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Two groups of "people of God"

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    “Two people of God” — Israel and the church. According to Romans 11 the people of God constitute one “olive tree” rooted in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, onto which believing Gentile “branches” are grafted and off of which unbelieving Jewish “branches” are broken.

    So how can there be two groups of "people of God"?? God is not dividing.
    1 Corinthians 1:13
    Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

    1 Corinthians 1:10
    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
     
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  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    As far as the people of God through faith in Messiah Yeshua are concerned, they are all one body/one olive tree whether Jew or Gentile. As far as the people of God that are not yet in Messiah, they are still His people if they live by faith (Hebrews 3:15-4:2). In other words, whether one has received Yeshua or not, if they live by faith they are "people of God". Those that live by faith, but have not received Yeshua will do so in due time. Even those who do not live by faith can become His people if they turn from their unbelief (lack of faith).
     
  3. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    There is a great example set between the Judges and Kings in the Bible.

    The story is not just about King Davids Great Grandmother but instead of how the Gentiles would be joined to Israel to be ONE people. However because of blood libel and other atrocious condemnations of Yeshua's people by the nations that has not happened.

    The story is about two Moabite women who married two brothers from the Tribe of Judah.
    These brothers from the Tribe of Judah represent the Great Great (x) Grandson of Ruth whose name is Yeshua.

    They married daughters of the nations but then they died. Their mother told them that they should go back to 'their people'.
    Now 'their people' were pagans; they worshiped pagan gods, they had their own traditions.

    One choose to stay with her MIL and bound herself in a covenant to not only her, but her people; the people of Israel.

    It did not matter to her that her husband was gone, what mattered is that she wanted to remain with the people of her husband and worship his God and his God alone.

    The other, now that her husband was gone returned to her people and to their ways and to their traditions. The people of her deceased husband held no place in her heart, nor did his God.

    Today we see this same story played out.
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    So those who are tearing at the root, at the people of the Bible, the chosen people, while claiming to be the children of God are not understanding who God's people really are?
     
  5. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Those who follow the High Priestly line of A'aron, and those who follow the High Priestly line of Melchizedek - two lines of people, but only one G_d.
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    So ... the High Priest of Melchizedek is the priest of first day worship? I know that there is not much information out on the faith of Melchizedek, but because Yeshua is performing High Priest duties in the Heavenly Sanctuary before His Father, I am assuming it is of the Judaic nature laid out on Mount Sinai.
     
  7. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    The High Priest of the Melchizedek Priestly line is the true High Priest of Shabbat, the Creator of the universe, by which all that is, was created.

    It is only the failing of the early Church (and successive versions of the Church) by which he is deemed to be the High Priest only of the 1st day of the week and not Shabbat, as well. In fact, the average pew warmer would have no idea what this conversation is all about - that's how bad it is.

    There is quite a lot of stuff out there about Melchizedek, actually, but our prime resource is the letter to the Hebrews, supported by Genesis and Psalms. If all Scripture is breathed by G_d, then we must take it seriously, and it points to Yeshua being the High Priest in the line of Melchizedek.

    It is also one view that holds Paul all together!
     
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  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Do you have any links on the study of Melchizedek that I can read?
     
  9. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I'll find some tomorrow - it is midnight here and so time for bed!
     
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  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" or "assembly" and it is used in the Septuagint to refer to the Church of Israel in the wilderness, so the Church is Israel. When the translators of the Bible inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" when it refers to an assembly of Christians and translate it as "assembly" everywhere else, they create the false impression that the Bible is speaking about something new and distinct rather than something rebuilt according to prophecy (Amos 9:11, Acts 15:16). So the idea that there are two peoples of God is completely false.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
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  11. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    There manifestly are 'two peoples of G_d'. On the one hand, there is Judaism and on the other hand there is Christianity. It was not meant to be like this, ever, but the fact is there are two peoples of G_d.

    Jews follow the sacrificial system (wanting a 3rd Temple to be built), and Christians follow a non-sacrificial system (waiting for the New Jerusalem).

    The Church is NOT Israel - that is Replacement Theology.
     
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  12. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    There are a number of books that appear if you Google 'Books about Melchizedek' - how reliable they are I'll leave to you to decide. However, a better starting point is here, with lots of references to follow: MELCHIZEDEK - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
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  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    At its origin, Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism. Jesus did not come to start his own religion, but rather he was born a Jew, raised a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, is the Jewish Messiah, fulfilled Jewish prophecy, will return as the Lion of Judah, and came to bring fullness to Judaism. Stephen was falsely accused of teaching Jews against obeying God's Torah (Acts 6:13) and Paul took steps at the direction of James to disprove false rumors that he was teaching Jews against obeying God's Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it (Act 21:20-24), so if no one in leadership was teaching Jews against obeying God, then all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Messiah's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, and this has always been the way that Christianity has been meant to be followed in accordance with the example that Messiah set for his followers in obedience to the Torah, but with the inclusion of Gentiles. Over time, Judaism and Christianity became distinct, with Judaism teaching to follow God's Torah, but not their Messiah, with Christianity teaching to follow the Messiah, but not God's Torah, and with both teaching half the truth. The Torah is the way (Deuteronomy 8:6, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), the Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Torah is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so there is no following one apart from following the other.

