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Two quick articles on human evolution:

Strathos

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No, no, no. We are confident that such evidence does not exist because not even the most ardent of believers cannot find any. All of the evidence presented is of the same sort that they themselves reject when presented to them by believers in other religions.

I could give you some right now but you would reject it. And I don't mean anecdotal evidence either.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I could give you some right now but you would reject it. And I don't mean anecdotal evidence either.
You could give evidence and explain how you think that it is reliable. Odds are that I could explain how it is not. Judging others unfairly is not very Christian.

And to head things off let's not bring up the failed prophecies of the Bible. Those that use that argument do not understand how they are not applying reason consistently. For the same reasons that they reject the prophesies of other religions they need to reject the prophesies of their own.
 
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Strathos

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You could give evidence and explain how you think that it is reliable. Odds are that I could explain how it is not. Judging others unfairly is not very Christian.

And to head things off let's not bring up the failed prophecies of the Bible. Those that use that argument do not understand how they are not applying reason consistently. For the same reasons that they reject the prophesies of other religions they need to reject the prophesies of their own.

I wasn't going to mention prophecy (although I know that's another thing you'd dismiss), but rather the fact that scientists have been searching and never found any life anywhere other than earth. No alien signals, no extraterrestrial spacecraft, not even a fossilized microbe. Doesn't that suggest that there is something special about earth?

Sure, this isn't proof of God, but it is evidence.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I wasn't going to mention prophecy (although I know that's another thing you'd dismiss), but rather the fact that scientists have been searching and never found any life anywhere other than earth. No alien signals, no extraterrestrial spacecraft, not even a fossilized microbe. Doesn't that suggest that there is something special about earth?

Sure, this isn't proof of God, but it is evidence.
Please, don't use the prejudicial term "dismiss". I could demonstrate how and why it fails. I don't just dismiss out of hand. You are making unjust accusations again.

How is not finding life elsewhere evidence for God? That seriously makes no sense at all. In fact how would we even detect life elsewhere? The minute amount of radio noise from the Earth would be lost in the background noise from the Sun in interstellar distances. And why would you expect interstellar travel? Do you know the incredible difficulties that there are to that. I loved science fiction when I was younger, and still enjoy it. But traveling through space from one solar system to another meets apparently insurmountable problems. It may be possible, but no one is even close in proposing a way to do this.
 
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Strathos

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Please, don't use the prejudicial term "dismiss". I could demonstrate how and why it fails. I don't just dismiss out of hand. You are making unjust accusations again.

So you say, but then right afterwards...

How is not finding life elsewhere evidence for God? That seriously makes no sense at all. In fact how would we even detect life elsewhere? The minute amount of radio noise from the Earth would be lost in the background noise from the Sun in interstellar distances. And why would you expect interstellar travel? Do you know the incredible difficulties that there are to that. I loved science fiction when I was younger, and still enjoy it. But traveling through space from one solar system to another meets apparently insurmountable problems. It may be possible, but no one is even close in proposing a way to do this.

You dismiss it.

Hypothesis: God created life on earth with the goal of creating human beings to receive His Gospel. No extraterrestrial life is mentioned as part of this plan. Therefore, either extraterrestrial life doesn't exist, or it's so far away in space or time that we don't ever have to worry about encountering it.

The experimental observations match the hypothesis.
 
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Subduction Zone

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So you say, but then right afterwards...



You dismiss it.

Hypothesis: God created life on earth with the goal of creating human beings to receive His Gospel. No extraterrestrial life is mentioned as part of this plan. Therefore, either extraterrestrial life doesn't exist, or it's so far away in space or time that we don't ever have to worry about encountering it.

The experimental observations match the hypothesis.
That is because it is not evidence for God. In fact I could claim "that is evidence against God" since God would not be wasteful and yet we do not see life elsewhere. That is an example of you assuming something about God, that life is only on Earth, which is not supported by the Bible, and saying that we cannot find life elsewhere is evidence of this.

First you have to see if one would actually expect to find evidence for other intelligent beings and unless those other intelligent beings were much more intelligent than we are and wanted to be seen there is little reason to expect to see that evidence. You have not sufficiently researched your supposed evidence.

I tried to explain why it is not evidence but you dismissed the explanation. Ironic how you appear to be doing what you accuse others of. Let's try to discuss what evidence that you think you have without making accusations on either side.


And you did not form a proper hypothesis. You need a reasonable test that could refute it based upon its own merits. Not based on some strawman from what we already observe. A hypothesis can be shaped to fit present observations, but then you cannot use those present observations as a test. It becomes circular reasoning if one does so.
 
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Strathos

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That is because it is not evidence for God. In fact I could claim "that is evidence against God" since God would not be wasteful and yet we do not see life elsewhere. That is an example of you assuming something about God, that life is only on Earth, which is not supported by the Bible, and saying that we cannot find life elsewhere is evidence of this.

First you have to see if one would actually expect to find evidence for other intelligent beings and unless those other intelligent beings were much more intelligent than we are and wanted to be seen there is little reason to expect to see that evidence. You have not sufficiently researched your supposed evidence.

I tried to explain why it is not evidence but you dismissed the explanation. Ironic how you appear to be doing what you accuse others of. Let's try to discuss what evidence that you think you have without making accusations on either side.


And you did not form a proper hypothesis. You need a reasonable test that could refute it based upon its own merits. Not based on some strawman from what we already observe. A hypothesis can be shaped to fit present observations, but then you cannot use those present observations as a test. It becomes circular reasoning if one does so.

