Ultimate argument to Atheist?

[GodsNet]

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quatona

You can not separate your belief from your destiny.
I´m not sure I understand what you are saying here. Initially you were speaking of goals, now you are replacing this term by "destiny". Is there a reason for that change of terminology?


If you live in SF you can ask a 50-year-old homeless: To live in the street was your goal as a kid? He will tell you: No, my goal was to have a better life but I don’t make the right decisions and take the right goals. (And maybe ask you for a coin)
The same way being an atheist if you goal is not to have a goal, that is your goal and your destiny comes together.
quatona
Yes, holding an opinion about the existence/nonexistence of something implies a goal.
Maybe for you, but not for me.
But I would be glad if you’d define my goals for me.
You may want to give me an example: I don’t believe in aliens. Which goal does that imply, in your opinion?
Your goal is to believe in what you can touch, not in what you can calculate is real.

quatona
If you hold an opinion about anything that means that you are a thinking being,
Agreed. agree
and your destiny is permeated for your beliefs.
The operational term was "goal", not "destiny". There is not much point in changing the horses midstream.


The operational term goal switches to destiny because I try to understand what do you want to do with the universe?


Then time after time they say “to control the universe is impossible”, or
quatona
I don’t want to do anything with the universe. I think the universe just does fine without me having goals for it.


Not even bacteria have such lack of interest in doing something with the universe. That is why the “atheism is the evolution mistake”.
Ergo if they do not want to make a goal, destiny is the only thing left.


quatona
Denying God and following the evolution laws to find a civilization goal you will get to a conclusion analogous to God.
"Following evolution laws"??? What´s that supposed to mean? It seems like you are confusing prescriptive and descriptive laws.

If you are confused let me help you

EVOLUTION
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Better Form means that nature wants life to be healthier and last longer. How long does nature want life to live? ETERNALY

Do you understand now the evolution’s law?


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smloeffelholz
I understand that we are probably working with a language barrier here, and I am trying to understand you as best I can. Still, after reading your OP, I was a bit confused. After reading your first response, I was very confused. Now that I have read your third response, I am completely lost.

You need to state your questions and assumptions plainly. It seems that you are making a lot of assumptions about atheists that are not true. Further, it seems that the questions that you are asking are not conducive to the answers that you are looking for.


Thanks smloeffelholz for your post. Beg your pardon for my language.

However, you notice some assumptions about atheist that are not true. Which are these assumptions?

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Ayersy

I'm a model number 2? Does that mean I'm the new, super-cool, streamlined, flashy new atheist model, complete with central locking, ABS, electric seats and a CD player?!


That means that you are an honest man, Congratulations!


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ragarth

"Which are the OTHER PEOPLE’s DESIRES? So we can evaluate those desires."

I ) I want to get my PhD and develop human-level AI.
II) My mom wants to set up a stable life for her kids so they get all the benefits they can give them.
III) My friend wants to setup a business and make sure his child grows up to be happy and healthy.
IV) Obama wants shape this country in a way he feels will best benefit everyone.
V) A drug addict wants to get his next fix, a hippy wants world peace.
VI) A soldier wants to live while another wants to reach an objective at any cost.
VII) A Muslim wants to establish sharia law worldwide.
VIII) A Christian wants to bring forth the apocolypse.
IX) Countless desires, more than I could list in a single post.

By asking for a listing of these desires you are simply establishing a red herring, it has no bearing upon the argument at hand. People are people, and unless your saying that a borg-like collective is the way of the future, the fact that people all have differing desires is something that must be taken into account. If we accept people having differing desires, then you either give people the freedom to pursue those desires, or you go the way of tyranny and attempt to dictate their desires. Me, as an atheist, made a statement that I believe people should be free to pursue their desires. Is there something wrong with that? Do you feel that an entire galactic civilization should be ruled with an iron fist and all its people forced to work towards a single goal regardless of their desires?

If the desire of the people helps the people around them, they are free to pursue their desires.

If the desire of the people hurts the people around them, then the iron fist will be useful.

However those desires are particular and good for them. If you want to evaluate them in the Transcendence, you must calculate using the evolution law of how much time this desire will help life last?


