Originally posted by mjwhite
Now knowing Jesus as who He is not quite the same as hearing who He is. Knowing about Him and knowing Him are not the same. But knowing about Him means you trust those who tell you about Him. That is not the same as trusting Jesus. If Jesus is to be both the object of your faith and its foundation, you must know Him and trust Him. Therefore your salvation is based not on your own fickle will or some other mans idea but on Jesus Himself.
S2SNM says:
You just contradicted yourself! First, you said:
"you must know Him and trust Him."
Then you said:
"your salvation is based not on your own fickle will"
Which is it? Is the fact that I accept salvation based on my will or not? I must trust him to accept him, right? You have said earlier that it is not "forced" upon me, so it must be will that causes me to make the decision, right? It can't be the Holy Spirit living with in me that makes the decision to accept Christ, because as a nonChristian, I didn't have the Holy Spirit within me, so I had to make that decision myself. Which leads me to my next point:
You don't "know God" when you decide to accept him. You know "about" him and "of" him, but you don't know him. Only people with the Holy Spirit "know" God.
Originally posted by mjwhite
The post before you said you simply said that you knew about Jesus and now you say the Holy Spirit called you and wooed you. You are not playing fair here Slavenomore.
S2SNM says:
How is that "not playing fair"? I knew about Jesus because it was taught to me in Sunday School and church and other places. The wooing part was done by the Holy Spirit - He was calling me to accept him. But it's not just me He calls. He calls all. Some pay attention. Some don't.
Originally posted by mjwhite
Several things. Last first.
How do you know the Spirit calls and woos your neighbor? You dont, you simply make an assumption that He does. So we see that it just wasnt you knowing ABOUT Jesus, but God Himself calling and wooing and convincing you of Jesus. You knew that you werent okay without Jesus [as your neighbor thinks he is okay on his own] Why did you think different? Because you had the witness of God in your heart telling you that as a sinner and rebel against God you were lost and damned without Jesus. How did you KNOW you were weak and He was strong? Because the Holy Spirit opened the eyes of your heart to the spiritual reality of your lost position. It is not a boast on yourself to give the glory and honor of your salvation to God. That is what you are doing in that paragraph. God wooed you. God called you. And though you do not say it explicitly, God showed you your lostness, your weakness, your need for Him, and His provision for you at the cross of Christ. You knew all these things as true and you confessed them and were saved. What I am saying is, seeing how you and I are no better, nor more spiritual, nor more righteous than your neighbor, that the reason we got saved is because God wooed us and convinced us of our need and His provision. He didnt force us, but persuaded us by opening our eyes to the truth. Seeing our lostness we willfully chose to serve Him. Our neighbor who is no worse a person than we are, has not had what we had and so thinks he does not need Christ. To him, the gospel, the words of the cross are foolishness, but to us, they are the power of God unto salvation.
S2SNM says:
Well, you asked me how do I know the Holy Spirit has been talking to (wooing) my neighbor. Well, of course, I can't say 100% that the Holy Spirit has been talking to my neighbor. It's funny, because you go on to say that our neighbor "has not had what we had", which is to say that the Holy Spirit has not been talking to my neighbor. So, I turn the table around, and ask the same question of you: How do you know he hasn't been talking to my neighbor? You don't. You can't.
But you know what? I know that if the Holy Spirit has never talked to (wooed) my neighbor yet, he will at some point in the future. How do I know that? Because Paul tells us that at the judgment, no man will have an excuse. If a man can say "I was never told", he has an excuse. We as Christians have the Holy Spirit, and if we walk in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit talks through us. If a "walking in the Spirit" Christian tells my neighbor about Jesus, that's the Holy Spirit talking to and wooing my neighbor. If he doesn't accept, that's his fault, not the Lord's. But, he was given the opportunity, and the Holy Spirit did indeed cll to him.
Now don't get Ben and I wrong. We are not saying that we earn our own salvation in any form or fashion. We are saying that we have to make the decision to accept it.
