U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by mjwhite
I already answered you. Why didn’t you address my points? Simply reasserting your position is no way to debate. You are not even thinking straight. Do you really think Paul means ALL to mean EVERY ONE WHO EVER LIVES? Do you pray for Hitler? Pharaoh? Do you give thanks for the 9-11 bombers? Did Jesus give His life as a ransom for those already dead and in hell? You argue for a no-exceptions ALL, but your argument is not based on fact or common sense. ALL is qualified in every instance in this passage. Paul doesn’t always give every nuance of doctrinal theology in every sentence. Paul assumes his readers have the same basic theology as he does because he brought them the truth and is like their father in the faith. To simply indiscriminately make blanket statements about what is written shows that you are not thinking things through but are letting your doctrinal biases guide your understanding of the Word as opposed to letting the Word guide your doctrine.

First, where did you adress that? All I saw was that you basically accused me of ripping it out of context, but not providing any Biblical backing for your claim. You simply stated that's the way it is, and expected me to take it as fact. I didn't address the John 17:3 issue, because it has nothing to do with the issue of "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4.
Secondly, I want to make a suggestion to you on your argument style. Maybe you should learn some tact, and realize you don't have to insult people to try to get your point across.

 

[mjwhite]

dear Slavenomore,

I apologize for offending you. It was unintentional.

In my post 103, I answered you. Hereit is:
I Timothy 2:4
"Who desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

Again, you rip the verse out on context and assign your own meaning to it.. Paul is not making a statement of what God wills for every single human that ever lived. Many have gone and died and went to hell already. Does God now will them to be saved? If God willed that Judas be saved why did He write the Scripture that Judas [as the son of perdition] must be lost? See John 17:13. And while you are in John 17, read the prayer in context. Read how Jesus is NOT praying for the world in general [and specifically says that], but rather is only praying for believers. John 17:6-21.

The question is: Does the ALL in 1Tim 2:4 mean everybody who ever will live or not.

If God wants all people who ever lived to be saved then why does He:
Reveal this truth to some and not others? Mat 13, Mat 11, ICor 2 among other verses.

If God wants all people who ever lived to be saved, then why does He not draw them ALL to Himself? John 6.

If mercy and grace are freely given by God, AND we cannot earn our salvation but are dependent upun that mercy and grace, why doesn't God extend that mercy and grace to everyone who ever lived? Why does He save some and not others?

Why does He have mercy on some and harden others? Romans 8

Do you think you earn God's mercy by faith? Why are we to boast only in the Cross of Christ?

Is the difference between heaven and hell the cross or not?

If not, what did Jesus do to save you that He didn't do for those in hell? Nothing? Then how is it He saved you?

If by His foreknowledge, God knew who would be saved and who would never be saved, and still went ahead and made the world, how does He desire the known-to-Him-to-be-lost-forever saved?

And if God desired all to be saved, why does Jesus limit His prayer to just the elect? john 17

Finally, the verse itself, 1Tim 2:4 cannot mean that God desires eveyman who ever lived to be saved. It is implied in that verse that these men are alive or yet to live. So therefore unless you wish to include those dead and in hell already, you have to put restrictions on the word ALL yourself. So we see that the verse is not meant to mean what you desire it to mean but something different.

Also, in the context of the verse, ALL men doesn't and shouldn't be read as every-man-who-ever-lived-or-will-live. The verses previous to this make that clear. Paul didn't expect his readers to actually pray for every individual, whether in a position of power, or not. But if you decide to interpret ALL MEN to mean every individual, that is what you think you should be doing. And not only doing, as in when you get the time, but as verse 1 tells us, FIRST OF ALL. When you get done praying individually for every single soul alive [individually] do you think millions more will be born? It is an impossible task.

Therefore Paul is only speaking generally when he says ALL MEN. If you knew the context of the times in which he wrote this, you might understand that there were people on either side of his position claiming exclusivisity of salvation. One group were Jews who wnated to keep salvation Jewish. The other group were Gnostics, who wanted to keep salvation in their cult. These were the opponents of paul who were enemies of the Gospel. Similar today of those who wish to claim faith in Jesus is not needed for salvation. Yet they call themselves Christians!