The universe is 13,500,000,000 years old and it is calculated (by MICHAEL D. LEMONICK) that it will last 100,000,000,000,000 years more, that will give us a great total of 100,013,500,000,000 years of the universe.

Just think in the goals that you mention calculate how many years this goal will help life to last?

Get the number and divide it by the years of the universe, and you will get how important is this goal.

Examples

“A drug addict wants to get his next fix” help him last one more day equal .003 years
Divide it by the years of the universe

(0.003 y ) / (100,013,500,000,000 years of the universe) = Zero


“I want to get my PhD and develop human-level AI” will help the humanity live 1 million years more.

Divide it by the years of the universe

(1,000,000) / (100,013,500,000,000 years of the universe) = Zero



Therefore you must look for goal that will give you some good value, this good value it is ∞.

(X) / (years of the universe) = ∞



the only value for “X” to make life eternally is ∞, Therefore, God is the only available goal of evolution to be eternal.

 

[GodsNet]

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Eudaimonist
Originally Posted by GodsNet
Which will be a grandiose goal for the entire species?


None. I don't believe in "species goals". There is something oddly collectivist about that. I believe that individuals ought to live their own lives and flourish as the unique persons they are. Some people might be interested in living forever, and some might not be. Some might be interested in supporting research into life extension, and some might not be. Individuals should think carefully about what they value in life and choose that.

That is truth my friend Eudaimonist, it is your choice to live or to die, and nature gives you the freedom to choose.


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lovinjesus808
Junior Member


This thread makes no sense. The incoherence of the OP is not helping.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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Muad Dib

Originally Posted by GodsNet
give us your logical civilization goal, please.


For now (the next 100 years) I would like to see a goal of providing enough food, water, medicine, education, a home, electricity for every human being, along with establishing renewable energy sources, fusion power, and a permanent foothold in space.


Great, just make that goal larger that 100 years, maybe eternity.


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plindboe

Originally Posted by GodsNet
The next post I put it in the Atheist forum of Sam Harris "The Reason Project" and it was erased 10 minute later.
That's a shame. I prefer places where everyone are allowed to make their case, no matter how nonsensical their arguments are.

I agree, however they erase it twice.



plindboe
Originally Posted by GodsNet
Do you think this will help to fight atheism?
No. On the contrary it can only help atheism. When you argue a case so poorly, you'll make your own side look irrational, which will end up driving people away.

You probable right, that is up to how well I explain my self.



plindboe
Originally Posted by GodsNet
__________________________________
Atheism: “The evolution’s mistake”.


Strange title.


Is not so strange, involve all in one.



plindboe
Originally Posted by GodsNet
Ok my atheist friends, think that you guys reach your goal: 7,000,000,000 person of the world are clean, God free, only secular values. What is the next steep?]
That's not my goal.

That is the “Reason Project” goal.





plindboe
Originally Posted by GodsNet
1) There will be a scientist that will say: “I going to do a time machine to travel from the beginning of time to the end of times”. What do you going to tell him?

a) We support you, just ask us for help and we will help you.
b) Say to him: that is impossible.]
Neither. I'll say:

c) Sounds like you've seen too many Hollywood movies, but good luck.

8,000 years ago the civilization has the same goals, and no movies then.


plindboe
Originally Posted by GodsNet
2) There will be a scientist that will say: “I going to work in finding the theory of everything so we can control the universe”. What you will tell him?

a) We support you, we will help you.
b) That impossible the universe is to large]
Neither. I'll say:

c) Finding a theory of everything doesn't mean we can control everything. I can't believe a scientist would say something that illogical.


Believe it my friend, look Michio Kaku at Youtube : about future civilization



plindboe
Originally Posted by GodsNet
3) There will be a scientist that will say: “I will use the time machine and the control of the universe to resurrect every single person, and create a city with gold’s walls for them”. What do you going to tell him?

a) Great! We will make that our civilization goal.
b) That’s against nature; we should live maximum 100 years and then die.]
Neither. I'll say:

c) Take your medication.

Originally Posted by GodsNet
PLEASE have the courage to answer my doubts.
Nothing to do with courage, considering that your questions are neither deep nor difficult to answer.


