ascended Christ who SENT the Holy Spirit to begin His work of baptizing believers into the Body of Christ. (Acts 2:33) Paul tells us that God raised Christ from the dead and seated Him at his own right hand in the heavenly places and THEN made Him Head of the Body. (Eph. 1:20-23) Thus, the church was not formed until AFTER Christ was raised, ascended to heaven, and was seated at the right hand of the Father. If the church began before the ascension, then we have a Body without a Head!
It was the risen and ascended Christ who gave GIFTS unto men gifted men that the Body might function. (Eph. 4:8-12) The church cannot grow or function apart from its Head. (Col.2:19; Eph.4:15-16) The church could not have begun before the ascension, or it would have been a non-functioning Body! Anyone who tries to place the beginning of the church before the ascension of Christ will end up with a Body with no head and no functioning parts! Such a situation is unthinkable!
Also, this new relationship of the Spirit to believers could not begin until Christ was glorified. (John 7:39)
The church was built upon the foundation of the apostles and New Testament prophets. (Eph.2:19-22)
In context, Paul was speaking about BOTH Jew and Gentile as being reconciled in ONE New Man. (Eph. 2:13-18) Together, (Jew & Gentile) constitute the household of God in this age. (vs.19) I Tim.3:15 indicates that the household of God today is the church. Paul continues his description of the church by stating that it is a "house" or a "temple" built upon a foundation. (Eph. 2:20) The foundation consists of the New Testament apostles and prophets. Thus, the church was not built UNTIL the time of the New Testament apostles and prophets. [See also Eph.3:5. The word "now" indicates that Paul has New Testament prophets, not Old Testament prophets in mind.]
It begins by means of Spirit Baptism. (I Cor.12:13)
By means of the process of elimination, we have seen that the church could not have existed in the Old Testament, in the gospel period, before the Cross, during the post-resurrection ministry of Christ, or before the ascension and glorification of Christ as Head of the Body.
I Cor.12:13 states clearly HOW a person becomes a member of the Body of Christ, the church. That takes place by means of Spirit baptism. In this age, the Spirit of God places the believer INTO Christs Body at the moment of saving faith. There is no other way to get INTO Christ!
Yet, Spirit baptism was still future in Acts 1:5. However, by the time of Acts 11:15-16, it had already taken place. Here Peter states that the Gentiles had received the gift of the Spirit of God just as the Jewish believers in Christ had received at the beginning. The beginning obviously refers back to the beginning of the church as recorded in Acts chapter two! This was the beginning of the baptizing work of the Spirit of God.
Thus, in Acts 2:1-4, on the Day of Pentecost, we have pinpointed the exact BEGINNING of the church. It was then that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to begin His work of baptizing believing Jews & Gentiles into the Body of Christ occurred for the very first time in human history. Renald Showers wrote, "Although the church was an essential part of Gods plan for history which He determined in eternity past, God did not put that part of His plan into effect until ten days after His Son ascended from earth to heaven."
What difference does it make? Does it really matter when the church began?
The answer is YES! It matters greatly that we rightly divide the Word of truth and keep Gods plan for Israel separate and distinct from His plan for the church. There is a dangerous "blurring" of truth taking place in our generation. There seems to be a feverish attempt to blend together dispensational truth with Covenant/Reformed theology. Merging the two will result in legalistic living. Reformed Theology teaches justification by faith, but sanctification by self-discipline and law. That results in nothing but defeat and frustration for the believer! (Rom.7:14-25) If we are ever going to have right concept of what the church is & what it is not, we need to study what the Bible says about this new Man! A right understanding of the church will keep us from confusing it with earthly Israel. It will keep us away from the errors of liturgical type churches, from the errors of the Reconstructionist movement, and countless other errors! It will also keep us focused on what our function in the world ought to be: to manifest the indwelling life of Christ! Doctrine affects practice.
