TWO Golden Chains of Salvation

[skypair]

On another forum, it came up that there are actually 2 golden chains of salvation .. Ro 8:29-20 and Ro 10:13-15. One is from God's perspective (Ro 8) and one is from our perspective (Ro 10). A couple of questions immediately come to the fore: 1) do they harmonize? 2) which one best describes what we can KNOW about salvation?

So here are the 1 chains merged — Ro 8 in blue.

1 He foreknew,
2 He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
3 A preacher is sent
4 He called
5 They hear the preacher
6 They believe
7 They call on the Lord
8 He justified — They are saved.
9 He glorified

Now we have the 2 perspectives in perfect harmony, right? God doesn't issue a call without requiring a response, does He? And it is in responding — calling on the name of the Lord — that we are justified, saved.

Can there be any objection to this?? Which chain are you counting on?

skypair

 

[Hammster]

The text says that those He called He also justified.

 

[skypair]

The text says that those He called He also justified.

Yes, those ARE God's actions. What we don't see in Ro 8 is OUR actions.

Ro 8 is great for those who believe in monergism and total sovereignty. But it is only half of the biblical description of salvation. The other half is what goes on in us to bring us to salvation.

skypair

 

[Hammster]

So to get it to work, you use eisegesis. I'm sure that's not the way you are supposed to do it.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

If there's two 'golden chains of salvation', then there's 'two Jacob's ladders'....

 

[skypair]

So to get it to work, you use eisegesis. I'm sure that's not the way you are supposed to do it.

No. Is there some reason that you cannot see the 2nd chain? Maybe because that is not how you experienced salvation? What about Ro 10:13-15 do you find invalid?? not according to your experience of salvation??

skypair

 

[skypair]

If there's two 'golden chains of salvation', then there's 'two Jacob's ladders'....

Why??

skypair

 

[Hammster]

No. Is there some reason that you cannot see the 2nd chain? Maybe because that is not how you experienced salvation? What about Ro 10:13-15 do you find invalid?? not according to your experience of salvation??

skypair

I can't see it because it's not there. You added to the text.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Why??

skypair

God chose us before the foundation of the world is biblically correct.

Us choosing God is biblically correct.

Same coin, different sides.

Now exegete your OP.

I remember you from another christian message board...

 

[skypair]

I can't see it because it's not there. You added to the text.

Well, conceding to your reply, in Ro 10 we have to reverse the order of events because Paul is going backwards to the origins of our salvation rather than laying it out in its order of occurrence. But, no, I didn't add to the text. It's all there .. just in a different order.

Can you see it now?

skypair

 

[skypair]

God chose us before the foundation of the world is biblically correct.

Us choosing God is biblically correct.

Same coin, different sides.

Right. As I said, Ro 8 is from God's pov. Man cannot know precisely what it means. But they can understand what Ro 10 means. It means that when the gospel is preached, men who believe it call on the name of God for salvation. Ro 10 is the one we experience. Ro 8 is merely looking through a glass darkly, as Paul would say — to which he added, "Then [in heaven] we will know as we are known."

skypair

 

[Hammster]

Well, conceding to your reply, in Ro 10 we have to reverse the order of events because Paul is going backwards to the origins of our salvation rather than laying it out in its order of occurrence. But, no, I didn't add to the text. It's all there .. just in a different order.

Can you see it now?

skypair

You are now mixing two passages in order to prop up your theology. That is not good hermeneutics.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Right. As I said, Ro 8 is from God's pov. Man cannot know precisely what it means. But they can understand what Ro 10 means. It means that when the gospel is preached, men who believe it call on the name of God for salvation. Ro 10 is the one we experience. Ro 8 is merely looking through a glass darkly, as Paul would say — to which he added, "Then [in heaven] we will know as we are known."

skypair

Look at what you bolded. You said men who believe. Now, where does this belief originate from? Man or God? I say God. Look at what John wrote in John 6:

"Jesus answered them and said, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were satisfied; work not for the food that is perishing, but for the food that is remaining to life age-during, which the Son of Man will give to you, for him did the Father seal -- [even] God.' They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send." John 6:26-29 (YLT)


Jesus was addressing those who were falsely following Him. They didn't desire Him the way the regenerate do, but were looking for something to eat. He told them that to believe on Him whom sent Him was the work of God. Those who hear and believe on Him have already had the work of God within them drawing them to Him.

Phpps 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure


Hebrews 12:2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;

John 3:21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.


