Ukraine to prepare law banning churches 'affiliated' with Russia

[JimR-OCDS]

"A July survey by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology of found that only 4% of Ukrainians affiliated themselves with the Moscow-subordinated church."

Ukraine to prepare law banning churches 'affiliated' with Russia

The Ukrainian government will draw up a law banning churches affiliated with Russia under moves described by President Volodymyr Zelenskiy as necessary to prevent Moscow being able to "weaken Ukraine from within."

www.reuters.com

Zelensky also banned opposition news outlets which oppose the war.

So much for democracy in Ukraine.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It is rather ironic that we told the side of freedom is Zelensky yet an actual political opposition is disallowed. Even if you are for Ukraine and want to bring them into Western 'democracy', you have to admit this betrays the very ideals on which you base support for Ukraine in this conflict. Granting an exception to Ukraine when you wouldn't do so for Russia and it's targeting of the Jehovah's Witnesses only exposes a double standard.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It is rather ironic that we told the side of freedom is Zelensky yet an actual political opposition is disallowed. Even if you are for Ukraine and bring them into Western 'democracy', you have to admit this betrays the very ideals on which you base support for this conflict. Granting an exception to Ukraine when you wouldn't do so for Russia and it's targeting of the Jehovah's Witnesses only exposes a double standard.

I'm not sure I understand your post.

Who is "you," you're referring to?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm not sure I understand your post.

Who is "you," you're referring

Those who support Ukraine in this conflict.

 

[Homeowner]

"A July survey by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology of found that only 4% of Ukrainians affiliated themselves with the Moscow-subordinated church."

Zelensky also banned opposition news outlets which oppose the war.

So much for democracy in Ukraine.

Inter arma silent leges​

Well Russian Orthodox church led by archbishop Kirill has shown itself to be totally subservient to Putin so it why should it allowed to continue have any influence in Ukraine ?

Russian Patriarch Kirill claims 'dying in Ukraine washes away sins'

"He sacrifices himself for others. And therefore we believe that this sacrifice washes away all the sins that a person has committed," Patriarch Kirill said.

www.republicworld.com

How close is that to just saying kill Ukrainians to secure your place in heaven ? It does not spell it out, but yeah what is Russian soldier in Ukraine doing that is going to get him killed ? Fighting Ukrainians and this washes away all sins when you kill a fellow Christian. Despicable and craven.

Is that really an Orthodox teaching ? Don't really think so.

If Russian Orthodox church wants to do geopolitics then it seems fair they get to handle consequences of that as well. Mosques in the West get shut down when they spout about killing infidels and this is not really any different.

Ukraine is under martial law so these temporary restrictions like banning opposition news outlets are legal. These started around March so nothing new here. Wiki.

"On 20 March, President Zelenskyy signed a decree that merged all national television channels into one platform due to martial law.[27][28] That same day, he signed a decree suspending the activities of eleven opposition political parties, citing claimed ties to the Russian government, throughout the duration of martial law; the parties included the pro-Russian Opposition Platform — For Life, the second-largest party in the Verkhovna Rada.[29][30] On 22 May the Ukrainian parliament extended martial law for another 90 days, or until 20 August.[31] On 16 August, martial law was again extended until 21 November.[32]"

 

[Homeowner]

It is rather ironic that we told the side of freedom is Zelensky yet an actual political opposition is disallowed. Even if you are for Ukraine and want to bring them into Western 'democracy', you have to admit this betrays the very ideals on which you base support for Ukraine in this conflict. Granting an exception to Ukraine when you wouldn't do so for Russia and it's targeting of the Jehovah's Witnesses only exposes a double standard.

Martial law during a war is hardly betraying any ideals any more than army not being a democracy betrays ideals of democracy.

Only double standards here are in some poster's imagination.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Martial law during a war is hardly betraying any ideals any more than army not being a democracy betrays ideals of democracy.

Only double standards here are in some poster's imagination.

So in order to save democracy and religious freedom you have to outlaw your political opposition and religious opposition?

 

[Homeowner]

So in order to save democracy and religious freedom you have to outlaw your political opposition and religious opposition?

Yep, probably every sovereign state has a martial law for when things are unable to function in normal ways.

Martial law is the imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions or suspension of civil law by a government, especially in response to an emergency where civil forces are overwhelmed, or in an occupied territory.[1][2]

Is this a hard concept to grasp ?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yep, probably every sovereign state has a martial law for when things are unable to function in normal ways.

Martial law is the imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions or suspension of civil law by a government, especially in response to an emergency where civil forces are overwhelmed, or in an occupied territory.[1][2]

Is this a hard concept to grasp ?

No it's not a hard concept to grasp, that in certain times we craft political exceptions for those we favour and those who are our enemies we target punitively. But that is more Schmittian politics than the democratic ideal, which if you are going to outlaw your opposition, you betray the basis on which you claim legitimacy and cannot seriously claim to represent such an ideal authentically.