Since Paul is only speaking generally about all men, he is not laying down a doctrine of God. Read Romans 9 where Paul is laying down a doctrine of God. THere he is answering complaints from others as to his beliefs about this very subject. Since Paul is speaking generally and not specifically, he is not saying that God desires each and every person to be saved [since among other reasons God made the world knowing many wouldn't ever be saved] but only saying that God desires men everywhere in general to be saved. That is why I showed you Rev. 5. The idea is the same. God saves men from every tongue, tribe, nation, and peoples. How can God do this? What if one tribe all failed to believe? But God does do it because faith is recieved by man by the working of the Holy Spirit as He individually brings the person into Kingdom.

The only way you can hold the line is to give up both the foreknowledge of God, and the truth that salvation is by faith in Christ. God made the world KNOWING many would be damned by Him [His foreknowledge]so it is inconsistent of Him to also desire their salvation knowing all the while that there is no way they would ever get saved. Likewise, God KNEW that million upon millions would never hear the gospel. He made the world anyhow. If faith in Jesus is needed for salvation, then He KNEW these millions, probally billions would never truly hear the gospel and die in their sins.

Your choice.
Read the Word and decide which is more important to you. God's foreknowledge and salvation by faith in Christ OR your interpretation of ALL MEN in 1Tim 2.

in His love,
mike

 

[Ben johnson]

Your silence on my other points is duly noted.

My silence is because you simply are not open to what the Bible says. So fixed are you in your position, that everything is filtered through your pre-conceived-theology. I could respond on the Romans 9 passage, and cite two different interpretations (Jacob-Esau as individuals, former faithful and latter not, thus the faithful receiving God's affection, the faithless not; AND/OR the concept of "Jacob-Esau" being archetypes, IE "Jacob-as-a-PEOPLE" {God's chosen} and "Esau-as-a-PEOPLE" {outside})...

I have already answered this, but Ben has ducked my answer. But I will answer it again, Romans 10:9-10 tells us that it is only those who believe in the heart that are justified. Paul has already established this point prior to Romans 5:18. See Romans 3:21-28, which plainly teaches that men are justified by faith. Therefore in Romans 5:18, Paul sees no reason to re-establish that point again. Are all men justified by the cross of Christ, or only those with faith?

I could explain to you that Paul declares "Jesus died to provide "dikaiosis-justification" to "pas-anthropos-all-men-THE-WORLD", and everyone KNEW that justification is only accomplished through belief/faith/repentance, so PAUL understood it, the APOSTLES understood it and every READER of Rom5:18 understands it (so-why-would-Paul-spell-out-the-very-basics-in-every-single-scripture {if you could go back in TIME and ask this question to Paul, he would say, "Well, DUH, the justification is FOR all men and they are justified IF they BELIEVE/RECEIVE-JESUS"})...

I could explain all that to you, I could go back and cite verse after verse after verse that speak of our "enduring/abiding/being-diligent-in-our-FELLOWSHIP", admonishing us to "not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin into falling away from the living God", to "understand that Jesus is our confidence which enters within the veil, so let us draw near with a tre heart in full asurance of hope, and hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for if WE continue sinning willfully after receiving TRUE knowledge of the truth, we expect only condemnation, beware how severe punishment for he who tramples underfoot the Son of God and regards as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified (as if we can be sanctified by His blood BUT NEVER HAVE BEEN SAVED), so therefore do not throw away your confidence (do not throw away JESUS from your HEART)---I could cite verse after verse...

...I could explain once again that some people choose Jesus, because of "free will", but others love sin and hate righteousness, again because of free will...

...but to what end? Would you, Mr. Mike, be swayed or convinced? No. I believe I have contended with you enough, I believe I have quoted Scripture to you enough. No man can be changed until he is READY to receive truth.

So, I desire to remain in good Christian fellowship with you, to "not engage in factions-disputes-and-dissentions", and the best I can do at this point, is pray for you. Which I do.

If each of us seek after God with all our hearts/minds/souls, we will FIND Him. He is a real God, a real person. He will guide each of us in the paths of righteousness. The day is coming, and soon, when the Perfect will be here; and "we will know fully even as we are fully known"---I do not believe one of us will be jeering and saying, "See, I TOLD you so", I believe one of us will have our arm on the other's shoulder, saying, "Don't sweat it---nobody's right on everything"...

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

mjwhite,
I accept your apology.

In my post 103, I answered you. Hereit is:
I Timothy 2:4
"Who desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

Again, you rip the verse out on context and assign your own meaning to it.. Paul is not making a statement of what God wills for every single human that ever lived.

>What is your Biblical backing for this? The context in which this verse resides doesn’t support this view.

Many have gone and died and went to hell already. Does God now will them to be saved?

>God willed/desired them to be saved before they died. They chose not to be saved.