“Take your medication” evades your position in the question, no too much courage.



999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
LifeToTheFullest!
Intelligence Allowed

Maybe you were high when you wrote this, and it made sense then. I think you should read what you wrote again.


I was not in drugs at that time.


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Yours truly,
GN




There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death

 

[Jedah]

From what I see it seems that the OP of this thread has an extremely warped understanding behind what causes atheism and it's relation to science if any. He has gone on to create this thread which uses reasoning based on his erroneous ideas without first stating what those ideas are, which explains why he is making absolutely no sense.

Problem is, that is a total and complete failure to understand non belief on the most basic of basic levels. Non belief is about accepting "I don't know" as an answer for things which we have no evidence for instead of filling gaps with superstitions.

Questioning how atheism "lines up with nature" is pointless. It doesn't try to, so any point you make is moot. It's akin to asking how twinkies and Underpants Gnomes coexist. Nonsense.

 

[ragarth]

You make no sense, your argument follow no path of logic, period. Your leaps of assumption are unstated and apparently so unfathomably large so as to not be mere 'leaps' but rather grand voyages involving a great panoply of vessels equal to the spanish fleet squared. Your argument this whole time has been "Here's some irrelevant questions. LOOK COW!"

Regardless of how you think people should measure the value of their goals, people don't necessarily measure them the same way you do, and this seems to be a concept you are unwilling to grasp.

Regardless, this conversation is rapidly becoming pointless. You've now repeated your thought twice in different phrasings. You have, in effect, entrenched yourself in this fallacious belief that since people don't think like you, they must be wrong.

I'm bailing, there's nothing to learn here.

/thread

 

[Tenka]

EVOLUTION
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Better Form means that nature wants life to be healthier and last longer. How long does nature want life to live? ETERNALY

Do you understand now the evolution’s law?

This isn't a law, it's just something you made up.

 

[lovinjesus808]

What is this thread about? Nothing here makes sense.
"Atheism: The Evolution's Mistake" is a hilarious title.

 

[Wedjat]

I don't know what I understand less, the op, or the fact that people are actually bothering to try and reason with him.

 

[Infernalfist]

that is the moral dilemma that i face every time i return to this site. why do i attempt to reason with people who's faith and believe is based on a lack of reason. I have found that, personally, it depends on my mood. At times it is out of my own morbid curiosity, others it is an attempt to gain any reason other than my own, and other times it is with the same zeal that religious enthusiasts carry when they are trying to convert people like myself.

 

[DayusXMakina]

What in the ..What?

Probably because it makes no sense whatsoever.

That, or they thought maybe it'd be some sorta troll? Not saying OP is troll, mind you, but what they might have thought in response to this post of the OP's. If I were an Atheist, mind, ATHEIST mod on an ATHEIST forum, I think I could see myself nippin a potential flame war in the bud.

 

[plindboe]

I agree, however they erase it twice.

Ah, well, all forums have their own rules. If they delete your posts, then find somewhere else.

You probable right, that is up to how well I explain my self.

Since no one can make sense of what you're trying to say, obviously you're not doing a good job. That you don't use the quote function just muddles everything up even more. It's a pain to quote the big messy posts you make.

Is not so strange, involve all in one.

Is english your second language? The title doesn't make sense, and your "explanation" doesn't make sense either.

That is the “Reason Project” goal.

Doesn't make it my goal.

8,000 years ago the civilization has the same goals, and no movies then.

I doubt that's true. That said, my point was that it was unrealistic, to which I said "good luck", in other words I have no problems with such unrealistic aspirations. Of course if they were realistic it would be another matter, as travelling back in time is bound to change the now.

Believe it my friend, look Michio Kaku at Youtube : about future civilization

If Michio Kaku says that a theory of everything means we can control everything, he's wrong. Just like the theory of gravity doesn't give us control over all matter in the universe. Scientific theories doesn't provide us with supernatural powers.

“Take your medication” evades your position in the question, no too much courage.

Not an evasion, just a silly answer to a silly question. To give a serious answer to your third question, I would be against it, as one person setting himself up as a dictator of his own city can't be good.

