Ukraine: The End Game

[ValeriyK2022]

When Kievan Rus was under the Mongol-Tatar yoke (13-14th century), the capital of the Horde was located in the region of the Caspian Sea. Now rockets are flying from the Caspian Sea region to Kyiv. This is for those who like to say that this war did not start on February 24th, but that it has been going on for years, decades or even centuries. So you can bring the chain to the time of Noah.

 

[mindlight]

The prophet Isaiah called the main causes of war (as a punishment for public sins):
1) idolatry, magic and disbelief in God;
2) ritual murders of children (similar to abortions);
3) sexual debauchery;
4) when laws and the state do not protect the poor from the rich.
Unfortunately, all 4 cause are in Russia, and in Ukraine, and in Western countries.

In this case, the direct cause of the war is one man's ambition to recreate the USSR or Russian Empire in the shadow of which many Russians continue to live. He may even believe he serves God in this endeavor as it is quite easy to list the sins of the West and the newfound centrality of the church in Russia as grounds for moral supremacy.

The USSR during World War II softened a lot in these four areas. And then there was a turning point in the war and he won (albeit with heavy losses). If at least a part of the society of Ukraine or Russia repents, God will give victory to the repentant side.

Yes in the USSR's darkest hour Stalin opened up the churches.

As for the United States, to intercede for the weak is for mercy. So the United States in 1990 stood up for Kuwait.

An example of a perfect intervention really.

Stronger countries do not have the right to seize weaker ones by force.

Objectively over the broad sweep of history, I would suggest this depends. Russia's imperial advances benefitted the church in Asia as did Britain, Spains, and Portugal's conquest of much of the world. The mission of bringing Christianity and civilization to pagan savages was not a completely worthless one. The Americas would not be Christian today without that impulse in fact.

Russia voluntarily let go of Ukraine in 1991 so as not to share oil and gas revenues or for other reasons. Then Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum (Ukraine gives Russia nuclear weapons, and Russia, together with the United States, guarantees the inviolability of its borders). There is no justification for a military attack on Ukraine in 2022.

The breakup of the USSR was an accident of history that required all sorts of muddled thinking by Russian leaders. Yeltsin only had to contend with the oligarchs in Russia rather than the KGB in all the other Soviet Republics also and this allowed him to consolidate his power at a key moment. Whatever the history by which Ukraine came to be it is recognized as a sovereign nation by the nations of the world and indeed by Russia also and the invasion cannot be justified in any legal way.

In unjust wars, as a rule, the victim of aggression wins. That's how it is arranged by God. Napoleon attacked and lost. Hitler attacked and lost. Saddam attacked and lost. Putin has attacked and must lose.

As a general rule yes but I think this war will end in a Pyrrhic victory for Putin in which he takes land in the East of Ukraine. To a considerable extent the majority of the people in much of the land he has taken wanted to be under Russian rule and resented attempts to be absorbed into Ukraine. This was clearly so in the Crimea and the East of the Donbas. My hope is that with these people gone the rest of Ukraine can now move into Europe and NATO and that its borders can be cemented. It is important therefore that they take Kherson so that navigation rights on the river can be shared and as a natural frontier between the two forces.

 

[Andrewn]

My hope is that with these people gone the rest of Ukraine can now move into Europe and NATO and that its borders can be cemented.

What do you think would happen if Germany wanted to join a Russian and/or a Chinese military alliance?

 

[archer75]

@mindlight What is happening now cannot possibly be understood as good for the ROC. It is now a nominally Christian body that supports genocide and the bombing of its own parishioners.

 

[mindlight]

What do you think would happen if Germany wanted to join a Russian and/or a Chinese military alliance?

It is an interesting and I hope entirely speculative question.

There would be many benefits like cheaper minerals and fossil fuels from Russia and better access to Chinese markets. Germany might even prosper for a season in such an alliance.

The costs are also quite clear. Europe would split apart and the Eastern half be absorbed into a Russian hegemony. Germany would become more militaristic but in a less benevolent way than in a fully European context. Since we would be directly endorsing totalitarian oppression in these countries the country would probably also move in that direction itself although it would take time in Germany itself.

The biggest change however would be the ending of Western hegemony as America would have effectively lost mainland Europe and would no longer have the economic weight to counter Russia and China together with elements of Europe. With such a balance of power shift would come wars and instability the like of which we have not seen for seven decades as America struggled to recognize the loss of its current advantages, e.g. the dominance of the dollar, the loss of control over the fossil fuel market, loss of bases and a new trading reality that would be weighted heavily against it. In that context, many in the USA would be tempted by new isolationism but the world has changed since Monroe and that would require a seismic and painful change in the US economy as its supply chains would no longer be global ones in many cases.

 

[mindlight]

@mindlight What is happening now cannot possibly be understood as good for the ROC. It is now a nominally Christian body that supports genocide and the bombing of its own parishioners.

The rationale is also a hypocritical one. Kirill is effectively endorsing a corrupt kleptocracy in which abortion is rife and the poor are exploited by rich oligarchs and yet claiming moral supremacy for the Russian cause. He cannot point a finger at the West's sins without also acknowledging Russia's own sins. This is no holy war, nor even a just one, as you say innocent believers are being indiscriminately slaughtered. The real rationale for this war was in effect a power grab and an attempt to extend Russia's borders to the Carpathians and forever change the world's balance of power. I believe that Russian ambitions will be halted at the Dnieper and that the North East has also chosen to stay in Ukraine. This is a perfect example of religious passion being coopted by the state for its own ends. I am praying for an end to the war and solid and lasting borders to follow its conclusion. This cannot be a preamble to later Russian adventures and the cost to Russia must therefore be regrettably prohibitive of that.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

In this case, the direct cause of the war is one man's ambition to recreate the USSR or Russian Empire in the shadow of which many Russians continue to live. He may even believe he serves God in this endeavor as it is quite easy to list the sins of the West and the newfound centrality of the church in Russia as grounds for moral supremacy.

