Two Questions for Provisionists

[SouthWestConvert]

I recently had a conversation with someone explaining the Provisionist mode of salvation. They said that 'God chooses those that choose Him'. I was brought up more Calvinistically, but I have thought about it since, and I have two questions;

1) Was the Apostle Paul chosen or did he choose to be saved?

2) Was he forced or was he drawn to believe?

I thought of Acts 9:15 'But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:'

The way I see it, by this method, God 'chooses' as a result of man's choice. For this to fit Paul's testimony, Paul would need to have accepted by his own choice before he was chosen, but I do not see this Biblically. If you are a Provisionist, how would you answer these two questions? Please explain this to me.

Thank you.

 

[BobRyan]

I recently had a conversation with someone explaining the Provisionist mode of salvation. They said that 'God chooses those that choose Him'. I was brought up more Calvinistically, but I have thought about it since, and I have two questions;

1) Was the Apostle Paul chosen or did he choose to be saved?

2) Was he forced or was he drawn to believe?

all mankind is drawn.

John 12:32 "if I be lifted up I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" -- but not all choose to accept.

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock. If anyone HEARS My voice and OPENS the door - I WILL come in"

Paul was awakened but had to choose to follow. God said He would "show Paul" all that he would have to suffer for Christ's sake. Paul had to choose.

I thought of Acts 9:15 'But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:'

Indeed God's OWN.

John 1:11 "HE came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

The way I see it, by this method, God 'chooses' as a result of man's choice. For this to fit Paul's testimony, Paul would need to have accepted by his own choice before he was chosen

Paul is chosen by God - but has to agree to follow or else like Israel in John 1:11 "His OWN received Him not"

, but I do not see this Biblically. If you are a Provisionist, how would you answer these two questions? Please explain this to me.

Thank you.

Warnings Like John 15:1-9 and Rom 11:19-24 don't appear to work at all in a Calvinist model

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I recently had a conversation with someone explaining the Provisionist mode of salvation. They said that 'God chooses those that choose Him'. I was brought up more Calvinistically, but I have thought about it since, and I have two questions;

1) Was the Apostle Paul chosen or did he choose to be saved?

2) Was he forced or was he drawn to believe?

I thought of Acts 9:15 'But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:'

The way I see it, by this method, God 'chooses' as a result of man's choice. For this to fit Paul's testimony, Paul would need to have accepted by his own choice before he was chosen, but I do not see this Biblically. If you are a Provisionist, how would you answer these two questions? Please explain this to me.

Thank you.

I don't know what a "Provisionist" is. Actually, I have never heard the term. But my favorite verse on God's decision-making on who He will save is this...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

 

[fhansen]

I recently had a conversation with someone explaining the Provisionist mode of salvation. They said that 'God chooses those that choose Him'. I was brought up more Calvinistically, but I have thought about it since, and I have two questions;

1) Was the Apostle Paul chosen or did he choose to be saved?

2) Was he forced or was he drawn to believe?

I thought of Acts 9:15 'But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:'

The way I see it, by this method, God 'chooses' as a result of man's choice. For this to fit Paul's testimony, Paul would need to have accepted by his own choice before he was chosen, but I do not see this Biblically. If you are a Provisionist, how would you answer these two questions? Please explain this to me.

Thank you.

It's both/and-we can't be saved apart from grace, apart from God's initiative and movement first, and yet we must respond-and we can say "no". And in Paul's case, and in the case of some of the other apostles as well as many subsequent believers down through the centuries, they were particularly blest, particularly graced beyond the norm for a particular purpose of God's, but always related to establishing and expanding His kingdom for the good of us all.

 

[jmldn2]

God calls, HS convicts, individuals choose.

 

[9Rock9]

I don't know what a "Provisionist" is. Actually, I have never heard the term. But my favorite verse on God's decision-making on who He will save is this...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

Provisionism is your standard Southern Baptist view of soteriology. It sits between Calvinism and Armininianism.