Peter

 

[GodsNet]

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Jedah
From what I see it seems that the OP of this thread has an extremely warped understanding behind what causes atheism and it's relation to science if any.
He has gone on to create this thread which uses reasoning based on his erroneous ideas without first stating what those ideas are, which explains why he is making absolutely no sense.
Problem is, that is a total and complete failure to understand non belief on the most basic of basic levels. Non belief is about accepting "I don't know" as an answer for things which we have no evidence for instead of filling gaps with superstitions.
Questioning how atheism "lines up with nature" is pointless. It doesn't try to, so any point you make is moot. It's akin to asking how twinkies and Underpants Gnomes coexist. Nonsense.

Extremely warped, erroneous, not stating what those ideas are, pointless


Baby steps Jedeh
Does evolution have a goal?
Which is the evolution goal?
Does atheist believe in that goal?


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ragarth
You make no sense, your argument follow no path of logic, period. Your leaps of assumption are unstated and apparently so unfathomably large so as to not be mere 'leaps' but rather grand voyages involving a great panoply of vessels equal to the spanish fleet squared. Your argument this whole time has been "Here's some irrelevant questions. LOOK COW!"
Regardless of how you think people should measure the value of their goals, people don't necessarily measure them the same way you do, and this seems to be a concept you are unwilling to grasp.
Regardless, this conversation is rapidly becoming pointless. You've now repeated your thought twice in different phrasings. You have, in effect, entrenched yourself in this fallacious belief that since people don't think like you, they must be wrong.
I'm bailing, there's nothing to learn here.
People don't necessarily measure them the same way you do,and this seems to be a concept you are unwilling to grasp.
You cannot provide a better measure way than the one I say, and you grasp it. That is way you run, thank you for your time, I hope this help you to reevaluate your beliefs.

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Tenka
EVOLUTION
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.
Better Form means that nature wants life to be healthier and last longer. How long does nature want life to live? ETERNALY

Do you understand now the evolution’s law?
This isn't a law, it's just something you made up.

Yes it is,
Looks like Atheist cannot see it.
I give you guys the other choice: How long does nature want life to live? 100 years
And atheist cannot take sides, what is wrong with the atheist? Do they become fanatics that cannot think?

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lovinjesus808
What is this thread about? Nothing here makes sense.
"Atheism: The Evolution's Mistake" is a hilarious title.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I am the way, the truth, and the life.
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Wedjat
I don't know what I understand less, the op, or the fact that people are actually bothering to try and reason with him.
You understand the OP, however, you do not understand why people try to defend the death oriented philosophy of Atheism.
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Infernalfist
That is the moral dilemma that i face every time i return to this site. why do i attempt to reason with people who's faith and believe is based on a lack of reason. I have found that, personally, it depends on my mood. At times it is out of my own morbid curiosity, others it is an attempt to gain any reason other than my own, and other times it is with the same zeal that religious enthusiasts carry when they are trying to convert people like myself.
I explain you the universe, something an advocate of unrestricted thought will really appreciate.

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DayusXMakina
Originally Posted by Tenka
What in the ..What?
Probably because it makes no sense whatsoever.
That, or they thought maybe it'd be some sorta troll? Not saying OP is troll, mind you, but what they might have thought in response to this post of the OP's. If I were an Atheist, mind, ATHEIST mod on an ATHEIST forum, I think I could see myself nippin a potential flame war in the bud.

Or they fear the truth.

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plindboe


Originally Posted by GodsNet
I agree, however they erase it twice.
Ah, well, all forums have their own rules. If they delete your posts, then find somewhere else.

Ok
Originally Posted by GodsNet
You probable right, that is up to how well I explain my self.
Since no one can make sense of what you're trying to say, obviously you're not doing a good job. That you don't use the quote function just muddles everything up even more. It's a pain to quote the big messy posts you make.

I use colors, no good?


Originally Posted by GodsNet
Is not so strange, involve all in one.
Is english your second language? The title doesn't make sense, and your "explanation" doesn't make sense either.
Evolution wants life to live ß-à Atheist just believe in death
This helps you?


Originally Posted by GodsNet
That is the “Reason Project” goal.
Doesn't make it my goal.