I don't think he believes in the Christian God. But God is using him and other invaders for His purposes. He himself could not have done this (without the support of society). Russian and Ukrainian society in the 90s, between Christ and demonism (esotericism, occultism), chose to serve the demons. Atheism and materialism were replaced by neo-paganism and the cult of power (whether good or evil). They are strenuously trying to place the Church and God at the service of the state, although it should be the other way around.

Objectively over the broad sweep of history, I would suggest this depends. Russia's imperial advances benefitted the church in Asia as did Britain, Spains, and Portugal's conquest of much of the world. The mission of bringing Christianity and civilization to pagan savages was not a completely worthless one. The Americas would not be Christian today without that impulse in fact.

It seems to me that this is not the case. There are no more Christians in Russia than in Ukraine in percentage terms. We have neither Chechens (Muslims) nor Buryats (pagans).

The breakup of the USSR was an accident of history that required all sorts of muddled thinking by Russian leaders. Yeltsin only had to contend with the oligarchs in Russia rather than the KGB in all the other Soviet Republics also and this allowed him to consolidate his power at a key moment. Whatever the history by which Ukraine came to be it is recognized as a sovereign nation by the nations of the world and indeed by Russia also and the invasion cannot be justified in any legal way.

If we did not believe in God, then we would also think that this is an accident. But the USSR was destroyed by God in order to give once again a chance to make the right choice to the people who lived in it.

As a general rule yes but I think this war will end in a Pyrrhic victory for Putin in which he takes land in the East of Ukraine. To a considerable extent the majority of the people in much of the land he has taken wanted to be under Russian rule and resented attempts to be absorbed into Ukraine. This was clearly so in the Crimea and the East of the Donbas. My hope is that with these people gone the rest of Ukraine can now move into Europe and NATO and that its borders can be cemented. It is important therefore that they take Kherson so that navigation rights on the river can be shared and as a natural frontier between the two forces.

Yes, the Crimeans can resist the Ukrainian army. Propaganda worked for the minds. There may be too many losses of soldiers and civilians. Back in the spring, President Zelensky said that for Ukraine the highest value is human lives, so we will not storm Crimea by military means, we will return it only by political means. Crimea should be returned through diplomatic and political means. The inhabitants of those territories that were occupied after February 24 are suffering from the occupation and rejoice at the liberation from Russia. They must be saved from the bullying of the invaders. The situation is hardly predictable. Therefore, victory will depend only on God. With the help of the West, Ukraine can also win. It depends what you mean by victory. I am a private person. In my opinion, to win is to return Russia to the borders on February 23 and force them to compensate for all losses. Here, too, political steps are needed by the entire world community. This cannot be solved by military steps alone. This is especially true of material compensation for losses from the war.

To completely eliminate the threat to Russia is to eliminate Russia. I doubt this is possible. The United States was unable to defeat Vietnam militarily. Russia is stronger than Vietnam. Ukraine, even together with the United States, is unlikely to be able to defeat Russia militarily in such a way as to put its own government in Moscow. Political and economic steps must play a key role. But it is possible to return the territories seized after February 24, because the population in these territories is for us. They are still aware of themselves as citizens of Ukraine.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

@mindlight What is happening now cannot possibly be understood as good for the ROC. It is now a nominally Christian body that supports genocide and the bombing of its own parishioners.

The priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (headed by Metropolitan Onufry) answers priest of the Russian Orthodox Church

 

[Andrewn]

The biggest change however would be the ending of Western hegemony as America would have effectively lost mainland Europe and would no longer have the economic weight to counter Russia and China together with elements of Europe. With such a balance of power shift would come wars and instability the like of which we have not seen for seven decades as America struggled to recognize the loss of its current advantages, e.g. the dominance of the dollar, the loss of control over the fossil fuel market, loss of bases and a new trading reality that would be weighted heavily against it.

Of course, this is a highly fictional scenario. I don't think any of this would be allowed to take place. More likely NATO/USA army would be in Germany the next day, just like Russia did in Ukraine.

 

[mindlight]

I don't think he believes in the Christian God. But God is using him and other invaders for His purposes. He himself could not have done this (without the support of society). Russian and Ukrainian society in the 90s, between Christ and demonism (esotericism, occultism), chose to serve the demons. Atheism and materialism were replaced by neo-paganism and the cult of power (whether good or evil). They are strenuously trying to place the Church and God at the service of the state, although it should be the other way around.

There was a victory at the collapse of communism which restored the church and faith to many in both countries. But as with all conversion scenarios, there were a lot of issues in the transition and a great many demons have surfaced in different forms of evil than under atheistic materialism. Personally, I think Putin has had some kind of conversion experience but it is filtered through his obsession with power and his KGB experiences into something quite brutal and unrecognizable from a Christian point of view. I guess the whole discussion of whether Christians be demonized comes into play here. His actions speak of a major principality at work but as you say God is also at work in this process and has the bigger plan and purpose here. So despite the cost, I believe this war will be transformative.

It seems to me that this is not the case. There are no more Christians in Russia than in Ukraine in percentage terms. We have neither Chechens (Muslims) nor Buryats (pagans).