If God willed that Judas be saved why did He write the Scripture that Judas [as the son of perdition] must be lost? See John 17:13.

>I don’t see what John 17:13 has to do with anything. It says:
“And now I am coming to you. I have told them many things while I was with them so they would be filled with my joy.

And while you are in John 17, read the prayer in context. Read how Jesus is NOT praying for the world in general [and specifically says that], but rather is only praying for believers. John 17:6-21.

>That’s right…in that prayer, Jesus is praying for those who currently believe in him and those who will later. He specifically says “I am not praying for the world”. But he is not saying “I have never prayed for the world, and I never will again”. He is saying “This prayer is for those who believe in me”. And why was this prayer just for those who believe in him? Because he is asking God to strengthen them and protect them and take care of them. It’s like when a Father prays specifically for the Lord to protect his own children. He knows them and loves them, and that’s why he asks God specifically to protect them. Does that mean that man doesn’t want God to protect other people’s children, also? No, not at all.

Also, it specifically says that God desires for all men to be saved. Does God change? The word tells us he does not, so that must mean that from beginning of time, God desires that all men will be saved, and that even to this day God desires that all men will be saved.

The question is: Does the ALL in 1Tim 2:4 mean everybody who ever will live or not.

>The answer is “Yes”. That’s what it says, and that’s what it means.

If God wants all people who ever lived to be saved then why does He:
Reveal this truth to some and not others? Mat 13, Mat 11, ICor 2 among other verses.

>Jesus was not hiding truth from sincere seekers, because those who were receptive to spiritual truth understood the illustrations. To others they were only stories without meaning. This allowed Jesus to give spiritual food to those who hungered for it while preventing his enemies from trapping him sooner than they might otherwise have done. We are responsible to use well what we have. When people reject Jesus, their hardness of heart drives away or renders useless even the little understanding they had.

If God wants all people who ever lived to be saved, then why does He not draw them ALL to Himself? John 6.

Are you referring to verse 44? If so, that verse says:

For people can’t come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead.

And it’s true. People won’t come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. That’s the witness of the Holy Spirit. But there are 2 things the passage does not say:

1)That the Father doesn’t attempt to draw everyone
2)That everyone the Father attempts to draw will come to Jesus

In fact, a few verse down, in verse 51, is another verse that supports the idea that Christ was offered for eevryone:

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; this bread is my flesh, offered so the world may live.”

If mercy and grace are freely given by God, AND we cannot earn our salvation but are dependent upun that mercy and grace, why doesn't God extend that mercy and grace to everyone who ever lived? Why does He save some and not others?

>The reason some are saved and others are not is not because God doesn’t offer them the opportunity. God offers the gift to everyone. People have free will and choose themselves whether to accept God’s gift or not. Perfect proof of the idea that people have free will and can decide for themselves whether to accept Christ is Revelation 3:20:

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him, and he with me.”

Notice the word “knock”. Christ doesn’t knock down the door…he doesn’t force anyone to accept him. we have to make the decision to open the door of our hearts to him.

Why does He have mercy on some and harden others? Romans 8

>Where does it say that in Romans 8? I read the chapter twice, and just don’t see it.

Do you think you earn God's mercy by faith? Why are we to boast only in the Cross of Christ?

>No, that is not earned. It is a free gift.

Is the difference between heaven and hell the cross or not?

>yes, and the empty tomb.

If not, what did Jesus do to save you that He didn't do for those in hell? Nothing? Then how is it He saved you?

>He died for all. That is his gift. I am saved because I accepted his gift. Others are not saved because they didn’t accept it. Go back to Rev 3:20, and look at the word “knock”.

If by His foreknowledge, God knew who would be saved and who would never be saved, and still went ahead and made the world, how does He desire the known-to-Him-to-be-lost-forever saved?

>God desires everyone to be saved. He knows that some will reject him, but that is not a choice he makes. They make that choice. We are not robots, programmed to eternal life or damnation.

And if God desired all to be saved, why does Jesus limit His prayer to just the elect? john 17

>I’ve answered this one above, so I’ll just paste the info here again. Jesus is praying for those who currently believe in him and those who will later. He specifically says “I am not praying for the world”. But he is not saying “I have never prayed for the world, and I never will again”. He is saying “This prayer is for those who believe in me”. And why was this prayer just for those who believe in him? Because he is asking God to strengthen them and protect them and take care of them. It’s like when a Father prays specifically for the Lord to protect his own children. He knows them and loves them, and that’s why he asks God specifically to protect them. Does that mean that man doesn’t want God to protect other people’s children, also? No, not at all.

