two problems with Calvinism that make no sense

[dogs4thewin]

1. I KNOW we can CHOOSE to disobey God because I have and I have not WANTED His love even knowing He loves me. I DID NOT WANT it He does not force it on us.
Secondly, it does not make sense Christians are bunched together. In other words there are families that are Christians and some that are not so it would seem that He changes direction.

 

[Anoetos]

The unregenerate does indeed choose to disobey and hate and reject God because that is what his heart does, given it's nature as fallen and dead in trespasses and sins. The bible describes the reprobate as being at enmity with God. Enmity means in a state of active rebellion and hatred.

New creatures in Christ, having been born again and having received new hearts, do choose to believe and trust and love God.

But all of this is secondary to God's attitude toward us. The Good Shepherd calls and His sheep hear His voice and they come to Him. So, if you did not want to believe this is because you had not yet been called and regenerated, if you did, it is because you had been called and regenerated.

As for families being Christian, there is very little to say except that we cannot really judge whether any other person is a believer, we can only see their works and it is reasonable to expect that children of covenant families would evince lawful behavior.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The unregenerate does indeed choose to disobey and hate and reject God because that is what his heart does, given it's nature as fallen and dead in trespasses and sins. The bible describes the reprobate as being at enmity with God. Enmity means in a state of active rebellion and hatred.

New creatures in Christ, having been born again and having received new hearts, do choose to believe and trust and love God.

But all of this is secondary to God's attitude toward us. The Good Shepherd calls and His sheep hear His voice and they come to Him. So, if you did not want to believe this is because you had not yet been called and regenerated, if you did, it is because you had been called and regenerated.

As for families being Christian, there is very little to say except that we cannot really judge whether any other person is a believer, we can only see their works and it is reasonable to expect that children of covenant families would evince lawful behavior.

so God makes us do things then?

 

[Anoetos]

so God makes us do things then?

Not sure what you're asking.

God changes our hearts.

Calvinism does not teach that people have no will. We say (with the Bible) that our wills are bound to our nature; we are slaves either to sin or to righteousness and we choose accordingly.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Not sure what you're asking.

God changes our hearts.

Calvinism does not teach that people have no will. We say (with the Bible) that our wills are bound to our nature; we are slaves either to sin or to righteousness and we choose accordingly.

But it would seem to me that by that Non-Christians would ALWAYS sin and Christians would NEVER sin. I get the part that God saves us and we cannot save ourselves though.

 

[Anoetos]

But it would seem to me that by that Non-Christians would ALWAYS sin and Christians would NEVER sin. I get the part that God saves us and we cannot save ourselves though.

The Bible tells us that before we were born again all our good deeds were as filthy rags. The good deeds of the reprobate stand to their condemnation since they attest to the knowledge of God and His Law written on their hearts. They sometimes do good, but their rejection of and enmity with God mean that these deeds are worse than meaningless, they are sinful.

Hot coals.

On the other hand, while we are in this life, the redeemed struggle toward Christlikeness. We still have the old man to contend with though now we are empowered from within by the Holy Spirit within us.

Later in Romans, Paul talks about this too.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The Bible tells us that before we were born again all our good deeds were as filthy rags. The good deeds of the reprobate stand to their condemnation since they attest to the knowledge of God and His Law written on their hearts. They sometimes do good, but their rejection of and enmity with God mean that these deeds are worse than meaningless, they are sinful.

Hot coals.

On the other hand, while we are in this life, the redeemed struggle toward Christlikeness. We still have the old man to contend with though now we are empowered from within by the Holy Spirit within us.

Later in Romans, Paul talks about this too.

so it depends on how one defines good. If it is defined as simply helping others treating our body right ECT then anyone can do it.

 

[Anoetos]

so it depends on how one defines good. If it is defined as simply helping others treating our body right ECT then anyone can do it.

But God's standard is higher than that, it is nothing less than perfect holiness and goodness and righteousness and love.

Still, "good deeds" done by those who have not been born again attest to the goodness of the Law, but the heart that did them is filthy and dead. Such deeds are filthy rags, sinful.

 

[dogs4thewin]

But God's standard is higher than that, it is nothing less than perfect holiness and goodness and righteousness and love.

Still, "good deeds" done by those who have not been born again attest to the goodness of the Law, but the heart that did them is filthy and dead. Such deeds are filthy rags, sinful.

I know, but what I was saying is if you ONLY define good by what the dictionary says then anyone can do it. I did not mention God's standard.