I was talking about the historical value of the use of force in an Eastward direction absorbing previously pagan or Muslim empires and Christianizing them. By contrast, there is little value in conflicts between nominally Christian nations as this only distracts from the witness of the true church.

If we did not believe in God, then we would also think that this is an accident. But the USSR was destroyed by God in order to give once again a chance to make the right choice to the people who lived in it.

I was talking on the human level. Wisdom was removed from Russian leaders in the transition from communism, and a lying spirit was allowed to muddle their thinking. I have no doubt that God was in charge of the process of dismantling communism as it was an answer to the prayers of the true church inside and outside the Soviet Union over a period of 7 decades. The blood of the martyrs required recompense. I also believe that despite the cost and pain caused by this war good can come out of it as old visions are broken and new ones formed.

Yes, the Crimeans can resist the Ukrainian army. Propaganda worked for the minds. There may be too many losses of soldiers and civilians. Back in the spring, President Zelensky said that for Ukraine the highest value is human lives, so we will not storm Crimea by military means, we will return it only by political means. Crimea should be returned through diplomatic and political means. The inhabitants of those territories that were occupied after February 24 are suffering from the occupation and rejoice at the liberation from Russia. They must be saved from the bullying of the invaders. The situation is hardly predictable. Therefore, victory will depend only on God. With the help of the West, Ukraine can also win.

It seems there is good news from the American midterms and that Ukrainian war funding will remain in place, also the suggested Russian withdrawal from Kherson would be good news for the economic future of Ukraine as it restores the river navigation. However, it also means that the Russians will have a more defensible frontier in the South and will be harder to dislodge. This indeed seems to be the military rationale for this withdrawal - they are moving toward a defensive posture on this front. Unless there is a change in the leadership in Russia however this war will continue until both sides are willing to sacrifice for peace.

It depends what you mean by victory. I am a private person. In my opinion, to win is to return Russia to the borders on February 23 and force them to compensate for all losses. Here, too, political steps are needed by the entire world community. This cannot be solved by military steps alone. This is especially true of material compensation for losses from the war.

The longer this war goes on the more impoverished Russia will be. The West has learned important lessons from the disastrous punitive reparations of Versailles after WW1 and it is unlikely that Ukraine will be in a position to demand such concessions. It seems to me that despite the illegitimacy of the aggression that this war resolves an essential split in Ukraine between Russian and Western-leaning elements and that the current lines would be fair. These borders have to be made permanent in the long run though. There can be no future expansion by Russia.

To completely eliminate the threat to Russia is to eliminate Russia. I doubt this is possible. The United States was unable to defeat Vietnam militarily. Russia is stronger than Vietnam. Ukraine, even together with the United States, is unlikely to be able to defeat Russia militarily in such a way as to put its own government in Moscow. Political and economic steps must play a key role. But it is possible to return the territories seized after February 24, because the population in these territories is for us. They are still aware of themselves as citizens of Ukraine.

Exactly even WW3 would not resolve this, just destroy all its participants, leaving a radioactive world in China's hands. A lasting treaty and then internal reform in Russia is the way forward. The cost of this war has not yet been digested by the Russian public because much of it has been concealed from them. But they are diminished power moving forward.

 

[mindlight]

The priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (headed by Metropolitan Onufry) answers priest of the Russian Orthodox Church

Can you summarize what he said? Since he was not speaking English.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

There was a victory at the collapse of communism which restored the church and faith to many in both countries. But as with all conversion scenarios, there were a lot of issues in the transition and a great many demons have surfaced in different forms of evil than under atheistic materialism. Personally, I think Putin has had some kind of conversion experience but it is filtered through his obsession with power and his KGB experiences into something quite brutal and unrecognizable from a Christian point of view. I guess the whole discussion of whether Christians be demonized comes into play here. His actions speak of a major principality at work but as you say God is also at work in this process and has the bigger plan and purpose here. So despite the cost, I believe this war will be transformative.

The victory over communism did not completely restore faith. because God does not plant faith by force. It gave a chance to return to faith. But far fewer people took advantage of this chance than they could have.

I am quoting the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church who had already died before the war (so that there was no suspicion that they were involved in military propaganda). Archpriest Dmitriy Smirnov said that the mission to convert to Christianity the leadership of the Armed Forces and all general ministries and departments of the military (the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB) has completely failed. The military and political leadership of the Russian Federation, the generals, and senior officers made a choice in favor of neo-paganism and occultism. False concept of power (without mind), worship of the cult of power (without God).

The same thing happened in Ukraine.

Politicians and propagandists use Christian churches for propaganda. There is no desire to please Jesus Christ.

The late priest Daniil Sysoev said that in the 1990s, the people of the USSR were given a chance to choose between Christ and the devil, and unfortunately, the majority of baptized people chose the devil. If in Russia and Ukraine at least 30% of the people came to the temples, there would not be enough places. They would stand on the street (this happens only at Easter and a couple of other times a year). Almost no one even tries to study the Christian faith. Almost no one tries to live according to the Gospel. In the 90s, an occult revolution took place. People massively began to cooperate with the devil to achieve pragmatic goals. Since then, the consciousness of people began to change. People became more cruel than during the USSR, human life was devalued. This is the reason for such a bloody massacre that is happening now, and not in the machinations of the West, as Russian propaganda tries to show.

I was talking about the historical value of the use of force in an Eastward direction absorbing previously pagan or Muslim empires and Christianizing them. By contrast, there is little value in conflicts between nominally Christian nations as this only distracts from the witness of the true church.

