Two passages of trouble for me.

[BrotherMatthew]

Hi everyone,

I just have a few passages which have been bothering me. I am genuinely seeking what scripture has to say so any response I’d appreciate refraining from simply personal opinion, and simply stating the objective. A bit of background on why I’m asking is because these are things that have come up in my class at bible college and having been in line with Reformed thought prior I’m not certain how to reconcile some of this with that.
The first passage, is Hebrews 6, second is 2 Peter 2:20


My Understanding: (Hebrews 6:4-6)


This is directed at those who have been enlightened(to salvation, as is the normal usage of enlightened) tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, and power of God(active believers and not passively sitting in pews,) and tasted the good Word of God. It seems to me in the most clear reading of the test its basically saying in verse 4, ‘it is impossible for those once saved’

Then for these people it is impossible if they ‘fall away’(parapipto, I understand is only used here and seems to mean to deviate from the right path or to fall away from worship of the one true God) it is impossible to restore them to repentance, because to do so is to crucify Christ again. Repentance being one of the foundations mentioned earlier in Heb 6. Just as the foundation of a building cannot be laid twice nor can the foundation of a Christian be laid twice.

So it seems to clearly state that a believer can lose salvation(as repentance is a stage in salvation[for lack of a better phrase] so without repentance one is not saved, or so it seems to me)

So where is my fallacy? I’ve tried to lay out my stream of consciousness clearly on this passage, but don’t hesitate to ask.



The second passage in question comes from Second Peter, 2 Peter 2:20
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“For if, after they have  escaped the defilement of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.“

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Again this passage seems to state that these people have escaped the defilement and then become entangled again(showing that they were untangled for a period)


This seems initially to state the case that they simply had a head knowledge but not a reality of Christ, yet if they were not truly saved I don’t think it could be said they were ‘again entangled’ but rather they remained tangled.


I again seek alternative views on this, and critique of the understanding. I don't know how to reconcile this view with the verses that seem more obviously to support Perseverance Of the Saints without saying something like you persevere while 'you remain' in Jesus, which seems false to say.



Thanks for taking the time to read.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Julian of York]

Thank you for that interesting question!
Let's prayerfully look in the Book.
Hebrews 6:4-6 Let's go back to chapter five,verse 9:" And being made perfect, He became the Author of ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM." The following verses complete the thought of Christ as a Priest after the order of Melchizidek, then an admonition to the Hebrews about their lack of maturity in the faith,then the author mentions that the direction of the Epistle will move away from the teaching of doctrines (6:1-3) Now we conclude the thought from 5:9 with"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away,to renew them again unto repentence,"...
So,for ease of study,let's see what that sounds like:
"And being made perfect,He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,..if they shall fall away,to renew them again unto repentence..."
So,what is being taught?
1)Eternal Salvation :no discussion needed
2)Impossibility of the enlightened ...5:9"All them that OBEY Him". to fall from faith and be brought back to repentence...WHY? Because they are not kept by their own power but by the Lord and His Gift of Eternal Salvation...Therefore,they cannot fall. "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to me,and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out."
Also,John 17:6-11 The key portion is 17:11"..Holy Father,keep through Thine own Name those whom Thou hast given Me..."
So,the promise of Scripture is that those who have obeyed Christ unto salvation can never fall. Those that can and have and will fall are those that tried and tasted and even had a repentence experience of some sort, but were never "them that obey Him".
No wonder the Epistle's author said that many are not able to deal with strong meat! This verse has been the BACKBONE of Free Will-ers. They teach you can fall from grace.
I trust the Holy Spirit will help you to "de-code" my poor attempt at assistance.

Your Brother in Christ,
Julian of York
Revelations 4:11 "For thou art worthy,O Lord,to recieve glory,and honor,and power;for Thou hast created all things;and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."

 

[Julian of York]

Sorry...here is the continuation of the above thoughts,which run very nicely into 2 Peter 2:20.
Once again,let's see what God is telling us.
First of all,we survey verses 12-19 which give us a very detailed look at the unsaved man:
1)Brute beasts..made for destruction
a.They may be identified by their speech
b.Their fate is perishing
2)Unrighteous...rioters (modern translation:" party animals")
a.Notice they are openly rioting "in the day time"
b.Sporting with their own decievings...
3)Eyes full of adultery (What a picture of 21st Century Man!)
a.CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN
c.Coveting (which is idolatry) and lustings
4)Forsaken the "narrow way" that leads to Salvation..gone astray..
WHY? Because they had no "taste" for the things of God
a.Followed Balaam...We remember that Balaam was a magician,an enchanter, that Balak of Moab tried to bribe into cursing Israel. God wouldn't allow it.In the Lord's PERMISSIVE WILL, He let Balaam go eventually with Balak to view Israel.But God said that Balaam's motives and attitude,his "ways" were not right.Therefore,He was going to kill Balaam. Moral: Balaam was following God's instructions but with a wrong attitude,motive,and a decieved heart. Sounds like millions of American "pseudo-Christians".
5)Balaam was rebuked by the donkey for his iniquity (intentional ,deliberate sin)
a.Balaam charecterized as a "madman",which is a sure description of ANYONE that will not do right.
6)The lost further called wells without water ("water" a type-picture of the Holy Spirit in the Bible)
a)Clouds blown every which way
b.Darkness is reserved for them forever
7)They speak great thingsin vain
a)Lure those that are saved to their wickedness
b)lusts of the flesh
c.Wantoness..they live in error
8)They promise liberty (I am an adult..I can do what I want) but they are servants of sin and entrapped