Luke 16:22,23 - says that Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom" (and that the angels carried him there) and that the rich man went to hell. There was a "great gulf fixed" between them and that neither could pass over to each other from their respective places. It sounds to me like Abraham was in his own place and all OT saints are in his "bosom". Hell was a different place. Abraham was not in hell.
There is only one place where Paul says "there is neither Jew nor gentile," Galatians 3:28. It would seem that he contradicts this statement in 1 Corinthians 10:32 which says "give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" - three distinct groups. The explanation is that there is neither Jew nor gentile only IN CHRIST. One is placed "in Christ" only through the baptism of the Spirit (baptism meaning "being placed into"). There is no Holy Spirit baptism before the birth of the Church in Acts 2. There is no concept of "in Christ" before the birth of the Church in Acts 2. There is no Church (meaning the body of Christ) before Acts 2. The Greek work for church is "eklesia" and its pure meaning is "a called-out body", or a group of people dedicated to a single purpose. Given eklesia's pure meaning, a group of people in a stadium watching a football game could be said to be an "eklesia" because they are all gathered together for a single purpose. The church mentioned in Matthew 18 is a group of people dedicated to following the Lord Jesus during His earthly ministry, but it is not the body of Christ.
Yes, I do indeed believe that God has two distinct groups of people. Pre Acts 2 believers are in no way inferior to post Acts 2 believers. God has a different program for each, and both fulfill God's plan of the ages for His creation. The Jews are God's chosen people that have been set aside only for a time. Jerusalem and its people have a distinct place of prominence in the Millennial Kingdom. They will rule the earth as God's earthly people. The body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ as God's heavenly people. Neither group is superior or inferior to the other, but there is a different agenda for each.
The Beginning of the Church: Its Birth and Revelation
While there is no one Bible verse that states when the church began, we can pinpoint the time of its "birth" with precision by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Let us begin by using the process of elimination.
The Church Was Not Revealed In the Old Testament
In Eph. 3:1-6, Paul states that he was given revelation of a marvelous mystery concerning the church. In vs.1-3, he was given revelation concerning a new dispensation, which he calls the dispensation of the grace of God. In vs.4, he notes that God gave him KNOWLEDGE in the mystery. Paul could never have discovered this truth on his own. (I Cor.2:7-10) God had to reveal this new truth or it could not be known. Paul was Gods chosen vessel to reveal this new truth relating to the church. In verse five he writes that these truths relating to this "mystery" (church truth) were NOT made known unto the sons of men in other ages. Paul makes it clear that there have been several "ages" dispensations in the past, though he does not name them all. In NONE of those ages was this truth made known. Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, or Jeremiah knew NOTHING about the coming of a church the Body of Christ. They ARE revealed now however, to the New Testament apostles and prophets. Those men received this truth from Paul.
Ephesians 3:6 records the central part of this mystery truth, namely, that Jews and Gentiles are now equal members of the SAME body the Body of Christ, the church. The Old Testament did reveal the fact that gentiles could come to the Light and be saved. (Isa.60:3) There is a lot of revelation in the Old Testament about Gentile participation in the Kingdom. This new revelation of the mystery is NOT additional revelation about gentile participation in the future Millennial Kingdom. This new revelation is about an entirely new & previously unrevealed plan & program of God. This new revelation has to do with a new entity which is called "one NEW Man" in Eph.2:15. It is entirely NEW. This One New Man (church consisting of both Jew & Gentile) came into being as a result of the reconciling work of the cross. Thus, this New Man could not have existed before the cross, and thus not in the Old Testament.
Throughout the Old Testament, no one knew about this glorious plan which was hidden in the mind and heart of God.
In Col. 1:26, Paul states that this new truth [called a mystery] had been HIDDEN from ages and from generations. In all those previous ages, NO ONE knew that one day God would form a new entity, a New Man, a New Race of men called new creatures IN CHRIST JESUS and in His Body, the church. This was all "hidden." It was not that this truth was revealed in the Old Testament, but that the saints back then were not discerning enough to see it or understand it. It was "hidden" in the mind of God and NOT revealed! They could not possibly have found it in the OT because it was not there! It was not only unknown, it was unknowable!