Yes, in the conditions of war it is no longer up to missionary work. The main issue is physical survival.

I was talking on the human level. Wisdom was removed from Russian leaders in the transition from communism, and a lying spirit was allowed to muddle their thinking. I have no doubt that God was in charge of the process of dismantling communism as it was an answer to the prayers of the true church inside and outside the Soviet Union over a period of 7 decades. The blood of the martyrs required recompense. I also believe that despite the cost and pain caused by this war good can come out of it as old visions are broken and new ones formed.

The Monk Paisios the Holy Mountaineer, following the Apostle Paul, says that God, even evil, can turn into good. But we do not have to do evil that good has come out.

It seems there is good news from the American midterms and that Ukrainian war funding will remain in place, also the suggested Russian withdrawal from Kherson would be good news for the economic future of Ukraine as it restores the river navigation. However, it also means that the Russians will have a more defensible frontier in the South and will be harder to dislodge. This indeed seems to be the military rationale for this withdrawal - they are moving toward a defensive posture on this front. Unless there is a change in the leadership in Russia however this war will continue until both sides are willing to sacrifice for peace.

Christians in this situation should be more concerned about the fate of the people than the strength of the state (one's own or the enemy's). For Jesus Christ, the human soul is more valuable than all the inanimate world with its treasures. In the territories occupied after February 23, people suffer greatly. It is very important to free them from suffering. This suffering will end only after Ukraine takes control of these territories. At the same time, we must save our soldiers, who are also waiting for their mothers, wives and children at home.

The longer this war goes on the more impoverished Russia will be. The West has learned important lessons from the disastrous punitive reparations of Versailles after WW1 and it is unlikely that Ukraine will be in a position to demand such concessions. It seems to me that despite the illegitimacy of the aggression that this war resolves an essential split in Ukraine between Russian and Western-leaning elements and that the current lines would be fair. These borders have to be made permanent in the long run though. There can be no future expansion by Russia.

Greece wants no strong Turkey, Israel wants no strong Iran, Ukraine wants no strong Russia. As well as vice versa. According to human logic, this is a normal desire. But how it will be in reality - only God will decide.

If there is peace, it is very important that it be such that it will not allow Russia to attack Ukraine again. But it depends on God, but politicians do not take God into account either in Russia, or in Ukraine, or in the United States. They rely on the power of wealth and technology, and then wonder why it all does not work at a critical period. Or it doesn't work as expected.

Exactly even WW3 would not resolve this, just destroy all its participants, leaving a radioactive world in China's hands. A lasting treaty and then internal reform in Russia is the way forward. The cost of this war has not yet been digested by the Russian public because much of it has been concealed from them. But they are diminished power moving forward.

Here, too, everything is in the hands of God. The sooner politicians begin to understand this, the better for the world.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Can you summarize what he said? Since he was not speaking English.

He objects to the priest of the Russian Orthodox Church, who defends Patriarch Kirill. As you know, Patriarch Kirill did 2 things: 1) approved and blessed this war; 2) said that those Russian soldiers who would die, will go straight to heaven.

The priest of the UOC says that when Poroshenko was president, they really asked for protection from abroad. But in the last years (before the war), when President Zelensky came to power, the situation began to change very much for the better. And in relation to peacefulness, and in relation to the Cannic Church (UOC). Therefore, there is no justification for this military attack, where, among a dozen different goals, the defense of Orthodoxy is also indicated. The UOC did not need such protection. Where people have lost their faith, they cannot be converted to Christianity by force. And where there was a strong community and normally formalized documents, the state always protected the temples of the UOC from attacks by competitors from the OCU who tried to seize the temples. The police always defended in such cases and the courts made fair decisions.

Regarding individual priests, he says that in his diocese there were 2 priests who helped the enemy. One after the battle was shot by the territorial defense as an enemy soldier, and not as a priest. Although he does not justify this, it was necessary first to judge, but that priest was more like a soldier than like a priest. Another also gave the enemy secret information about the location of Ukrainian troops and was arrested as a spy. The Ukrainian military did not touch any of the priests of their diocese (there are usually hundreds of priests in the diocese of the UOC). Therefore, the fact that Russian propagandists are promoting attacks on priests is isolated cases when priests took part in an armed conflict on the side of the enemy.

In fact, he says that there are no claims against the President of Ukraine and the authorities of Ukraine in their diocese, everything is done within the framework of the law. In this way the defense of Orthodoxy is a fictitious goal. The ROC also substitutes the UOC with this, so that even those parishioners who are now turn away from it. (The war is being waged neither on a national basis, nor on a religious basis, but only on a territorial basis. Russia will bomb you if you live on the territory of Ukraine).

Regarding the fact that soldiers who die on the battlefield go to heaven (as Patriarch Kirill says), this priest argues that this is a heresy condemned by the Ecumenical Councils. Although there were ancient saints who said this, but they said it even before the decision of the whole church was. And now, when there is a decision of the whole Church, to say such things is heresy.

Summary: 1) there is no justification for a military attack on Ukraine; 2) Patriarch Kirill speaks heresy, claiming that the dead soldiers all go to heaven.

*I may not have recounted it video verbatim, but I think I conveyed the main meaning.

 

[mindlight]

The victory over communism did not completely restore faith. because God does not plant faith by force. It gave a chance to return to faith. But far fewer people took advantage of this chance than they could have.