Finally, the verse itself, 1Tim 2:4 cannot mean that God desires eveyman who ever lived to be saved. It is implied in that verse that these men are alive or yet to live. So therefore unless you wish to include those dead and in hell already, you have to put restrictions on the word ALL yourself. So we see that the verse is not meant to mean what you desire it to mean but something different.

>But, while the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the letter to Timothy, who had been sent to help lead the church at Ephesus, it was also intended as an example for all generations. The Holy Spirit didn’t intend it to be written only for that occasion. To use your logic, that it only applies to people of that time, you could also say that nothing in the book of 1 Tim is for any of us who didn’t live at that time. Therefore, we wouldn’t have to uphold 1 Tim 1:19, which says “Cling tightly to your faith in Christ, and always keep your conscience clear” , or 1 Tim 3:8, which says “In the same way, deacons must be people who are respected and have integrity. They must not be heavy drinkers and must not be greedy for money”, or 1 Tim 3:12, which says “A deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well", and so on and so on and so on...

Also, in the context of the verse, ALL men doesn't and shouldn't be read as every-man-who-ever-lived-or-will-live. The verses previous to this make that clear. Paul didn't expect his readers to actually pray for every individual, whether in a position of power, or not. But if you decide to interpret ALL MEN to mean every individual, that is what you think you should be doing. And not only doing, as in when you get the time, but as verse 1 tells us, FIRST OF ALL. When you get done praying individually for every single soul alive [individually] do you think millions more will be born? It is an impossible task.

>Right, it is an impossible task to pray for everyone by name. First off, you don’t know every individual’s name. Secondly, even if you did, you couldn’t possibly do it. However, you can pray “Lord, I pray that every man on earth would become saved”. That does the job just as well.

Since Paul is only speaking generally about all men,

>Still I say that is an assumption on your part – it is how you interpret that scripture. But you haven’t given me anything to make me believe in your interpretation.

The only way you can hold the line is to give up both the foreknowledge of God, and the truth that salvation is by faith in Christ. God made the world KNOWING many would be damned by Him [His foreknowledge]so it is inconsistent of Him to also desire their salvation knowing all the while that there is no way they would ever get saved. Likewise, God KNEW that million upon millions would never hear the gospel. He made the world anyhow. If faith in Jesus is needed for salvation, then He KNEW these millions, probally billions would never truly hear the gospel and die in their sins.

>It is not inconsistent. Just because he knows they will not be saved doesn’t mean he doesn’t want them to. His love is what makes him want them to be saved. Their free will is what allows them to choose not to be. God didn’t make that choice for them. Do you know that not all men will be saved? Yes. But does that mean you don’t want them to be saved? Be careful, because If you say you don’t want all men to be saved, you are saying that you want some to go to hell.

Your choice.
Read the Word and decide which is more important to you. God's foreknowledge and salvation by faith in Christ OR your interpretation of ALL MEN in 1Tim 2.

>Hey, my belief goes perfectly with 1 Tim 2:4. 1 Tim 2:4 undeniably states that is God’s desire that all mean be saved. It is you who must decide which is more important to you.

 

[mjwhite]

Dear all,

Ben replied to me...

quote:
Your silence on my other points is duly noted.
My silence is because you simply are not open to what the Bible says. So fixed are you in your position, that everything is filtered through your pre-conceived-theology. I could respond on the Romans 9 passage, and cite two different interpretations (Jacob-Esau as individuals, former faithful and latter not, thus the faithful receiving God's affection, the faithless not; AND/OR the concept of "Jacob-Esau" being archetypes, IE "Jacob-as-a-PEOPLE" {God's chosen} and "Esau-as-a-PEOPLE" {outside})...


My reply.

Well you could say just about anything.
As to your first interpretations.
But the Scripture says that: “Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad –in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by Him who calls-… just as it is written: ‘Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated.’”

Since when can one be faithful or unfaithful before they are born? In fact, the whole idea is that the election is based on God’s action [Him who calls] and not on man’s action [being faithful in good works].