It was predicted long before we explored the solar system and found it empty. Here, I'll extend it: I predict that no matter how far we explore in space, we won't find intelligent life in the future. My hypothesis would be falsified if we find any.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It was predicted long before we explored the solar system and found it empty. Here, I'll extend it: I predict that no matter how far we explore in space, we won't find intelligent life in the future. My hypothesis would be falsified if we find any.

But it is not a reasonable test because you cannot think of any possible way of testing it even in the future. And worse yet if your hypothesis was falsified it would only falsify your version of God. It would not refute the existence of God. As a result it is still not evidence for God at all. At best one could say is:

If a God exists this is a test for a version of God.
 
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Strathos

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But it is not a reasonable test because you cannot think of any possible way of testing it even in the future. And worse yet if your hypothesis was falsified it would only falsify your version of God. It would not refute the existence of God. As a result it is still not evidence for God at all. At best one could say is:

If a God exists this is a test for a version of God.

Yes, it's a test for one of the properties of God implied in the Bible.
 
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Speedwell

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Yes, it's a test for one of the properties of God implied in the Bible.
And what if God doesn't have that property which you attribute to Him?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Yes, it's a test for one of the properties of God implied in the Bible.
i don't see that anywhere in the Bible. It at best is a test for a property of your version of God. It is not evidence for or against a god or even the God of the Bible.
 
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Subduction Zone

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And what if God doesn't have that property which you attribute to Him?

i should have commented that he appears to be making the same error that creationists make when they claim evolution is an attempt to disprove God. One's own version of God is not the only possible one.
 
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Paul James

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So you aren't here to discuss, you're here to proselytize?

Thanks, but I'm not interested in listening to ads for Christianity if it's just going to be the same claims I've found flaws in before.
Where have I tried to convert you to Christianity? I can't convert anyone. But my friend spent two whole days discussing the issues and got abused and insulted for his trouble, and I am not going to subject myself to the same. He is more knowledgeable about these things than me and if he couldn't have an amicable and respectful discussion no matter how hard he tried and was accused of being a troll, then I am not getting into the same trap, thank you very much.

Anyhow, I read the forum rules, and preaching Christianity is not permitted here in the same way that preaching atheism is not permitted on the Christian only forums.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Where have I tried to convert you to Christianity? I can't convert anyone. But my friend spent two whole days discussing the issues and got abused and insulted for his trouble, and I am not going to subject myself to the same. He is more knowledgeable about these things than me and if he couldn't have an amicable and respectful discussion no matter how hard he tried and was accused of being a troll, then I am not getting into the same trap, thank you very much.

Anyhow, I read the forum rules, and preaching Christianity is not permitted here in the same way that preaching atheism is not permitted on the Christian only forums.

And Christianity should not be part of an evolution debate since the fact of evolution does not refute the Christian faith. It only refutes an excessively literal interpretation of Genesis.
 
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Speedwell

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Where have I tried to convert you to Christianity? I can't convert anyone. But my friend spent two whole days discussing the issues and got abused and insulted for his trouble, and I am not going to subject myself to the same. He is more knowledgeable about these things than me and if he couldn't have an amicable and respectful discussion no matter how hard he tried and was accused of being a troll, then I am not getting into the same trap, thank you very much.

Anyhow, I read the forum rules, and preaching Christianity is not permitted here in the same way that preaching atheism is not permitted on the Christian only forums.
Non-Christians are not even allowed to post in the "Christians only" forums. But at least part of the heat that creationists feel here comes from the gratuitous assumption many of them make that participants who are not creationists must be atheists, or that evolution=atheism or denies the existence of God or the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, etc..
 
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Paul James

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Non-Christians are not even allowed to post in the "Christians only" forums. But at least part of the heat that creationists feel here comes from the gratuitous assumption many of them make that participants who are not creationists must be atheists, or that evolution=atheism or denies the existence of God or the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, etc..
I am quite happy to continue discussing the pros and cons of creation and evolution as long as the discussion remains a discussion and does not develop into an argument that ends up in accusation, flaming, and attacks on my intelligence. I have been around too long to put up with that sort of thing.
 
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Kylie

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The problem is allowing atheists to define what 'reliable' and 'rational' mean. They've already decided that such evidence doesn't exist, so they will obviously exclude any presented from those categories.

Reliable - something which gives consistent results, we can anticipate certain results based on past performance.

rational - logically sound, free from logical fallacies, based on the available evidence and not requiring assumptions for which there is no basis.

Do you think these are poor definitions to work with, or are they good for you? If you disagree, would you care to provide alternatives definitions?
 
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Subduction Zone

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I am quite happy to continue discussing the pros and cons of creation and evolution as long as the discussion remains a discussion and does not develop into an argument that ends up in accusation, flaming, and attacks on my intelligence. I have been around too long to put up with that sort of thing.
That sounds reasonable. But if you make gross errors that tell us that you need some work on your understanding you should not be too sensitive if those errors are pointed out to you.
 
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Kylie

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Where have I tried to convert you to Christianity? I can't convert anyone. But my friend spent two whole days discussing the issues and got abused and insulted for his trouble, and I am not going to subject myself to the same. He is more knowledgeable about these things than me and if he couldn't have an amicable and respectful discussion no matter how hard he tried and was accused of being a troll, then I am not getting into the same trap, thank you very much.

Anyhow, I read the forum rules, and preaching Christianity is not permitted here in the same way that preaching atheism is not permitted on the Christian only forums.

Well, when someone tells me that they don't want a discussion, they just run in, say what they believe and then run out, it feels like being spammed with advertising. And advertising is just an attempt to convert you to using a particular product.

So, if you want to have a discussion, then have a discussion. I've already made it as clear as possible that if you can actually present me with valid evidence and that evidence withstands investigation, then I'll change my position. So the ball's in your court now.
 
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