I am quoting the priests of the Russian Orthodox Church who had already died before the war (so that there was no suspicion that they were involved in military propaganda). Archpriest Dmitriy Smirnov said that the mission to convert to Christianity the leadership of the Armed Forces and all general ministries and departments of the military (the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB) has completely failed. The military and political leadership of the Russian Federation, the generals, and senior officers made a choice in favor of neo-paganism and occultism. False concept of power (without mind), worship of the cult of power (without God).

The same thing happened in Ukraine.

Politicians and propagandists use Christian churches for propaganda. There is no desire to please Jesus Christ.

The late priest Daniil Sysoev said that in the 1990s, the people of the USSR were given a chance to choose between Christ and the devil, and unfortunately, the majority of baptized people chose the devil. If in Russia and Ukraine at least 30% of the people came to the temples, there would not be enough places. They would stand on the street (this happens only at Easter and a couple of other times a year). Almost no one even tries to study the Christian faith. Almost no one tries to live according to the Gospel. In the 90s, an occult revolution took place. People massively began to cooperate with the devil to achieve pragmatic goals. Since then, the consciousness of people began to change. People became more cruel than during the USSR, human life was devalued. This is the reason for such a bloody massacre that is happening now, and not in the machinations of the West, as Russian propaganda tries to show.

It is clear the new Russia in the nineties opened up to all sorts of unsavory demons, false religions, and cults but I think you exaggerate your case here in an attempt to demonize the opposition.

https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1993-806-03-Rosenthal.pdf

However, the state itself has attempted to replace the Communist party with the church at the heart of its society. The building of this cathedral is the perfect example of that:

Angels and artillery: a cathedral to Russia's new national identity

Historically there have been many examples of the marriage of state militarism, patriotism, and faith and European countries are major examples of this. The percentage of Russians proclaiming a Christian faith is now a majority of the population. I see this as a positive development while the relationship with the state has been compromising. There are many prominent leaders who profess faith in Russia also including Putin himself.

Yes, in the conditions of war it is no longer up to missionary work. The main issue is physical survival.

Professing faith in the darkest of times is the most powerful of witnesses.

The Monk Paisios the Holy Mountaineer, following the Apostle Paul, says that God, even evil, can turn into good. But we do not have to do evil that good has come out.

Obviously.

Christians in this situation should be more concerned about the fate of the people than the strength of the state (one's own or the enemy's). For Jesus Christ, the human soul is more valuable than all the inanimate world with its treasures. In the territories occupied after February 23, people suffer greatly. It is very important to free them from suffering. This suffering will end only after Ukraine takes control of these territories. At the same time, we must save our soldiers, who are also waiting for their mothers, wives and children at home.

Some people stayed in Kherson to welcome the Ukrainian troops back and others left with the Russians, I have seen the camera footage of both groups. There is a real division and despite the pains of living in occupied Ukraine a great many citizens seem to want to be Russian, not Ukrainian. I think a division of the country between these two Ukrainian people is the most likely outcome of this war.

Greece wants no strong Turkey, Israel wants no strong Iran, Ukraine wants no strong Russia. As well as vice versa. According to human logic, this is a normal desire. But how it will be in reality - only God will decide.

Nationalism and conflict can blind people to the divisions in nations and deepen them. Not all Ukrainians oppose the Russians but it is clear that this war has been a nation-forming event in which the majority of Ukrainians have defined themselves as a people apart from the Russians and are in the process of reclaiming their history

If there is peace, it is very important that it be such that it will not allow Russia to attack Ukraine again. But it depends on God, but politicians do not take God into account either in Russia, or in Ukraine, or in the United States. They rely on the power of wealth and technology, and then wonder why it all does not work at a critical period. Or it doesn't work as expected.

Here, too, everything is in the hands of God. The sooner politicians begin to understand this, the better for the world.

The withdrawal from Kherson looks great on paper for Ukraine as it means they now control the West bank of the Dnieper and can continue to use the river to bring down grain from the lands within. But it seems that it is really about establishing a defensible frontier for a long war and it allows Russian forces to regroup. The pretext for invasion in the future remains as the Russians claim the West bank parts of Kherson are now a part of Russia. I fully agree that any peace agreement has to finalize borders and the river is a natural frontier for that peace agreement in the South. Any peace agreement should include a concession from the Russians that Kherson is not Russian. It is unlikely that having lost 100000 men in this conflict that the Russians are about to simply walk away and they are now in positions that the Ukrainians would struggle to take.

Wealth and technology do not win wars by themselves and there are innumerable examples of how they can blind people to threats. 911 is a classic example where a secularised American intelligence service failed to read the religious mindset. You are not fighting this war with your own wealth and technology and depend on the support of the international community to stay in the fight. Without the hi-tech and funds from the West Ukraine would struggle to stay in the fight. Ukrainian nationalists are celebrating victories now and building momentum for a long war but the Russians are now entrenched in the South and any attempt to displace them could cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

What is the Christian thing to do here? To say 'my country right or wrong whatever the cost' or to look for what can be achieved without a long war of attrition followed by an inevitable draw along the existing battle lines.

 

[mindlight]

He objects to the priest of the Russian Orthodox Church, who defends Patriarch Kirill. As you know, Patriarch Kirill did 2 things: 1) approved and blessed this war; 2) said that those Russian soldiers who would die, will go straight to heaven.