That same concept also negates your second interp. If God chose Jacob’s people over Esau’s, He is still choosing somebody. It is still His choice. PEOPLE is a group comprised of individuals. The WHY Jacob-as-a-people is loved and Esau-as-a-people are hated is still by God’s choice as even you admit: OR the concept of "Jacob-Esau" being archetypes, IE "Jacob-as-a-PEOPLE" {God's chosen}

It is your argument that fails to recognize the truth. It is you who have boasted of Calvinists silence in other threads. It is you who is failing to answer my questions and failing to address my points. Are you any less ‘fixed’? In your mind I doubt it, but the truth is I am more fixed and I am glad of standing on the Word of God and boasting only in the Cross of Christ. Those firmly on the rock are more fixed than those with one foot in the sand.

Ben continues:
quote:
I have already answered this, but Ben has ducked my answer. But I will answer it again, Romans 10:9-10 tells us that it is only those who believe in the heart that are justified. Paul has already established this point prior to Romans 5:18. See Romans 3:21-28, which plainly teaches that men are justified by faith. Therefore in Romans 5:18, Paul sees no reason to re-establish that point again. Are all men justified by the cross of Christ, or only those with faith?
I could explain to you that Paul declares "Jesus died to provide "dikaiosis-justification" to "pas-anthropos-all-men-THE-WORLD", and everyone KNEW that justification is only accomplished through belief/faith/repentance, so PAUL understood it, the APOSTLES understood it and every READER of Rom5:18 understands it (so-why-would-Paul-spell-out-the-very-basics-in-every-single-scripture {if you could go back in TIME and ask this question to Paul, he would say, "Well, DUH, the justification is FOR all men and they are justified IF they BELIEVE/RECEIVE-JESUS"})...

My reply.
Do the Scriptures actually say that Jesus only provided justification? No!
You add to the Word in order to support your false doctrine. It says that one act of righteousness was justification that brings life to all men. Therefore since that act of righteousness actually brings life by that justification, it cannot mean that all men simply have a chance at being justified. Justification means one is justified. It is a reason, fact, or reason that justifies. Or an act that justifies, or the state of being justified.

His act on the cross [as the Scriptures plainly say] was that which brings justification. The question is does it bring it to ALL men like in everyone-who-ever-lived-lives-or-will live? Or is that ALL qualified to mean All who have faith? Universalism or by faith in Christ? But the question is not Did Jesus provide justification for those who would never believe. Justification [the act of justifying, or being justified] is only for believers. Only they have the life brought by the act of the Cross through justification.
Finally, you put your theology in Paul’s mouth [Paul, he would say, "Well, DUH, the justification is FOR all men and they are justified IF they BELIEVE/RECEIVE-JESUS”].It does not have his authority simply because you think Paul would agree with you. It is a simple assertion dressed up to look authoritative. The DUH is pejorative. So as to make anyone who might disagree with you look dumb. It is a poor substitute for a decent arguing of your position. But maybe it is the best you have.

Ben continues:
I could explain all that to you, I could go back and cite verse after verse after verse that speak of our "enduring/abiding/being-diligent-in-our-FELLOWSHIP", admonishing us to "not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin into falling away from the living God", to "understand that Jesus is our confidence which enters within the veil, so let us draw near with a tre heart in full asurance of hope, and hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for if WE continue sinning willfully after receiving TRUE knowledge of the truth, we expect only condemnation, beware how severe punishment for he who tramples underfoot the Son of God and regards as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified (as if we can be sanctified by His blood BUT NEVER HAVE BEEN SAVED), so therefore do not throw away your confidence (do not throw away JESUS from your HEART)---I could cite verse after verse...

...I could explain once again that some people choose Jesus, because of "free will", but others love sin and hate righteousness, again because of free will...

...but to what end? Would you, Mr. Mike, be swayed or convinced? No. I believe I have contended with you enough, I believe I have quoted Scripture to you enough. No man can be changed until he is READY to receive truth.

So, I desire to remain in good Christian fellowship with you, to "not engage in factions-disputes-and-dissentions", and the best I can do at this point, is pray for you. Which I do.

My reply.
Well that stringing together of scriptures has nothing do with our current debate. Some opposing me on this say they are OSAS even as I am and even as you say you are OSNAS. We are NOT debating eternal security here. So why are you avoiding what we are talking about and diverting the conversation to this other topic?

And I appreciate your desire to stay in fellowship with me and your intention to pray for me. You are under no compulsion to answer at all.