Now...we come to verse 20:"For if after they..." Who's they? That crowd we just heard the Holy Spirit describe...the lost"have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of Christ " ...that decieved crowd have had some kind of guilt trip and are "turning over a new leaf".I heard John Lennon did that himself, claiming to be a Christian.It lasted, according to friends,about two weeks. They are Matthew 13 seed that has fallen on shallow ground,that grows up quickly,and then withers. NO ROOT. And notice that Peter by the Holy Spirit mentions "Lord" Jesus Christ. There we have the crux of the matter.They did want to miss Hell,but they wanted to run things..."We will not have this Man to rule over us!"
And as it always happens,they WILL become entangled by their old sins,growing new ones,because they cannot "cease from sin".
Their punishment at the Great White Throne of Christ on Judgement Day willbe all the more bitter,and their earthly depravity all the worse,for having directly rejected the very Son of God.
May God have pity on them.
Verse 21 speaks saying it would be better that they never heard. This shows the common Grace of our dear Lord as seen in Matthew 13:4 where some seeds (the Gospel) fell by the wayside,and the birds came and ate them.Jesus explained this in verse 19"When anyone heareth the Word of the Kingdom,and understandeth it not, then comet the wicked one,and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart." It is God's great mercy at work,allowing the Devil to steal the seed,rather than have the unbelliever make a "decision" or "turn over a new leaf", or "join the church", but never be converted. God is grqaciously saving that sinner much pain and sorrow.
What a God!!!

Blessings!
Julian of York
Specialty: Long answers

 

[heymikey80]

Hebrews 6:4-6

This is directed at those who have been enlightened(to salvation, as is the normal usage of enlightened) tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, and power of God(active believers and not passively sitting in pews,) and tasted the good Word of God. It seems to me in the most clear reading of the test its basically saying in verse 4, ‘it is impossible for those once saved’

I find it really unlikely these people are "once saved". First off, "enlightened" follows the Greek idea that knowledge enlightens us. But it's quite clear from the anti-Gnostic defenses of Christianity that knowledge does not save us.

But second, Hebrews is constantly talking about faith as critical to salvation, and knowledge, good works, ritual, everything else is useless without faith.

The fallen characteristic listing omits faith.

Then for these people it is impossible if they ‘fall away’(parapipto, I understand is only used here and seems to mean to deviate from the right path or to fall away from worship of the one true God) it is impossible to restore them to repentance, because to do so is to crucify Christ again. Repentance being one of the foundations mentioned earlier in Heb 6. Just as the foundation of a building cannot be laid twice nor can the foundation of a Christian be laid twice.

The Apostle is instructing a congregation not to trail after those fallen away.

The Apostle is thus telling us there's nothing practical that we can do to renew someone to repentance, who has been "through the entire program" and then fallen away.

So it seems to clearly state that a believer can lose salvation(as repentance is a stage in salvation[for lack of a better phrase] so without repentance one is not saved, or so it seems to me)

The idea of repentance being a one-time thing really doesn't hold up very well. Christians are constantly repenting. And so the renewal that we can't bring about, that'd be a return to a life of repentance.

2 Peter 2:20

Again this passage seems to state that these people have escaped the defilement and then become entangled again(showing that they were untangled for a period)

This seems initially to state the case that they simply had a head knowledge but not a reality of Christ, yet if they were not truly saved I don’t think it could be said they were ‘again entangled’ but rather they remained tangled.

People can get unentangled from many kinds of worldliness by following Jesus' teachings.

 

[parkerj]

Faith is the key to Hebrews and not just in chapter 11. It is alluded throughout the entire book. In the beginning of Hebrews when the writer speaks of entering his rest and those who did not enter because of lack of faith, he gives a strong word to his readers by stating, "For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?....Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened." (Heb. 3:16;4:1-2)

 

[bricklayer]

Saved at 16, I continued to live in sin for years.
What that looked like to the unsaved caused them to lock me in mental hosiptals and psyc-wards on and off for the next 12yrs.
In all but a spiritual sense, I was much worse off.
At 28, I was broken and received repentence.
That was 20yrs ago.

Not all of the perishing are exposed to the gospel,
there is a mercy to that.
There is a particular torment to those who are expsed to the gospel and reject Him.
It seems to me that the scriptures you cite refer to these people:
sinners exposed to the gospel and saits living in sin.

 

[Tallen]

(Hebrews 6:4-6)

Not enlightened in the sense that they were regenerated. But enlightened in such a manner that they enjoyed the benefits of the covenant and knew the details of it. These folks, which the church has many, are folks that come into a covenant relationship with believers, and they enjoy the blessings of being in that covenant relationship with them. But at some point they fall out of the covenant and then afterword will never be in that position again.

Remember that Reformed Theology is Covenant Theology, which means that things relate to how a person is in standing to the covenant. For instance, foreigners were welcome in Israel under the Mosaic economy, for instance, and they enjoyed the many of the covenant benefits as long as they sojourned in the land. But..., they were not citizens and when they left, those benefits stopped.