The priest of the UOC says that when Poroshenko was president, they really asked for protection from abroad. But in the last years (before the war), when President Zelensky came to power, the situation began to change very much for the better. And in relation to peacefulness, and in relation to the Cannic Church (UOC). Therefore, there is no justification for this military attack, where, among a dozen different goals, the defense of Orthodoxy is also indicated. The UOC did not need such protection. Where people have lost their faith, they cannot be converted to Christianity by force. And where there was a strong community and normally formalized documents, the state always protected the temples of the UOC from attacks by competitors from the OCU who tried to seize the temples. The police always defended in such cases and the courts made fair decisions.

Regarding individual priests, he says that in his diocese there were 2 priests who helped the enemy. One after the battle was shot by the territorial defense as an enemy soldier, and not as a priest. Although he does not justify this, it was necessary first to judge, but that priest was more like a soldier than like a priest. Another also gave the enemy secret information about the location of Ukrainian troops and was arrested as a spy. The Ukrainian military did not touch any of the priests of their diocese (there are usually hundreds of priests in the diocese of the UOC). Therefore, the fact that Russian propagandists are promoting attacks on priests is isolated cases when priests took part in an armed conflict on the side of the enemy.

In fact, he says that there are no claims against the President of Ukraine and the authorities of Ukraine in their diocese, everything is done within the framework of the law. In this way the defense of Orthodoxy is a fictitious goal. The ROC also substitutes the UOC with this, so that even those parishioners who are now turn away from it. (The war is being waged neither on a national basis, nor on a religious basis, but only on a territorial basis. Russia will bomb you if you live on the territory of Ukraine).

Regarding the fact that soldiers who die on the battlefield go to heaven (as Patriarch Kirill says), this priest argues that this is a heresy condemned by the Ecumenical Councils. Although there were ancient saints who said this, but they said it even before the decision of the whole church was. And now, when there is a decision of the whole Church, to say such things is heresy.

Summary: 1) there is no justification for a military attack on Ukraine; 2) Patriarch Kirill speaks heresy, claiming that the dead soldiers all go to heaven.

*I may not have recounted it video verbatim, but I think I conveyed the main meaning.

It seems to me that the split between the UOC and ROC has been developing for some time and defines the spiritual shift toward two nations under God.

Kirill's language and positions do not seem of God to me and the Orthodox and Ecumenical communities of churches all agree on that. This war was illegitimately justified even though it addresses a real division between two competing visions within Ukraine itself.

The act of blessing soldiers is less controversial to me and especially if these men have genuine faith. A great many German Christian men served their country and their God faithfully in an illegitimate war and I cannot fault them for that. Many of these were also martyred as they could not obey orders which amounted to war crimes and were shot. Others chose to commit these crimes to safeguard the lives of the man next to them and the families they left behind. Again love can express itself in the worst of circumstances and times in a variety of ways. It is incredibly messy and perhaps only God can see who acted faithfully and with love and who did not. So I do believe that a great many soldiers fighting in this war on both sides will die and go straight to be with their God. But they do not go there because they fight in this war but rather because of their personal faith in the One who justifies them.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

It is clear the new Russia in the nineties opened up to all sorts of unsavory demons, false religions, and cults but I think you exaggerate your case here in an attempt to demonize the opposition.

If I wrote that in Russia this is the case, but in Ukraine the situation with Christianity is better, it would be the same as demonizing the enemy. But I wrote that in this respect we are the same. And Germany, according to the information that I have to read, is also no better.

However, the state itself has attempted to replace the Communist party with the church at the heart of its society. The building of this cathedral is the perfect example of that:

Angels and artillery: a cathedral to Russia's new national identity

So it was in the 18th and 19th centuries, from Peter 1 to Nicholas 2. But now the situation is different. If the Orthodox Christian ideology before 1917 and the communist ideology before 1991 had a monopoly, now this is only one of the options. The basis of ideology is not even Orthodoxy, but vanity: we are great, we are special, we are winners, etc. In second place is the love of money, the worship of the golden calf. The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. And in this motley ideology of the cult of vanity, the worship of strength, and the cult of pleasure, the propagandists managed to mount the sermons of Patriarch Kirill and Okhlobystin.

Historically there have been many examples of the marriage of state militarism, patriotism, and faith and European countries are major examples of this. The percentage of Russians proclaiming a Christian faith is now a majority of the population. I see this as a positive development while the relationship with the state has been compromising. There are many prominent leaders who profess faith in Russia also including Putin himself.

What is this proclaiming a Christian faith? For a Protestant, confession consists of: 1) careful study of the Holy Scriptures; 2) confess Jesus Christ as your redeemer. For Catholics - 1) in good deeds for the sake of Christ and 2) communion of the body and blood of Christ at the Sunday service. For the Orthodox, these are: 1) a thorough study of the Holy Scriptures and the Tradition of the Orthodox Church; 2) regular attendance at church Sunday services and communion of the Body and Blood of Christ; 3) good deeds for the sake of Christ. What percentage of those who call themselves Orthodox do this? In different cities from 2 to 5%. This is both in Russia and in Ukraine. As one priest put it, most of those who call themselves Orthodox are of Tibetan Orthodox Shamanism. This is not Christianity. Orthodoxy without Christ. Orthodoxy with occult false teachings. If you don't believe me, come to Moscow or Kyiv and take a look. But I think that in Berlin the situation is no better.

Some people stayed in Kherson to welcome the Ukrainian troops back and others left with the Russians, I have seen the camera footage of both groups. There is a real division and despite the pains of living in occupied Ukraine a great many citizens seem to want to be Russian, not Ukrainian. I think a division of the country between these two Ukrainian people is the most likely outcome of this war.