But I would like to point out an error in your thinking. Or a possible error anyhow. You seem to be boasting over and against those who go to hell by saying this: ...I could explain once again that some people choose Jesus, because of "free will", but others love sin and hate righteousness, again because of free will...
Well I would say people choose Jesus NOT because of free will, but with their free will. Free will in and of itself is not a reason to choose anything. But I will assume that is what you meant. If it is not please correct me, and explain why people choose Jesus because of free will. Does that mean those who don’t chose Jesus don’t have free will? I don’t think you think that. So assuming people choose Jesus for a different reason, it seems to me that you are implying that those who love sin less and righteousness more are the ones who choose Jesus. As you might remember you gave me a Scripture from Ezekiel to back that idea up. But you have never bothered to respond to my reply, but simply assert your belief. Asserting your opinion is certainly legal, but not conducive to swaying your opposition. Why haven’t you answered my reply?



Also, I think you are boasting in your own love of righteousness and hatred of sin as the reason you are saved and the others go to hell. First the Word tells us to boast only in the Cross of Christ, and the righteousness of Jesus. You boast of your own. Second, you still sin and therefore still deserve Hell. Only perfect righteousness can save which is why Christ died. Have you not been reading these Scriptures we have talked about? They speak of our righteousness through Christ not of ourselves. God didn’t save you because you loved God, you love God because he saved you.

Ben.

If each of us seek after God with all our hearts/minds/souls, we will FIND Him. He is a real God, a real person. He will guide each of us in the paths of righteousness.

Me.
Ben I agree that those who seek Him will find Him. But He doesn’t guide all in the path of righteousness. We seek Him because He draws us. The debate is who will come, who are the elect. You are not addressing my points or answering my questions on that subject.

Ben.
The day is coming, and soon, when the Perfect will be here; and "we will know fully even as we are fully known"---I do not believe one of us will be jeering and saying, "See, I TOLD you so", I believe one of us will have our arm on the other's shoulder, saying, "Don't sweat it---nobody's right on everything"...


Me.
If you have no desire to debate doctrine, or see it as less important task, then why are you here and why do you put so much time and effort into it? It is not about being ‘right on everything’, it is about the church helping each other to be proper witnesses of the truth, which includes knowing what that truth is.

In His love,
mike

 

[Ben johnson]

OK---let's "change course" slightly. If we are "predestined-elected", then the option for a truly saved person, to FALL from that salvation, cannot exist. If he was TRULY saved, then he was "OF THE ELECT"---and he CANNOT fall.

Please help me to understand how this view accomodates 2Pet2:20-22?

 

[mjwhite]

Dear all,

Ben asks,
OK---let's "change course" slightly. If we are "predestined-elected", then the option for a truly saved person, to FALL from that salvation, cannot exist. If he was TRULY saved, then he was "OF THE ELECT"---and he CANNOT fall.

Please help me to understand how this view accomodates 2Pet2:20-22?

I understand why you want to change course slightly. But that is not a slight change.

Let's review a few points.

According to Arminianism, God looks into the future with His foreknowledge and sees who will choose Him and predestines them to be the elect.

Nothing in the Arminianist position suggests that one cannot loose their salvation just because they were 'chosen' in this way.

It seems to me that the Arminianists are NOT saying that God elects a person because He sees them persevering BUT only if they make that born again choice to serve Him.

Now some OSAS will disagree with parts of that. So I think if you want to argue eternal security you should do it on another thread. As i have already told you, there are some who are debating me on this thread who are OSAS [for example, SlaveNoMore].

So I am sorry i will not accomodate you on that.

Why are you ducking the questions i ask about the Arminianist's beliefs of the predestined elect and its implications? Maybe you don't hold them the way in the same way you posted them. That is fine, then maybe some other Arminianist can defend their views.

Ben, does God foreknow the future? Does He foreknowledge? What does that doctrine mean to you?

In Him,
mike

 

[Ben johnson]

"For those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Rm8:29

"Foreknew"---"proginosko", know-before
"Predestined"---"proorizo", predestinate, decide beforehand

Those whom God foreknew, He predestined them to be Christlike.

"I ...entreat you to walk in the manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing forbearance to one another in love, with all diligence to preerve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ...There is one body... but some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some teachers, for the equipping of the saints, to the building up of the body of Christ (US), until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature man, to the measure and stature of the fulness of CHrist; so we are no longer to be children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming ("See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8); but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ..." Eph4

"Those whom He FOREKNEW, He predestined to be CHRISTLIKE". Two choices here:
&#149He predestined our salvation
&#149He knew-before, and founded upon our belief He predestined us to grow into Christ

BOTH cannot be true, only one is Scriptural---which one???

I understand why you want to change course slightly. But that is not a slight change.