Note that it was not just hidden from the people in Old Testament times. It was hidden from the entire time period from the ages and generations. In other words, it would not be accurate to say that this truth is found in the Old Testament, but it was hidden from the understanding of OT saints. It was hidden from the entire age. Those former ages had NO such revelation!
The Church Was Not Revealed In the Gospels
In Matt.16:18, Jesus mentioned the church, but He never revealed what it was. He said, "I will build my church." Note also that in the gospels, the church is still FUTURE. (I will build ) We DO find in Matthew 13, parables of the kingdom. These parables describe the character of the age between Christs comings. This inter-advent period encompasses the time of Christs first coming until His Second Coming. The church age does fall within that time period. But so do the gospel period and the Tribulation Period. While a general description of "professing believers" and the character of the age are revealed here, there is NO truth directly relating to the establishment of or the nature of the church. It is a mystery until revealed to Paul.
Robert Newell wrote, "In His earthly ministry to Israel the Lord Jesus gave none of the great heavenly truths for the present Church dispensation. He but mentioned the Church, giving no explanation. Nor were these vital truths related to the Twelve Apostles." During the gospel period (Matthew John) the apostles knew NOTHING of an intervening program called the church the Body of Christ. At the end of the gospel period, the apostles were still anticipating the redemption of Israel and the Kingdom. (Luke 24:19-21) Throughout the gospel period, John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles spoke not a word about a church. Rather, their ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel exclusively. (Matt.10:5-7) Their message was "Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!" (Matt.10:7; 4:17; 3:1-2) Thus, we see that the church not revealed in the gospels. It was still FUTURE from the vantage point of the gospels.
The Church Could Not Begin Before the Cross. (Eph.2:13-16)
The church is called the "One New Man." (2:15) This New Man consists of Jew and Gentile "reconciled" (2:16) into ONE BODY. It was the cross that "reconciled" these two and made both one by breaking down the middle wall of partition (Mosaic Law) which formerly separated them (2:14-15). Since they were reconciled into one Body by the cross, this New Man could not exist before the cross. There was no church in the Old Testament, in the gospel period, and could not be a church before the cross.
It was not revealed in the Lords post-resurrection ministry.
Even after His resurrection, the Lord Jesus appeared to the disciples, and continued to teach them the things concerning the Kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3) He did NOT reveal to them the things concerning the church. In Acts 1:5, we learn that the apostles did not know when the baptism of the Spirit would occur. They knew that would occur soon, but this ministry of the Spirit had not yet begun. When it DID occur, Peter could only explain it in terms of the prophecies concerning the coming Kingdom (Acts 2:16-21). Peter knew only that the outpouring of the Spirit which they had just witnessed on the Day of Pentecost was like "that" described by Joel. Both were outpourings of the Holy Spirit. Peter did not say that Pentecost was a fulfillment of that prophecy or even a partial fulfillment. Rather, he said "this is that" (vs.16) same sort of thing a supernatural outpouring of the Spirit of God! The apostles were still expecting the Kingdom to begin at any time. (Acts 1:6) They had no idea that an intervening church age would occur.
It could not have begun before the ascension & glorification of Christ.
It was the risen and ascended Christ who SENT the Holy Spirit to begin His work of baptizing believers into the Body of Christ. (Acts 2:33) Paul tells us that God raised Christ from the dead and seated Him at his own right hand in the heavenly places and THEN made Him Head of the Body. (Eph. 1:20-23) Thus, the church was not formed until AFTER Christ was raised, ascended to heaven, and was seated at the right hand of the Father. If the church began before the ascension, then we have a Body without a Head!
It was the risen and ascended Christ who gave GIFTS unto men gifted men that the Body might function. (Eph. 4:8-12) The church cannot grow or function apart from its Head. (Col.2:19; Eph.4:15-16) The church could not have begun before the ascension, or it would have been a non-functioning Body! Anyone who tries to place the beginning of the church before the ascension of Christ will end up with a Body with no head and no functioning parts! Such a situation is unthinkable!