You might be willing to say the Ukraine is justified, but all that means is that you are willing to betray your liberal/democratic ideals in the service of your friends.

 

[Homeowner]

No it's not a hard concept to grasp, that in certain times we craft political exceptions for those we favour and those who are our enemies we target punitively. But that is more Schmittian politics than the democratic ideal, which if you are going to outlaw your opposition, you betray and cannot claim to seriously represent.

You still seem to have bit difficulty of understanding that country with army rated 25th getting invaded by army ranked 2nd (2021) by a surprise attack has little choice to continue operating as if it was peace time and observe all democratic procedures and ideals.

Or you grasp it and just choose to ignore it to present some ideal moral high ground that is bit easier to maintain from New Zealand then from Kiev.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You still seem to have bit difficulty of understanding that country with army rated 25th getting invaded by army ranked 2nd (2021) by a surprise attack has little choice to continue operating as if it was peace time and observe all democratic procedures and ideals.

Or you grasp it and just choose to ignore it to present some ideal moral high ground that is bit easier to maintain from New Zealand then from Kiev.

? I'm not condemning the Ukraine for being anti-Democratic and restrictive of religious expression. (I am not a democrat or a liberal). Only pointing it out. Yes warfare involves serious limitations on one's expression and the democratic ideal. Naturally opposition cannot be tolerated. Though if this is true of the Ukraine it is also true of Russia which also engages in repression of political/religious opposition.

Besides it's not as if Ukraine was exactly free and open before hand. It had already outlawed Russian Radio and TV Stations. I also think that any such Russophile movement will not be allowed to operate even after the war.

 

[Homeowner]

Besides it's not as if Ukraine was exactly free and open before hand. It had already outlawed Russian Radio and TV Stations. I also think that any such Russophile movement will not be allowed to operate even after the war.

Before hand ?

I really doubt Ukraine had banned Russian radio and TV stations before Russia invaded Crimea and started the insurrection in Donbas.

And yeah RT is probably not going to get broadcast rights any time soon unless Russia wins.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Before hand ?

I really doubt Ukraine had banned Russian radio and TV stations before Russia invaded Crimea and started the insurrection in Donbas.

And yeah RT is probably not going to get broadcast rights any time soon unless Russia wins.

Ukraine bans pro-Russian TV stations – DW – 02/03/2021

Ukraine's pro-Western president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters had their licences revoked and are set to stay off the air for the next five years.

www.dw.com

You mention RT which is an interesting case. No they probably won't be allowed to operate in Ukraine unless they are forced to do so by Russia in a total capitulation, but that more speaks about the reality of Ukraine. That it is not interested in allowing for democratic representation/freedom of everyone in the country but in advancing a Ukrainian/pro-western narrative line to the population.

It goes against the liberal Ideal of allowing all voices to be heard and see which one wins out in the end. It's more evidence of elite theory in action, that the populations can be controlled from the top rather than the bottom having any real influence/say.

 

[Blade]

Yeah you can leave out right left media and search on this and.. its shocking how most of the media are not talking reporting on this at all. This is not a right talking point. Out side the USA they are taking about it. But here in the US if the left say its nothing not real then it must be true. You know like that lap top.

 

[Homeowner]

Yeah you can leave out right left media and search on this and.. its shocking how most of the media are not talking reporting on this at all. This is not a right talking point. Out side the USA they are taking about it. But here in the US if the left say its nothing not real then it must be true. You know like that lap top.

Civil liberties getting restricted due to martial law when being invaded by Russian federation since nine months ago ?

Russian Orthodox church backing Russian invasion of Ukraine being restricted along with it ?

How is this in any way unexpected ? Interesting to majority of US citizens compared to battle footage around Bakhmut or well mostly anything international apart from their main worries of gas price and inflation ?

Where is the news value ?

 

[Homeowner]

Ukraine bans pro-Russian TV stations – DW – 02/03/2021

Ukraine's pro-Western president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has signed decrees banning pro-Russian media outlets. The broadcasters had their licences revoked and are set to stay off the air for the next five years.

www.dw.com

You mention RT which is an interesting case. No they probably won't be allowed to operate in Ukraine unless they are forced to do so by Russia in a total capitulation, but that more speaks about the reality of Ukraine. That it is not interested in allowing for democratic representation/freedom of everyone in the country but in advancing a Ukrainian/pro-western narrative line to the population.

It goes against the liberal Ideal of allowing all voices to be heard and see which one wins out in the end. It's more evidence of elite theory in action, that the populations can be controlled from the top rather than the bottom having any real influence/say.

Those bans were 2021. So seven years after Russia attacked Ukraine in Crimea and seven years after the insurrection Russia started and supported was ongoing. As I mentioned before. Not sure why you felt you had to reinforce the point but sure let's do it.

Pretty amazing they allowed those propaganda channels be open for that long. Guess they wanted to follow those liberal ideas.

I would think that in this mythical liberal ideal all voices being heard meant that everyone was equally informed and educated for it to perform as intended.