But it is completely and totally, relevant. If it is GOD who elects us to salvation, then what of those in 2Pet2? Choose:

&#149They were NEVER-REALLY-SAVED-in-the-FIRST-PLACE (in their hearts remained pigs and dogs)
&#149They WERE saved, but were NOT God's elect, so they FELL from salvation
&#149They WERE saved, but never really FELL---even in their "entangled-state" God is still faithful, and they may "suffer loss as their works are burned up" but they absolutely WILL walk the streets of Heaven...
&#149This was a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION and does not apply to us...
&#149They were truly saved, and fell from salvation

Which? Choose one. Only five choices, no #6. This ties directly with "predestined-election"---if you cannot choose one, or will not choose one, then your position is compromised, your credibility damaged...

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
"For those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Rm8:29

"Foreknew"---"proginosko", know-before
"Predestined"---"proorizo", predestinate, decide beforehand

Those whom God foreknew, He predestined them to be Christlike.

"I ...entreat you to walk in the manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing forbearance to one another in love, with all diligence to preerve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ...There is one body... but some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some teachers, for the equipping of the saints, to the building up of the body of Christ (US), until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature man, to the measure and stature of the fulness of CHrist; so we are no longer to be children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming ("See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8); but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ..." Eph4

"Those whom He FOREKNEW, He predestined to be CHRISTLIKE". Two choices here:
&#149He predestined our salvation
&#149He knew-before, and founded upon our belief He predestined us to grow into Christ

BOTH cannot be true, only one is Scriptural---which one???
But it is completely and totally, relevant. If it is GOD who elects us to salvation, then what of those in 2Pet2? Choose:

&#149They were NEVER-REALLY-SAVED-in-the-FIRST-PLACE (in their hearts remained pigs and dogs)
&#149They WERE saved, but were NOT God's elect, so they FELL from salvation
&#149They WERE saved, but never really FELL---even in their "entangled-state" God is still faithful, and they may "suffer loss as their works are burned up" but they absolutely WILL walk the streets of Heaven...
&#149This was a DIFFERENT DISPENSATION and does not apply to us...
&#149They were truly saved, and fell from salvation

Which? Choose one. Only five choices, no #6. This ties directly with "predestined-election"---if you cannot choose one, or will not choose one, then your position is compromised, your credibility damaged...

Actually, you MIGHT want to start with an accurate translation.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; - Romans 8:29, NASB, emphasis mine

By the way, the Elect can NOT lose salvation; that is against the very essence of the doctrines that support Election, the Five Points.

 

[Ben johnson]

By the way, the Elect can NOT lose salvation; that is against the very essence of the doctrines that support Election, the Five Points.

This is exactly my point, HumbleJoe. James 5:19-20 is only one passage (of many) that seems to speak of "elect LOSING (forsaking) salvation". This is why I listed the 5 options, and the question of "which one does Scripture SUPPORT"? If we can demonstrate, Scripturally, that a Christian CAN become unsaved, then "predestined-election" cannot exist.

Which of the five "bulleted-interpretations" above, of James 5:19-20, was James intending to convey?

 

[Caedmon]

If I had to select one, I would choose "They were NEVER-REALLY-SAVED-in-the-FIRST-PLACE".

And to reiterate, Romans 8:29 of the New American Standard Bible version, as I stated above, groups and includes "foreknew" and "predestined" together through the word "also".

 

[Ben johnson]

Originally posted by humblejoe
If I had to select one, I would choose "They were NEVER-REALLY-SAVED-in-the-FIRST-PLACE".

And to reiterate, Romans 8:29 of the New American Standard Bible version, as I stated above, groups and includes "foreknew" and "predestined" together through the word "also".

Thank you for your honest answer, HumbleJoe. I don't find "also predestined" to be contrary to "He predestined them to be Christ-like on the PREMISE of THEIR faith/belief/surrender-to-Him". In Rom8:30, he continues: "Those whom He predestined (to be Christlike, not to salvation), He also called, those He also justified, those He also glorified". ("also" is "kai"--- and, also, even, both, then, so, likewise...) Now, it is valid to contend that "He calls EVERYONE (Pas Anthropos the WORLD)", verifiable with Scripture. And that He provides justification to PAS ANTHROPOS ALL MEN THE WORLD (Rm5:18), but there is the obvious underlying premise that man is only justifed and glorified if he believes (which is to say, "receives Jesus---as Savior and Lord). So the CALL is to ALL MEN, the JUSTIFICATION is to ALL MEN, the GLORIFICATION is to ALL MEN. But everywhere in Scripture is the conditional, "for all who believe". And THEY-WHO-BELIEVE, grow to CHRISTLIKENESS, because of the NATURE of THAT SAVING BELIEF. I find no contradiction...