It is not a fact that those who left Kherson for the territory of Russia and the Crimea did so out of sympathy to Russia. According to my information, some may have left long before this due to the lack of medicines. They would simply not have waited and died if they had not agreed to move. Their relatives also left with them. The same goes for people with babies. They couldn't put the kids in danger. They temporarily left for the territory of Russia in order to return when civilization invades Kherson. The third category is afraid to be mobilized into any army (Ukrainian or Russian). If there is a chance to move anywhere, just not to fight, they move, but are ready to return when this danger has passed. Someone could be forcibly taken out.

The withdrawal from Kherson looks great on paper for Ukraine as it means they now control the West bank of the Dnieper and can continue to use the river to bring down grain from the lands within. But it seems that it is really about establishing a defensible frontier for a long war and it allows Russian forces to regroup. The pretext for invasion in the future remains as the Russians claim the West bank parts of Kherson are now a part of Russia. I fully agree that any peace agreement has to finalize borders and the river is a natural frontier for that peace agreement in the South. Any peace agreement should include a concession from the Russians that Kherson is not Russian. It is unlikely that having lost 100000 men in this conflict that the Russians are about to simply walk away and they are now in positions that the Ukrainians would struggle to take.

Wealth and technology do not win wars by themselves and there are innumerable examples of how they can blind people to threats. 911 is a classic example where a secularised American intelligence service failed to read the religious mindset. You are not fighting this war with your own wealth and technology and depend on the support of the international community to stay in the fight. Without the hi-tech and funds from the West Ukraine would struggle to stay in the fight. Ukrainian nationalists are celebrating victories now and building momentum for a long war but the Russians are now entrenched in the South and any attempt to displace them could cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

What is the Christian thing to do here? To say 'my country right or wrong whatever the cost' or to look for what can be achieved without a long war of attrition followed by an inevitable draw along the existing battle lines.

If we talk about actions, then Russia wanted to repeat the maneuvers of the USSR to expand the borders: first they captured Kharkov and made the capital of Soviet Ukraine in Kharkov, then they captured Kyiv and made the capital it in Kyiv, then they annexed Western Ukraine and the Baltic States, then they established control over Poland and all of Eastern Europe (Europe right up to Berlin). But this intention of theirs is already faltering. If Russia succeeds in expanding its territory even slightly through this war, it will inspire it to continue in the same direction, as far as Berlin. It is necessary to return Russia, at least, to the borders on February 23, so that it would no longer be wanting to seize land by military means.

At the same time, there is nothing more valuable for human lives. And the lives of people who are suffering now in the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions under occupation are also valuable.

I feel sorry for the soldiers, and feel sorry for those people who suffer from the occupation. I am glad that nothing depends on my opinion. Everything depends on God. Thank God!

 

[ValeriyK2022]

It seems to me that the split between the UOC and ROC has been developing for some time and defines the spiritual shift toward two nations under God.

Kirill's language and positions do not seem of God to me and the Orthodox and Ecumenical communities of churches all agree on that. This war was illegitimately justified even though it addresses a real division between two competing visions within Ukraine itself.

The act of blessing soldiers is less controversial to me and especially if these men have genuine faith. A great many German Christian men served their country and their God faithfully in an illegitimate war and I cannot fault them for that. Many of these were also martyred as they could not obey orders which amounted to war crimes and were shot. Others chose to commit these crimes to safeguard the lives of the man next to them and the families they left behind. Again love can express itself in the worst of circumstances and times in a variety of ways. It is incredibly messy and perhaps only God can see who acted faithfully and with love and who did not. So I do believe that a great many soldiers fighting in this war on both sides will die and go straight to be with their God. But they do not go there because they fight in this war but rather because of their personal faith in the One who justifies them.

There is no doctrinal split. We believe in the same thing. The differences are exclusively in a different attitude towards this war.

Saint Nicholas of Japan (who was Russian by nationality, but headed the Japanese Orthodox Church) during the Russo-Japanese War of 1905 blessed the Orthodox Japanese to pray for their homeland (Japan), and he himself went into seclusion to pray for his homeland (Russia). He went into seclusion so that he would not be accused of espionage or other assistance to Russia, which would have been indecent during the war. He rose above this situation. This is what a bishop should do when war has divided his flock. Patriarch Kirill had to rise above this situation and equally protect both the Orthodox in Russia and the Orthodox in Ukraine. On the first day of the war, everyone were waiting for him to finally say to Putin: stop! It is a sin!

Regarding the fact that among Ukrainians there was a different attitude towards Russia, we can draw the following analogy. In the family, people quarreled over some issue. Share this with a neighbor who lives nearby. They thought he was a smart man and would help them reconcile. They thought so, because in words he reasoned very wisely. And he came and killed one of the family members. Even those who complained were shocked by this act. Even those who complained are now calling the police to stop a neighbor who wants to kill them and take over the house. The neighbor turned out to be a criminal. He took advantage of a quarrel in the family of neighbors to satisfy his own selfish goals (as one of the pretexts for committing his crimes). It was a mistake to consult with him and complain to him. So everything changed in Ukraine after February 24th. The police are NATO and the USA. Neighbor is Russia. After a neighbor came, killed, robbed and took away land and property, the attitude towards Russia even of those who, before February 24, wanted to be friends with Russia, changed.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Another priest of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, headed by Metropolitan Onufry, speaks of the absurdity of Russia's explanations. The Russian military-political leadership and propagandists have declared that they are waging a holy war against Satanism. Batiushka tells a story that when there was an uprising of the Decembrists in Russia in the 19th century, then the arrested Decembrists were then asked: what did you want? They answered that they wanted the serfs to be given freedom. They were asked: do you have your own serfs? They answered: yes. Have you given freedom to your peasants? Answer: no...