All these verses show that it is God who iniatates the salvation process we call conversion. Those who believe, have already had God's work wrought within their heart, drawing them to Him. Those who are doing the truth--showing that something is already there working within them--come to the Light, the True Light. Those who believe, their author and perfecter of it, is God. Men don't have a free will to come, God effectually calls/draws them.

There are no two golden chains of salvation. There's only one, and that is God...

 

[skypair]

Look at what you bolded. You said men who believe. Now, where does this belief originate from? Man or God? I say God. Look at what John wrote in John 6:

"Jesus answered them and said, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were satisfied; work not for the food that is perishing, but for the food that is remaining to life age-during, which the Son of Man will give to you, for him did the Father seal -- [even] God.' They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send." John 6:26-29 (YLT)

The FACTS originate with God .. the choice to believe or not originates in man. Even your own citation says to — "the YE may believe in Him." God already does believe in His Son.

Jesus was addressing those who were falsely following Him. They didn't desire Him the way the regenerate do,…

You mean regenerate like His disciples? Well, at this point, even His disciples weren't regenerate. That only happened after Christ had risen, Jn 16:8.

...but were looking for something to eat. He told them that to believe on Him whom sent Him was the work of God.

Yes, the "work of God" that WE must do.

Phpps 2:13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure

This is true AFTER we are saved.

All these verses show that it is God who iniatates the salvation process we call conversion. Those who believe, have already had God's work wrought within their heart, drawing them to Him. Those who are doing the truth--showing that something is already there working within them--come to the Light, the True Light. Those who believe, their author and perfecter of it, is God. Men don't have a free will to come, God effectually calls/draws them.

Yes, God initiates — He reveals His gospel to our hearts. We either choose to believe or to not believe. Is it not obvious to you that we cannot have the Spirit, regeneration, unless we choose to believe God?

There are no two golden chains of salvation. There's only one, and that is God...

Well, there's obviously not even one golden chain, right? That's just what we are calling the paths to salvation. You think you know God's side (Ro 8 — but no one has "the mind of the Lord," 1Cor 2:16) .. you don't. What we CAN know is our side — we hear the gospel, we believe, we call on the name of the Lord, we are saved. When God calls, He wants a response of the heart before He gives a new heart.

skypair

 

[Sovereign Grace]

The FACTS originate with God .. the choice to believe or not originates in man. Even your own citation says to — "the YE may believe in Him." God already does believe in His Son.



You mean regenerate like His disciples? Well, at this point, even His disciples weren't regenerate. That only happened after Christ had risen, Jn 16:8.


Yes, the "work of God" that WE must do.


This is true AFTER we are saved.


Yes, God initiates — He reveals His gospel to our hearts. We either choose to believe or to not believe. Is it not obvious to you that we cannot have the Spirit, regeneration, unless we choose to believe God?


Well, there's obviously not even one golden chain, right? That's just what we are calling the paths to salvation. You think you know God's side (Ro 8 — but no one has "the mind of the Lord," 1Cor 2:16) .. you don't. What we CAN know is our side — we hear the gospel, we believe, we call on the name of the Lord, we are saved. When God calls, He wants a response of the heart before He gives a new heart.

skypair

You are posting nothing but pure pelegianism....

 

[Sovereign Grace]

The FACTS originate with God .. the choice to believe or not originates in man. Even your own citation says to — "the YE may believe in Him." God already does believe in His Son.



You mean regenerate like His disciples? Well, at this point, even His disciples weren't regenerate. That only happened after Christ had risen, Jn 16:8.


Yes, the "work of God" that WE must do.


This is true AFTER we are saved.


Yes, God initiates — He reveals His gospel to our hearts. We either choose to believe or to not believe. Is it not obvious to you that we cannot have the Spirit, regeneration, unless we choose to believe God?


Well, there's obviously not even one golden chain, right? That's just what we are calling the paths to salvation. You think you know God's side (Ro 8 — but no one has "the mind of the Lord," 1Cor 2:16) .. you don't. What we CAN know is our side — we hear the gospel, we believe, we call on the name of the Lord, we are saved. When God calls, He wants a response of the heart before He gives a new heart.

skypair

In Acts, Who opened Lydia's heart?

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Skypair,

The ability to not believe lies within man. The ability to believe lies with God. You need to quit posting pelegianism on this board....

 

[98cwitr]

On another forum, it came up that there are actually 2 golden chains of salvation .. Ro 8:29-20 and Ro 10:13-15. One is from God's perspective (Ro 8) and one is from our perspective (Ro 10). A couple of questions immediately come to the fore: 1) do they harmonize? 2) which one best describes what we can KNOW about salvation?