Also, this new relationship of the Spirit to believers could not begin until Christ was glorified. (John 7:39)
The church was built upon the foundation of the apostles and New Testament prophets. (Eph.2:19-22)
In context, Paul was speaking about BOTH Jew and Gentile as being reconciled in ONE New Man. (Eph. 2:13-18) Together, (Jew & Gentile) constitute the household of God in this age. (vs.19) I Tim.3:15 indicates that the household of God today is the church. Paul continues his description of the church by stating that it is a "house" or a "temple" built upon a foundation. (Eph. 2:20) The foundation consists of the New Testament apostles and prophets. Thus, the church was not built UNTIL the time of the New Testament apostles and prophets. [See also Eph.3:5. The word "now" indicates that Paul has New Testament prophets, not Old Testament prophets in mind.]
It begins by means of Spirit Baptism. (I Cor.12:13)
By means of the process of elimination, we have seen that the church could not have existed in the Old Testament, in the gospel period, before the Cross, during the post-resurrection ministry of Christ, or before the ascension and glorification of Christ as Head of the Body.
I Cor.12:13 states clearly HOW a person becomes a member of the Body of Christ, the church. That takes place by means of Spirit baptism. In this age, the Spirit of God places the believer INTO Christs Body at the moment of saving faith. There is no other way to get INTO Christ!
Yet, Spirit baptism was still future in Acts 1:5. However, by the time of Acts 11:15-16, it had already taken place. Here Peter states that the Gentiles had received the gift of the Spirit of God just as the Jewish believers in Christ had received at the beginning. The beginning obviously refers back to the beginning of the church as recorded in Acts chapter two! This was the beginning of the baptizing work of the Spirit of God.
Thus, in Acts 2:1-4, on the Day of Pentecost, we have pinpointed the exact BEGINNING of the church. It was then that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to begin His work of baptizing believing Jews & Gentiles into the Body of Christ occurred for the very first time in human history. Renald Showers wrote, "Although the church was an essential part of Gods plan for history which He determined in eternity past, God did not put that part of His plan into effect until ten days after His Son ascended from earth to heaven."
What difference does it make? Does it really matter when the church began?
The answer is YES! It matters greatly that we rightly divide the Word of truth and keep Gods plan for Israel separate and distinct from His plan for the church. There is a dangerous "blurring" of truth taking place in our generation. There seems to be a feverish attempt to blend together dispensational truth with Covenant/Reformed theology. Merging the two will result in legalistic living. Reformed Theology teaches justification by faith, but sanctification by self-discipline and law. That results in nothing but defeat and frustration for the believer! (Rom.7:14-25) If we are ever going to have right concept of what the church is & what it is not, we need to study what the Bible says about this new Man! A right understanding of the church will keep us from confusing it with earthly Israel. It will keep us away from the errors of liturgical type churches, from the errors of the Reconstructionist movement, and countless other errors! It will also keep us focused on what our function in the world ought to be: to manifest the indwelling life of Christ! Doctrine affects practice.
Upvote
0
Ebb
Well-Known Member
Is this the source of the "copy and paste" above?
http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/churchbeginning.htm
This is not the view of historical Christianity. The writer has been influenced by dispensationalist teaching.