Remember the end of the parable, is "For MANY are CALLED, but FEW are CHOSEN". The chosen, are they who received Him...

Now, I wasn't really getting anywhere in debating the other Scriptures about "election". They seem clear to me, but they seem equally clear otherwise to OSAS people like Mike. So I wished to change tack, and discuss passages such as 2Pet2. If we read in 2Pet1, he (Peter) offers: "To those who have received a faith as the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ; grace and peace be multiplied to you in the TRUE KNOWLEDGE (epignosis) of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust". THe wod for "escape" is "apophuego". We who are saved (of the same faith as Peter's), are "escaped the corruption in the world, through the TRUE KNOWLEDGED of the Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST".

OK, bookmark all of that, and now read chapter 2:

In verse 2:18, they are "ONTOS-APOPHUEGO" truly escaped. From what? From the "defilements of the world" (2:20). How? "By the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"! The same exact words as in chapter one.

How then, can these have "never been saved"? What is the difference between the "escapers" of chapter 2, and the "escapers" of chapter 1?

BUT---the "escapers" of chapter two are "again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome. The second state is worse than the first. Far better to have never KNOWN (epignosis variant) the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Unless I'm missing something here, those escapers in chapter 2, were just as saved as the escapers in chapter 1. BUT---those in chapter 2, fall from salvation. Am I wrong? Then help me to understand how...

 

[calvinist]

The Arminian point about election seems to be flawed because it centers on man. God does not need man to help his plan along. He is GOD! He has no needs. Why would a decision of man affect him? He is GOD! God is the most God centered person in the universe. He has no other gods before Himself.
Seeking Satisfaction in God,
Calvinist<><
"God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in HIM." -John Piper

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Calvinist! Welcome to the discussion. What do you think of it so far???

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

I have a question. Maybe this has been covered yet, but maybe not.

If God makes the decision for us, what's the point of missionaries? Why do so many go to dangerous places and get killed?

If God goes so far as to cause a person to choose him or deny him, why doesn't he just go ahead and zap that decision into their hearts - program them like robots before birth- so that people won't have to face hardship and death to get the truth to them? It would certainly be easier that way.

People who say God makes that decision for us, you might as well be saying we are programmed robots. It's the same thing, really.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore
I have a question. Maybe this has been covered yet, but maybe not.

If God makes the decision for us, what's the point of missionaries? Why do so many go to dangerous places and get killed?

Because God commands it. (Matthew 28:19)

If God goes so far as to cause a person to choose him or deny him, why doesn't he just go ahead and zap that decision into their hearts - program them like robots before birth- so that people won't have to face hardship and death to get the truth to them? It would certainly be easier that way. [/B

Why shouldn't He do it that way? God's thoughts and motivations are higher than ours. He works mysteriously. On top of that, He is Sovereign.

People who say God makes that decision for us, you might as well be saying we are programmed robots. It's the same thing, really.

No it's not. Robots can't love.

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by humblejoe

Because God commands it. (Matthew 28:19)
No it's not. Robots can't love.

Because God commands it doesn't it address the root of my question, so I will rephrase the question:

Why does God command missionaries to go to other countries to witness to people, when he could just as easily "zap" the knowledge of Himself into their hearts, since he's already going to go so far as to force them to accept him?

If God makes a decision for you whether you will choose him or not, he is programming that decision into you. If he makes that decision for you, then the love you feel for him isn't your decision, either. So that is also programmed. Programmed decision + programmed love = robot.

 

[Caedmon]

How should I know? God has His reasons, and He knows what He's doing. Why did God let Paul persecute and kill all those Christians before he converted him? Why does God let bad things happen at all?

 

[calvinist]

God is God and greatly to be praised. Amen? Amen! He is God and He is great, let no man or woman question His judgement. What seems fair to us is probably not God's fairness. We are evil and God is just. I trust God, and not man's principles. It starts with God and ends with God. Missions exist because worship doesn't. We carry the heart of worship to other people who God has chosen before the foundations of the earth. God may use us to let those who He has chosen realize it.
Seeking Satisfaction in God,
Calvinist<><
"God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in HIM." -John Piper

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

If God programs a man to make the decision to accept Christ, why wouldn't he have instead programmed the man to decide never to sin? Then the man would be sinless and Christ would not have had to suffer and die.