So here are the 1 chains merged — Ro 8 in blue.

1 He foreknew,
2 He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
3 A preacher is sent
4 He called
5 They hear the preacher
6 They believe
7 They call on the Lord
8 He justified — They are saved.
9 He glorified

Now we have the 2 perspectives in perfect harmony, right? God doesn't issue a call without requiring a response, does He? And it is in responding — calling on the name of the Lord — that we are justified, saved.

Can there be any objection to this?? Which chain are you counting on?

skypair

Throw John 3 in there's your "missing link"

 

[ThisBrotherOfHis]

Tossing aside the Romans 8 and Romans 10 "chains" of salvation -- neither one of which are there as is being interpreted on this thread -- I will state this:

God chose us in Christ because He foresaw us in Him, which is the only place for His grace to abound. It pleased God to do, such that all who believe in Him, through faith, are enjoined to His body as “one spirit with Him” (1st Corinthians 6:17), and share in all of the riches that God the Father has eternally reserved in His Son.

The rage of some believers is that other believers adopt what they see as a man-centered salvation, while they see a God-centered salvation. However, what the first group misses is that when they teach that God unconditionally chose them as a place for His grace, they are saying that they were chosen in themselves, only later to be given later to Christ. Both groups fail to see the biblical teaching that God choose His Son to be a place for His grace to abide, and God calls all to enter. That is adequately demonstrated in the parable of the Wedding Feast.

The lesson closes with an explanation ("for"). Many are "called," but few are chosen. That first group of believers latches onto that word to justify the false doctrine of reprobation. The word "many" is not intended to be a restricted number. It is used several times in Isaiah 53 to speak of those for whom Christ poured out His blood. Now His invitation has gone out to all who care to listen, but some just refused, and some wanted to come but refused to submit to the requirements of entrance into the kingdom. So none of these will be present in the kingdom.

Those Jesus refers to as "chosen" are the people who respond to the invitation to come, and respond in the proper manner so that they are prepared to enter the kingdom. Because the Bible refers to the recipients of grace as "chosen," we may conclude that it intends to say that God is not surprised by the acceptance of some and the rejection of many -- in other words, sovereign grace is still at work, even though on the human level we see how some refuse and some accept and prepare.

This is, I know, more in-depth than the original post, but you can't raise the questions asked without discussing the fullness of the biblical text.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Tossing aside the Romans 8 and Romans 10 "chains" of salvation -- neither one of which are there as is being interpreted on this thread -- I will state this:

God chose us in Christ because He foresaw us in Him, which is the only place for His grace to abound. It pleased God to do, such that all who believe in Him, through faith, are enjoined to His body as “one spirit with Him” (1st Corinthians 6:17), and share in all of the riches that God the Father has eternally reserved in His Son.

The rage of some believers is that other believers adopt what they see as a man-centered salvation, while they see a God-centered salvation. However, what the first group misses is that when they teach that God unconditionally chose them as a place for His grace, they are saying that they were chosen in themselves, only later to be given later to Christ. Both groups fail to see the biblical teaching that God choose His Son to be a place for His grace to abide, and God calls all to enter. That is adequately demonstrated in the parable of the Wedding Feast.

The lesson closes with an explanation ("for"). Many are "called," but few are chosen. That first group of believers latches onto that word to justify the false doctrine of reprobation. The word "many" is not intended to be a restricted number. It is used several times in Isaiah 53 to speak of those for whom Christ poured out His blood. Now His invitation has gone out to all who care to listen, but some just refused, and some wanted to come but refused to submit to the requirements of entrance into the kingdom. So none of these will be present in the kingdom.

Those Jesus refers to as "chosen" are the people who respond to the invitation to come, and respond in the proper manner so that they are prepared to enter the kingdom. Because the Bible refers to the recipients of grace as "chosen," we may conclude that it intends to say that God is not surprised by the acceptance of some and the rejection of many -- in other words, sovereign grace is still at work, even though on the human level we see how some refuse and some accept and prepare.

This is, I know, more in-depth than the original post, but you can't raise the questions asked without discussing the fullness of the biblical text.

In one way you post as an adherent to DoG, and in another way, not so much. Will you please expound on this post? I'm "fuzzy" as to what you're conveying here. Also, when you said "God forsaw", what do you mean by this? I ask for clarity's sake, so we can further the discussion...