To convert every people in atheist is not your goal.
Arguing in this forum you want to :_____________

Originally Posted by GodsNet
8,000 years ago the civilization has the same goals, and no movies then.
I doubt that's true. That said, my point was that it was unrealistic, to which I said "good luck", in other words I have no problems with such unrealistic aspirations. Of course if they were realistic it would be another matter, as travelling back in time is bound to change the now.

If you deny that the bible was written 4000 years Before Christ, you need a little more culture.

Originally Posted by GodsNet
Believe it my friend, look Michio Kaku at Youtube : about future civilization
If Michio Kaku says that a theory of everything means we can control everything, he's wrong. Just like the theory of gravity doesn't give us control over all matter in the universe. Scientific theories doesn't provide us with supernatural powers.

If you say that Michiu Kaku is wrong, and you are right; that is ok, is up to the readers of this forum to evaluate.


Originally Posted by GodsNet
“Take your medication” evades your position in the question, no too much courage.
Not an evasion, just a silly answer to a silly question. To give a serious answer to your third question, I would be against it, as one person setting himself up as a dictator of his own city can't be good.
That is atheism = against life.

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Regards GN
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death

 

[LightHorseman]

The next post I put it in the Atheist forum of Sam Harris "The Reason Project" and it was erased 10 minute later.

Do you think this will help to fight atheism?

__________________________________
Atheism: “The evolution’s mistake”.


Ok my atheist friends, think that you guys reach your goal: 7,000,000,000 person of the world are clean, God free, only secular values. What is the next steep?

1) There will be a scientist that will say: “I going to do a time machine to travel from the beginning of time to the end of times”. What do you going to tell him?

a) We support you, just ask us for help and we will help you.
b) Say to him: that is impossible.

2) There will be a scientist that will say: “I going to work in finding the theory of everything so we can control the universe”. What you will tell him?

a) We support you, we will help you.
b) That impossible the universe is to large

3) There will be a scientist that will say: “I will use the time machine and the control of the universe to resurrect every single person, and create a city with gold’s walls for them”. What do you going to tell him?

a) Great! We will make that our civilization goal.
b) That’s against nature; we should live maximum 100 years and then die.


############################.



PLEASE have the courage to answer my doubts.

Yeah. Check MATE you silly athiests!

 

[LightHorseman]

Baby steps Jedeh
Does evolution have a goal?
Which is the evolution goal?
Does atheist believe in that goal?

Evolution has no goal.

 

[plindboe]

Evolution wants life to live

Evolution requires life, yes, as it's an attribute of life. It doesn't "want", as it's not a conscious process. It's merely a consequence of mutation, vertical descent, drift and differential reproduction.

Atheist just believe in death

What a strange thing to say.

This helps you?

No. Your title, doesn't make sense and none of your explanations make any sense. Evolution isn't a conscious process, it makes no sense to say is makes mistakes, it makes no sense to say that atheism is a mistake of evolution and your statement that atheists just believe in death is unsupported and nonsensical.

To convert every people in atheist is not your goal.
Arguing in this forum you want to :_____________

Increase mutual understanding.
Provide a much needed opposition to dogmatism.
Hopefully debunk some prejudices concerning atheism.
Inspire critical thinking.

If you deny that the bible was written 4000 years Before Christ, you need a little more culture.

Why on earth would you believe the Bible was written that long ago? I've never heard any Bible scholar believing such a ridiculous thing.

If you say that Michiu Kaku is wrong, and you are right; that is ok, is up to the readers of this forum to evaluate.]

I think it's far more likely that you're misrepresenting what Michiu Kaku is saying.

That is atheism = against life.

Huh? Atheism isn't against life, and even if it was I don't see the point you're trying to make.

Peter

 

[Eudaimonist]

Evolution wants life to live

Evolution "wants" life to die, apparently, or else living beings would never grow old, and offspring would be rare or nonexistent.

Ask the Mayfly how long evolution "wants" it to live for.

Atheist just believe in death

Personally, I believe in life before death. The quantity of life does not matter nearly as much as its quality, and your quality in living it.


eudaimonia,

Mark