Bit like fishermen voting on Brexit. Zero clue and now they are regretting it. All those voices heard that decided they did not need their biggest market because from somewhere would become even a bigger market. Like somehow Asia would just magically swap places with Europe.

This when your business is something as perishable as fish. Sheer lunacy.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Those bans were 2021. So seven years after Russia attacked Ukraine in Crimea and seven years after the insurrection Russia started and supported was ongoing. As I mentioned before. Not sure why you felt you had to reinforce the point but sure let's do it.

Pretty amazing they allowed those propaganda channels be open for that long. Guess they wanted to follow those liberal ideas.

I would think that in this mythical liberal ideal all voices being heard meant that everyone was equally informed and educated for it to perform as intended.

Bit like fishermen voting on Brexit. Zero clue and now they are regretting it. All those voices heard that decided they did not need their biggest market because from somewhere would become even a bigger market. Like somehow Asia would just magically swap places with Europe.

This when your business is something as perishable as fish. Sheer lunacy.

You're the one who questioned the notion of Ukraine banning Russian media before the invasion. Now you seek to justify it on another pretense and grant the Ukraine an exception for violating liberal Democratic values.

But so long as we both agree that the Ukraine is not a liberal Democratic state and that it's not fighting for those values, then we agree. You either have and stick to certain ideals or you don't. A pacifist who engages in violence isn't a pacifist.

 

[Homeowner]

You're the one who questioned the notion of Ukraine banning Russian media before the invasion.

Yes and Ukraine was invaded 2014. Ban was from 2021. You have a point here ? It must be very subtle or it does not exist.

But so long as we both agree that the Ukraine is not a liberal Democratic state and that it's not fighting for those values, then we agree. You either have and stick to certain ideals or you don't. A pacifist who engages in violence isn't a pacifist.

Nations do not fight for values. People in those nations fight for values that undoubtedly differ from person to person.

Liberal democracy.

Well Ukraine is a democracy. Guess we can agree on that.

Liberal, first definition on google : Favoring reform, open to new ideas, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; not bound by traditional thinking; broad-minded. synonym: broad-minded.

That sounds a awfully subjective statement. Certainly we can say Ukraine is liberal compared to Russia. Others ? Your mileage may wary.

Sticking for certain ideals. No nation sticks for "certain" ideals. Few individuals can manage that let alone a state. Nations with ideal of freedom will still lock up criminals.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yes and Ukraine was invaded 2014. Ban was from 2021. You have a point here ? It must be very subtle or it does not exist.

Alright and you're actually not denying the point I am making that the Ukraine is not a liberal nation fighting for certain values. Glad we agree.

Nations do not fight for values. People in those nations fight for values that undoubtedly differ from person to person.

All Nations claim to fight for values. Many US politicians and EU politicians have said that this fight represents a fight for a freedom. It doesn't if this is what the Ukraine does to political/religious opposition within the country. I actually don't have a problem with an authoritarian regime in of itself, but I imagine you being a leftist do. We also see a curious silence by this politicians for the actions Ukraine does which are bad or we see people like yourself making pathetic excuses.

Either Ukraine represents certain liberal democratic values or it doesn't. Crafting an exception every time just weakens whatever it is you are trying to say.

Liberal democracy.

Well Ukraine is a democracy. Guess we can agree on that.

No it's not. Since it has outlawed opposition.

Liberal, first definition on google : Favoring reform, open to new ideas, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; not bound by traditional thinking; broad-minded. synonym: broad-minded.

Liberal government is the idea that all parties get a say in government and power. The moment you outlaw opposition you have betrayed the classical ideal of liberal democracy. You seem to be thinking about liberalism from an exclusively leftist viewpoint in which certain values will be advocated.

That sounds a awfully subjective statement. Certainly we can say Ukraine is liberal compared to Russia. Others ? Your mileage may wary.

No, we can't. Ukraine is willing to crack down on political opposition and religious movements which it sees as a threat just as Russia is. You approve of the Ukraine doing this and support them as a liberal, yet when Russia does it it's bad. You aren't operating on principle here, you're operating on a friend vs enemy distinction.

Sticking for certain ideals. No nation sticks for "certain" ideals. Few individuals can manage that let alone a state. Nations with ideal of freedom will still lock up criminals.

I agree ultimately that no nation lives up to it's ideals. That was never my point. My point is this conflict is not a conflict based on supposed liberal democratic values. It's not a conflict over freedom or anything like that.

 

[Homeowner]

My point is this conflict is not a conflict based on supposed liberal democratic values. It's not a conflict over freedom or anything like that.

Pretty uninformed point. It most certainly is a conflict of Ukraine not getting subjugated by Russia. Of people not wanting to live under Russian fascist dictatorship as evidenced by Ukrainians will to fight and high morale. That certainly sounds like conflict over freedom or "something like that"

Whatever it lives up to your fantasy liberal democratic values as practiced in non existent utopias nobody cares.