Now knowing Jesus as who He is not quite the same as hearing who He is. Knowing about Him and knowing Him are not the same. But knowing about Him means you trust those who tell you about Him. That is not the same as trusting Jesus. If Jesus is to be both the object of your faith and its foundation, you must know Him and trust Him. Therefore your salvation is based not on your own fickle will or some other mans idea but on Jesus Himself.
S2SNM says:
You just contradicted yourself! First, you said:
"you must know Him and trust Him."
Then you said:
"your salvation is based not on your own fickle will"
Which is it? Is the fact that I accept salvation based on my will or not? I must trust him to accept him, right? You have said earlier that it is not "forced" upon me, so it must be will that causes me to make the decision, right? It can't be the Holy Spirit living with in me that makes the decision to accept Christ, because as a nonChristian, I didn't have the Holy Spirit within me, so I had to make that decision myself. Which leads me to my next point:
You don't "know God" when you decide to accept him. You know "about" him and "of" him, but you don't know him. Only people with the Holy Spirit "know" God.
Originally posted by mjwhite
The post before you said you simply said that you knew about Jesus and now you say the Holy Spirit called you and wooed you. You are not playing fair here Slavenomore.
S2SNM says:
How is that "not playing fair"? I knew about Jesus because it was taught to me in Sunday School and church and other places. The wooing part was done by the Holy Spirit - He was calling me to accept him. But it's not just me He calls. He calls all. Some pay attention. Some don't.
Originally posted by mjwhite
Several things. Last first.
How do you know the Spirit calls and woos your neighbor? You dont, you simply make an assumption that He does. So we see that it just wasnt you knowing ABOUT Jesus, but God Himself calling and wooing and convincing you of Jesus. You knew that you werent okay without Jesus [as your neighbor thinks he is okay on his own] Why did you think different? Because you had the witness of God in your heart telling you that as a sinner and rebel against God you were lost and damned without Jesus. How did you KNOW you were weak and He was strong? Because the Holy Spirit opened the eyes of your heart to the spiritual reality of your lost position. It is not a boast on yourself to give the glory and honor of your salvation to God. That is what you are doing in that paragraph. God wooed you. God called you. And though you do not say it explicitly, God showed you your lostness, your weakness, your need for Him, and His provision for you at the cross of Christ. You knew all these things as true and you confessed them and were saved. What I am saying is, seeing how you and I are no better, nor more spiritual, nor more righteous than your neighbor, that the reason we got saved is because God wooed us and convinced us of our need and His provision. He didnt force us, but persuaded us by opening our eyes to the truth. Seeing our lostness we willfully chose to serve Him. Our neighbor who is no worse a person than we are, has not had what we had and so thinks he does not need Christ. To him, the gospel, the words of the cross are foolishness, but to us, they are the power of God unto salvation.
S2SNM says:
Well, you asked me how do I know the Holy Spirit has been talking to (wooing) my neighbor. Well, of course, I can't say 100% that the Holy Spirit has been talking to my neighbor. It's funny, because you go on to say that our neighbor "has not had what we had", which is to say that the Holy Spirit has not been talking to my neighbor. So, I turn the table around, and ask the same question of you: How do you know he hasn't been talking to my neighbor? You don't. You can't.
But you know what? I know that if the Holy Spirit has never talked to (wooed) my neighbor yet, he will at some point in the future. How do I know that? Because Paul tells us that at the judgment, no man will have an excuse. If a man can say "I was never told", he has an excuse. We as Christians have the Holy Spirit, and if we walk in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit talks through us. If a "walking in the Spirit" Christian tells my neighbor about Jesus, that's the Holy Spirit talking to and wooing my neighbor. If he doesn't accept, that's his fault, not the Lord's. But, he was given the opportunity, and the Holy Spirit did indeed cll to him.
Now don't get Ben and I wrong. We are not saying that we earn our own salvation in any form or fashion. We are saying that we have to make the decision to accept it.
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