A good response would be from Dr. Horatius Bonar, who wrote:
...Old Testament believers did not occupy a lower level than we do; nor did they walk in legal bondage because they had not yet seen the cross. They were "saints" as truly as we are (Ex. 19 :6; Lev. 11 :44, 19:2; Deut. 33 :3; Ps. 89:5-7); dwelt in, and filled with the Holy Spirit (Ex. 28:3, 31:3, 35:31; Num. 11:17, 25; 2 Sam. 23:2; Prov. 1:23; Isa. 44:3, 63:11; Micah 3:8; 2 Pet. 1:21); soils of God (Ex. 4:22, 23; Prov. 3:11; Jer. 31:9-20; Hosea 1:10; Heb. 12:5); Gods royal priesthood (Ex. 19 :6) ; Gods portion and inheritance (Deut. 32:9); heirs of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 8:11); strangers upon earth (1 Chron. 29:15; Ps. 39:12; Heb. 11:13); partakers of the first resurrection (Heb. 11:35) ; members of Christs body (Isa. 26:19); His spouse and bride (Ps. 45:10-14; Cant. 4:8; Isa. 54:5; 62:5); partakers of the heavenly calling (Heb. 11:10, 16). In short, there is nothing affirmed of New Testament saints that is not affirmed of Old Testament ones; and to say that because Israel as a nation had the earthly things, therefore the" saints in Israel had not the heavenly, is to overlook some of the clearest declarations of the Word. The mystery or secret which the apostle announces (Eph. 3:6), was not that a new thing called the church had commenced at Pentecost (there is no hint of such a thing), but that into the old and well-known body, THE CHURCH, so often spoken of in the Old Testament, and symbolized in the Song of Solomon as THE church without spot or wrinkle (Song 4:7), the Gentiles were to be introduced and set on the same level as the Old Testament members. "That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs (with the ancient saints), and of the same body" (with them), is the fair interpretation of the apostles language.
http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/bonar/bonar_01.htm
http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/churchbeginning.htm
This is not the view of historical Christianity. The writer has been influenced by dispensationalist teaching.
A good response would be from Dr. Horatius Bonar, who wrote:
...Old Testament believers did not occupy a lower level than we do; nor did they walk in legal bondage because they had not yet seen the cross. They were "saints" as truly as we are (Ex. 19 :6; Lev. 11 :44, 19:2; Deut. 33 :3; Ps. 89:5-7); dwelt in, and filled with the Holy Spirit (Ex. 28:3, 31:3, 35:31; Num. 11:17, 25; 2 Sam. 23:2; Prov. 1:23; Isa. 44:3, 63:11; Micah 3:8; 2 Pet. 1:21); soils of God (Ex. 4:22, 23; Prov. 3:11; Jer. 31:9-20; Hosea 1:10; Heb. 12:5); Gods royal priesthood (Ex. 19 :6) ; Gods portion and inheritance (Deut. 32:9); heirs of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 8:11); strangers upon earth (1 Chron. 29:15; Ps. 39:12; Heb. 11:13); partakers of the first resurrection (Heb. 11:35) ; members of Christs body (Isa. 26:19); His spouse and bride (Ps. 45:10-14; Cant. 4:8; Isa. 54:5; 62:5); partakers of the heavenly calling (Heb. 11:10, 16). In short, there is nothing affirmed of New Testament saints that is not affirmed of Old Testament ones; and to say that because Israel as a nation had the earthly things, therefore the" saints in Israel had not the heavenly, is to overlook some of the clearest declarations of the Word. The mystery or secret which the apostle announces (Eph. 3:6), was not that a new thing called the church had commenced at Pentecost (there is no hint of such a thing), but that into the old and well-known body, THE CHURCH, so often spoken of in the Old Testament, and symbolized in the Song of Solomon as THE church without spot or wrinkle (Song 4:7), the Gentiles were to be introduced and set on the same level as the Old Testament members. "That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs (with the ancient saints), and of the same body" (with them), is the fair interpretation of the apostles language.
http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/bonar/bonar_01.htm
Upvote
0
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
- Sep 22, 2004
- 570
- 30
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Thanks Ebb.
You have truly found, from the scriptures God's People.
Noone who rejects and denys Christ is 'Gods People'. That is an affront to New Testament Christianity.
Ethnic and Racial Jews have been being saved and have been coming to Christ for centuries; they are not awaiting a future 'endtime corporate' salvation moment; but they too; just like their Gentile brethren; must heed the instruction given by Isaiah, and later restated by Paul...."I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
As the NT teaches over and over and over again; God has one people. His children of Faith; not bound or differentiated based on race or ethnicity; but united in one body by the Blood of the Lamb; slain from the foundation of the world!