They reject both effectual calling and prevenient grace, since reading the Bible or hearing the preaching of the gospel are sufficient for man to be drawn to God.

They also understand election to be corporate rather an individual. Thus, the elect is the Church, and anyone who is in the Church is elect. Predestination in this sense refers to what God has decreed about matters such as who can be saved (those in the Church) and how (repent and be baptized) rather than a supernatural lottery that it's portrayed as in Calvinism.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ah, that’s a lot like Eastern/Oriental Orthodox soteriology and the Patristic soteriology of the early Church.

Baptists are closer to us than either of us realize.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Provisionism is your standard Southern Baptist view of soteriology. It sits between Calvinism and Armininianism.

They reject both effectual calling and prevenient grace, since reading the Bible or hearing the preaching of the gospel are sufficient for man to be drawn to God.

They also understand election to be corporate rather an individual. Thus, the elect is the Church, and anyone who is in the Church is elect. Predestination in this sense refers to what God has decreed about matters such as who can be saved (those in the Church) and how (repent and be baptized) rather than a supernatural lottery that it's portrayed as in Calvinism.

I didn't know the terms, effectual calling and prevenient grace, so I looked them up. The first is apparently associated with Calvinism and is basically an irresistable call. The second is attributed to Augustine and has been adopted by Catholic churches and is basically grace that enables spiritually dead people to choose to accept Christ and follow Him. Being a Southern Baptist, both of these sound wrong to me. I didn't see anything in my (very brief) research that ties either of these to Arminian theology. What part of Arminian theology do Southern Baptists distance themselves from?

 

[The Liturgist]

I didn't know the terms, effectual calling and prevenient grace, so I looked them up. The first is apparently associated with Calvinism and is basically an irresistable call. The second is attributed to Augustine and has been adopted by Catholic churches and is basically grace that enables spiritually dead people to choose to accept Christ and follow Him. Being a Southern Baptist, both of these sound wrong to me. I didn't see anything in my (very brief) research that ties either of these to Arminian theology. What part of Arminian theology do Southern Baptists distance themselves from?

How do you define being spiritually dead? Can the spiritually dead be resurrected in your view?

 

[BobRyan]

What part of Arminian theology do Southern Baptists distance themselves from?

The Arminian view is that free will is the dominant feature for salvation that God supernaturally enables such that humans can choose to accept or reject the gospel and that having accepted the Gospel they can also at any time choose against it , and become lost again.

Southern Baptist by contrast typically believe in "once saved always saved".

So for some of the them, that means that if you turn away from Christ ten years from today, you were never saved to start with.

 

[BobRyan]

I recently had a conversation with someone explaining the Provisionist mode of salvation. They said that 'God chooses those that choose Him'. I was brought up more Calvinistically, but I have thought about it since, and I have two questions;

1) Was the Apostle Paul chosen or did he choose to be saved?

2) Was he forced or was he drawn to believe?

I thought of Acts 9:15 'But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:'

The way I see it, by this method, God 'chooses' as a result of man's choice. For this to fit Paul's testimony, Paul would need to have accepted by his own choice before he was chosen, but I do not see this Biblically. If you are a Provisionist, how would you answer these two questions? Please explain this to me.

Thank you.

Adventists could be viewed as "Provisionist".

Ask AI "Is Adventist soteriology provisionist?", it will tell you that it is.

The answer to 1 is "Both".

John 1:11-12
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

God knows everything past present and future. Yet His model is "whowever will may come". Notice in Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door, I will come in..."

It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit to "Draw all mankind unto God" John 12:32. That is the supernatural work of God.

That supernatural drawing "is sufficient" to supernaturally enable choice for all mankind.

But the choice to "open the door" is still left with the human.

=========

So then Paul was drawn, not forced , to be saved.

Saul before he became Paul, did not wake up one day and say "Hey what do you know, I am saved.. well I guess I will choose to accept the Gospel since I am saved".