    Replacement Theology is teaching that Gentiles have replaced Israel in the economy of God, which is no according to what the Bible says, but what is according to the Bible is that Gentiles have become grafted into Israel. According to Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were once separated from MEssiah, alienated from Israel, strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world, but through faith in Messiah, all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are now no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints of in the household of God. According to Romans 9:6-8, not all who are descended from Israel are Israel, but rather Israel is made up of those who have faith in the promised Messiah. According to 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentile are now included as part of God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, so through faith in Messiah, Gentiles have become joined to Israel. As I stated, the Septuagint uses the same word to refer to the Church of Israel in the wilderness, so Israel is the Church.
     
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  14. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    In both cases: Spiritually, yes. Physically, no. In the real world there is a chasm between Judaism and Christianity. The modern Messianic Movement of some 20 - 30 years ago was to be a catalyst to draw the two together (read Mark Kinzer's writings). As usual, whenever there is a joining together in a religious sense, it never works because you end up with 3 or 4 distinct groups: the group that wants to join together on both sides, the groups that do want to join together on both sides, who then carry on as before and, as we have today, the catalyst itself becoming a distinct new grouping, with neither of the original groups who were supposed to join together, taking it seriously. One group - Judaism - sees it as Christianity, and the other group - Christianity - sees it as being Judaism! MJ's problem as the go-between religion is that it now calls itself Judaism (or a legitimate form of Judaism) and so loses its cutting edge. So much for being the catalyst - it is now the wall that Paul spoke about that divides both Judaism and Christianity!
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I am still very thankful for the gathering of believers who like me were drawn to it because of where it stands. I have learned lots because of the blinders taken off many subjects and brought into context. I have appreciated the dedication of many to help bring forth this good news to others, so that they can share in the joy I experience knowing the comforting truth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  16. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't have said it better. To reiterate -- the Church is not Israel.
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Judaism teaches about the coming of the Messiah, so it does not become a different religion when he comes, but a fuller religion. Those Jews who are still waiting for the Messiah to come do not think that he will start his own religion. The first Christians were Messianic Jews or Jews who believed that the Messiah had come. There was no distinction between Judaism and Christianity during Paul's day, so Paul could not have spoken about his religion dividing the two, nor would he have. It is not clear to me why you think those who are trying to rejoin Judaism and Christianity are acting a wall between them.
     
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  18. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I reiterate what I said - when modern day MJism began to take off, about 20 or 30 years ago, its stated purpose was to act as a catalyst to bring Judaism and Christianity together. As a catalyst, MJ would become defunct once it had achieved its purpose, and Judaism and Christianity were working together to find common ground as a basis for a closer relationship. This plan did not work.

    Instead, MJism has become, by its own admission, certainly on these fora, a valid form of Judaism. However, Judaism does not accept MJism as a form of Judaism, and Christianity does not accept MJism as a form of Christianity - ergo, MJism is stuck in the middle, serving neither of them to join with the other.

    Its original purpose, therefore (as in 20-30years ago), to be a catalyst, failed and today it sits in the middle, being neither one nor the other. A process that should have joined two of the great Abrahamic faiths together, has simply left them as they were, except that there is now this group in between the two, called Messianic Judaism. Not being aligned to either side it is like a middle wall made up of parts of both of the others, and seen as a threat by both of the other two. It is, effectively, like a m'chitza, separating two peoples - Jews and Christians, the opposite of its purpose.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's a matter of perspective. When you have unrealistic expectations, then Messianic Judaism will seem like a failure, but if you have realistic expectations, then it is a huge success. We're dealing with things that have been taught for centuries that are ingrained in what people have been taught their entire lives, so we should not expect Judaism and Christianity to openly embrace teachings that are foreign to what they've been taught and experience overnight transformation, but rather we should expect resistance, and quite frankly resistance is a healthy response. I used to be very resistant to the position I now hold, and it took me a few years digging into these issues and weighing the arguments before I eventually came to the conclusion that what I was taught about God's Law was wrong, so I don't blame anyone for being resistant.

    However, while there has much much resistance, there has also been much success. It wasn't that long ago that people hadn't even heard of Messianic Judaism, so it is growing rapidly. Many Jews are coming to embrace their Jewish Messiah and many Gentiles are coming to embrace the Jewish roots of their faith. Even among non-Messianics, there has been a large trend of people being more interested in studying the Jewish cultural context of the Bible. I'm seeing this happening among churches much more frequently than when I was growing up, and even my grandpa's church has started studying God's Feasts. God is calling His people back to the Jewish roots of our faith, and while it will take time, it is being successful. It's not about Gentiles remaining distinctly part of Christianity, Jews remaining distinctly part of Judaism, and finding common ground to worship God together, but about Gentiles embracing all of God's Word, Jews embracing God's Word made flesh and worshiping God together in Spirit and in truth.
     
  20. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    It still leaves Judaism and Christianity - two sets of G_d's people, plus MJism.
     
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