You have truly found, from the scriptures God's People.
Noone who rejects and denys Christ is 'Gods People'. That is an affront to New Testament Christianity.
Ethnic and Racial Jews have been being saved and have been coming to Christ for centuries; they are not awaiting a future 'endtime corporate' salvation moment; but they too; just like their Gentile brethren; must heed the instruction given by Isaiah, and later restated by Paul...."I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
As the NT teaches over and over and over again; God has one people. His children of Faith; not bound or differentiated based on race or ethnicity; but united in one body by the Blood of the Lamb; slain from the foundation of the world!
Upvote
0
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
- Sep 22, 2004
- 570
- 30
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
But that is 'wrongly dividing the Word of God' Nancy.
That is missing the point of what the New Testament teaches.
Dispensationalism is nothing more than a return to the same endtime expectations and false-hopes that the 1st centuries Pharisees believed in regards to the coming of Christ and His Kingdom; and the very false understanding that Jesus Himself corrected them on; and the writings of the New Testament affirm.
God's plan for Israel is Jesus Christ. They can have Him NOW!It is the same plan that the Gentiles now can have.
Jesus Christ is the marker that determines who God's People are; and His plan is one plan; payment for humanities sin-debt; with His People being saved by the Blood of the Lamb....regardless of their race or their birthdate!
Here is the plan Nancy; and it has been followed by thousands of Jews and Gentiles throughout human history....
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." I John 5:11
Not two groups distinquished by race or birthdate; but one group....based on faith; following the lowly carpenter from Galilee!
The New Testament could be no clearer to the faithful Berean listener....
Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Ephesians 3:21, 4:4 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "
2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ"
Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."
Hebrews 2:10, 10:10, 13 "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Upvote
0
nancy70x7
Member
It is not wrongly dividing the Word.
The Church (the Body of Christ) was a MYSTERY not revealed until Paul (Romans 16:25). OT saints could not be part of something that didn't exist during their time.
You have already decided to reject dispensationalism. You are on this thread only because you want to argue with those of us who embrace it. It is not my wish to argue with you. You anti-dispensational types beat all! Do you guys think you can dissuade us??
The Church (the Body of Christ) was a MYSTERY not revealed until Paul (Romans 16:25). OT saints could not be part of something that didn't exist during their time.
You have already decided to reject dispensationalism. You are on this thread only because you want to argue with those of us who embrace it. It is not my wish to argue with you. You anti-dispensational types beat all! Do you guys think you can dissuade us??
Upvote
0
Ebb
Well-Known Member
nancy70x7 said:
What does Romans 16:25 actually say?
Romans 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Does a mystery revealed mean that which is revealed "did not exist in the past"?
Compare with Ephesians 1:9 which speaks of "the mystery of his will".
Upvote
0
nancy70x7
Member
For those of you who really want to know...a mystery, according to Strong's Concordance, is a "secret". The Church was a secret that was not revealed to the world (kept secret since the world began) until He revealed it to the world through Paul. I think Ebb would like us to believe that God was running the Church "program" from the beginning and just not telling us about it. The apostle Paul comes along, and now after thousands of years, God decides to let us finally know what He's been doing with us all these years. Not likely, Ebb.
Upvote
0
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
- Sep 22, 2004
- 570
- 30
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Nancy wrote:
Scripture would say differently.
If you look at the context of that very passage; it makes it plain that the mystery had been revealed to the OT prophets (of faith). The mystery of salvation was hidden from the faithless; and only made known unto the faithful; which prior to Calvary; constituted only a small number of people that had ever lived.
16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith
Can you see Nancy? Paul is telling us that the mystery was now being made known to all nations; that had previously been made known by the scriptures of the prophets before. The OT writings were the only scriptures of the prophets that existed to Paul and to the Romans reading this letter. That is what Paul referred to; showing that the mystery had been made manifest to them; through the scriptures of the prophets.