So now Russia is fighting Satanism around itself, but not within its own state. For example, a well-known singer, who now supports the war against Ukraine, trampled on the cross with his feet in the spring. And there are many such people in Russia. But they are bombing the Ukrainians.

There is no justification for this Russian military attack on Ukraine.

 

[lismore]

How do you think this will end?

With the return of the Lord Jesus Christ:

In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore (Isaiah 2:2-4).

 

[mindlight]

What is this proclaiming a Christian faith? For a Protestant, confession consists of: 1) careful study of the Holy Scriptures; 2) confess Jesus Christ as your redeemer. For Catholics - 1) in good deeds for the sake of Christ and 2) communion of the body and blood of Christ at the Sunday service. For the Orthodox, these are: 1) a thorough study of the Holy Scriptures and the Tradition of the Orthodox Church; 2) regular attendance at church Sunday services and communion of the Body and Blood of Christ; 3) good deeds for the sake of Christ. What percentage of those who call themselves Orthodox do this? In different cities from 2 to 5%. This is both in Russia and in Ukraine. As one priest put it, most of those who call themselves Orthodox are of Tibetan Orthodox Shamanism. This is not Christianity. Orthodoxy without Christ. Orthodoxy with occult false teachings. If you don't believe me, come to Moscow or Kyiv and take a look. But I think that in Berlin the situation is no better.

If you cannot read then you cannot study the bible. Alfred the Great in England for example engaged in a plan of literacy and legal reform that had the bible at its center in his efforts to build a Christian Kingdom. When the catholic Spaniards captured Latin America they destroyed pagan religions and forcibly converted populations. In time those conversions became real and heartfelt. The use of force and the powers of the state are not always illegitimate. In the expansion of Russia into Asia they also swept the way clean to allow for missionaries and conversions to occur. In the modern Russian and Ukrainian states, you might be right that there is a superficiality and nominalism about confession that does not include actual praise and thanks of the Divine and is confused or completely ignorant about basic Christian doctrines.

It is not a fact that those who left Kherson for the territory of Russia and the Crimea did so out of sympathy to Russia. According to my information, some may have left long before this due to the lack of medicines. They would simply not have waited and died if they had not agreed to move. Their relatives also left with them. The same goes for people with babies. They couldn't put the kids in danger. They temporarily left for the territory of Russia in order to return when civilization invades Kherson. The third category is afraid to be mobilized into any army (Ukrainian or Russian). If there is a chance to move anywhere, just not to fight, they move, but are ready to return when this danger has passed. Someone could be forcibly taken out.

Fair enough that does sound reasonable but does not rule out a basic favoring of one national vision over another by a substantial proportion of the groups that chose to go to Russia or Ukraine.

If Russia succeeds in expanding its territory even slightly through this war, it will inspire it to continue in the same direction, as far as Berlin. It is necessary to return Russia, at least, to the borders on February 23, so that it would no longer be wanting to seize land by military means.

At the same time, there is nothing more valuable for human lives. And the lives of people who are suffering now in the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions under occupation are also valuable.

Russia cannot take on NATO, period, without being completely decimated. With all due respect to the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian military, they are poorly equipped by comparison and lack the sheer weight, command and control, and quality of the NATO alliance. Yet even they can defeat Russia and have done so in the North and in Kherson by making the Russian positions there untenable. Indeed many Ukrainian successes have been due to these resources being made available to them in advanced weaponry, intelligence, and training. Even if the Americans were not involved European countries by themselves could defeat Russia, defending their own borders and homelands. Thankfully with the USA, this outcome is assured. So there is no threat of further Russian advances regardless of the outcome of this war into NATO countries. Nor could Russia hold these countries if it took them. The cost of occupying them would be unsustainable for their economy. That said we also have no desire to see Russia take over a free and sovereign state and push its borders to the Carpathians.

Populations in the Donbas and Crimea are clearly collaborating with Russian rule and it sounds like propaganda to assume that their loyalties are with Ukraine in all cases.

This is what a bishop should do when war has divided his flock. Patriarch Kirill had to rise above this situation and equally protect both the Orthodox in Russia and the Orthodox in Ukraine. On the first day of the war, everyone were waiting for him to finally say to Putin: stop! It is a sin!

I think that both Putin and Kirill thought this would easy and costless at the beginning and that Ukraine would fold very quickly. Now both have doubled down on their early positions and refuse to see how they are killing their own soldiers and indeed flocks in vast numbers. Kirill has been clearly denounced by everyone who matters and outside Russia has zero credibility.

The police are NATO and the USA. Neighbor is Russia. After a neighbor came, killed, robbed and took away land and property, the attitude towards Russia even of those who, before February 24, wanted to be friends with Russia, changed.

We are friendly to Ukraine and respect its sovereignty but this is not our fight until our own borders are crossed and Article 5 is triggered. We support Ukraine but have no interest in escalating this beyond Ukrainian borders. So equipment, intelligence, money, training, and prayers are what we give as well as safe havens for Ukrainians in exile. It is not possible for NATO to fully intervene without escalating this war into something much more devastating. Officially the UN is the police here but it is a toothless tiger when faced with a member of the Security Council breaking its rules. Europe and the USA sympathize with the Ukrainians but it is your fight. As such and given these constraints I do not see the reoccupation of the Crimea or parts of the Donbas as a realistic goal.