 

[Anoetos]

I know, but what I was saying is if you ONLY define good by what the dictionary says then anyone can do it. I did not mention God's standard.

Ok.

So?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Ok.

So?

so rather Non-Christians can do good depends on if you define it by God's standards or human standards? You see I believe that God saves us, but only if we want saving.

 

[Anoetos]

so rather Non-Christians can do good depends on if you define it by God's standards or human standards? You see I believe that God saves us, but only if we want saving.

And I don't understand how you are making that connection.

 

[dogs4thewin]

And I don't understand how you are making that connection.

In other words I DO believe ( like Calvinists) that we cannot save ourselves, BUT I believe that God offers the same grace to everyone for us to accept or reject.

 

[Don Maurer]

In other words I DO believe ( like Calvinists) that we cannot save ourselves, BUT I believe that God offers the same grace to everyone for us to accept or reject.

I hope its OK for me to jump in.

Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists can say that "God offers the same grace to everyone." That is why Calvinists believe we should evangelize all men.

Of course what is intended by the words "God offers grace to all men" can mean different things to the Calvinists and the non-Calvinist. Frequently we talk past each other using the same words but attaching different meanings.
---- The Calvinist is talking only about evangelism.
---- Some non-Calvinists are saying that God does not merely offer grace, but gives a non-effectual grace to all men. This non-effectual grace is a hypothetical possibility of salvation for all mankind everywhere, and does not actually save anyone.

In my opinion, the differences are quite significant. Calvinists view the sacrifice of Christ's blood as perfect and includes the gift of faith by regeneration. The non-Calvinist views the sacrifice of Christ as imperfect in that it does not include the activating agent of a persons faith. Faith is the human requirement for justification, but the Calvinists sees that as supplied in the atonement or shed blood of Christ.

 

[Anoetos]

In other words I DO believe ( like Calvinists) that we cannot save ourselves, BUT I believe that God offers the same grace to everyone for us to accept or reject.

And we would say that the person who has not been called and born again will not accept it.

 

[twin1954]

1. I KNOW we can CHOOSE to disobey God because I have and I have not WANTED His love even knowing He loves me. I DID NOT WANT it He does not force it on us.
Secondly, it does not make sense Christians are bunched together. In other words there are families that are Christians and some that are not so it would seem that He changes direction.

How did you know He loves you?

In all honesty if you had any true knowledge of God or His salvation in Christ you would make such statements.

 

[Thisismybody]

The real problem is that Calvin was trying to make a statement about God's plan that is beyond his authority. He's basing his conclusions on scripture, but scripture is not the sole authority. The Church was given authority by the Holy Spirit, not by scripture. the Church has authority over scripture. It's when scripture is used outside of the Church's boundaries that we see the breaking down and multiplication of doctrine. The Reformation and it's effects are a testimony to this.

 

[Skala]

In other words I DO believe ( like Calvinists) that we cannot save ourselves, BUT I believe that God offers the same grace to everyone for us to accept or reject.

The problem with God merely offering salvation to everyone is it would guarantee that everyone end up in hell.

If our hearts aren't' changed by amazing, regenerating grace, we'd gladly reject the gospel and land in hell.

God does more than merely offer to save us...he actually saves us, by changing our hearts so that we are willing to embrace the Christ that we formerly hated.

Anytime I hear someone argue that God merely 'offers' to save people or merely makes it 'possible' for them to be saved, what they are really arguing for is the guarantee that every single person end up in hell. Because as a Bible believer I can't just ignore the teachings in the Bible about fallen man's attitude towards God.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The problem with God merely offering salvation to everyone is it would guarantee that everyone end up in hell.

If our hearts aren't' changed by amazing, regenerating grace, we'd gladly reject the gospel and land in hell.

God does more than merely offer to save us...he actually saves us, by changing our hearts so that we are willing to embrace the Christ that we formerly hated.

Anytime I hear someone argue that God merely 'offers' to save people or merely makes it 'possible' for them to be saved, what they are really arguing for is the guarantee that every single person end up in hell. Because as a Bible believer I can't just ignore the teachings in the Bible about fallen man's attitude towards God.

We have to want to change though. God offers the grace. He shows Himself, but is not pushy for us to accept that gift.

 

[Anoetos]

We have to want to change though. God offers the grace. He shows Himself, but is not pushy for us to accept that gift.

This is not biblical.

The Bible teaches us that without God changing our hearts, we will not change, indeed we cannot. We are slaves to sin and we hate God.