Now, by faith, it was being manifest to all men as the gospel begins to grow out unto all nations.
Gee Nancy, I thought this was a Bible Discussion Board.
I thought that it had a special dedicated forum for discussion the topic of Dispensationalism.
I didn't read that it was a closed forum; which only allowed views from the pro-Dispensational viewpoint to be posted and discussed.
The description under the Dispensational Section of the forum states:
"A new forum for the discussion of dispensationalist theology."
Isn't that what we are doing?
It doesn't state:
"A new forum solely for the advancment and promotion of dispensationalist theology."
I simply don't see where me wanting to discuss it; is out of order here.
I can't speak for anyone but myself Nancy; but I can say, that after being taught dispensationalism and that being the only view I knew for over 20 years; that someone shared important scriptures with me that helped me be dissuaded...and I know of dozens of other folks who have had similar experiences where fellow Christians who love the Bible and love their neighbor have taken the time to question dispensationalism and to help them too; see its error. Not out of malice or pride or hatefulness; but simply our of love and wanting to be as faithful as possible to the true intent and meaning of the scriptures.
I may not dissuade you one bit; however, sharing the scriptures and showing scriptures that either refute or dilute the dispensational viewpoint shouldn't be received hostily; but sincerely.
For folks who have made there mind up and don't want to change; and wouldn't consider evaluating or changing their framework; then no change will occur. But there are alot of folks out there who are questioning dispensationalism; who wonder what its tennants are and where it came from and why people believe it; and what the scriptures have to say about it. That is why there is a discussion forum dedicated to it; so searching people can learn about; from both sides of the interprative fence; and hopefully can base their decisions on the scriptures given.
Scripture would say differently.
If you look at the context of that very passage; it makes it plain that the mystery had been revealed to the OT prophets (of faith). The mystery of salvation was hidden from the faithless; and only made known unto the faithful; which prior to Calvary; constituted only a small number of people that had ever lived.
16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith
Can you see Nancy? Paul is telling us that the mystery was now being made known to all nations; that had previously been made known by the scriptures of the prophets before. The OT writings were the only scriptures of the prophets that existed to Paul and to the Romans reading this letter. That is what Paul referred to; showing that the mystery had been made manifest to them; through the scriptures of the prophets.
Now, by faith, it was being manifest to all men as the gospel begins to grow out unto all nations.
Gee Nancy, I thought this was a Bible Discussion Board.
I thought that it had a special dedicated forum for discussion the topic of Dispensationalism.
I didn't read that it was a closed forum; which only allowed views from the pro-Dispensational viewpoint to be posted and discussed.
The description under the Dispensational Section of the forum states:
"A new forum for the discussion of dispensationalist theology."
Isn't that what we are doing?
It doesn't state:
"A new forum solely for the advancment and promotion of dispensationalist theology."
I simply don't see where me wanting to discuss it; is out of order here.
I can't speak for anyone but myself Nancy; but I can say, that after being taught dispensationalism and that being the only view I knew for over 20 years; that someone shared important scriptures with me that helped me be dissuaded...and I know of dozens of other folks who have had similar experiences where fellow Christians who love the Bible and love their neighbor have taken the time to question dispensationalism and to help them too; see its error. Not out of malice or pride or hatefulness; but simply our of love and wanting to be as faithful as possible to the true intent and meaning of the scriptures.
I may not dissuade you one bit; however, sharing the scriptures and showing scriptures that either refute or dilute the dispensational viewpoint shouldn't be received hostily; but sincerely.
For folks who have made there mind up and don't want to change; and wouldn't consider evaluating or changing their framework; then no change will occur. But there are alot of folks out there who are questioning dispensationalism; who wonder what its tennants are and where it came from and why people believe it; and what the scriptures have to say about it. That is why there is a discussion forum dedicated to it; so searching people can learn about; from both sides of the interprative fence; and hopefully can base their decisions on the scriptures given.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
