two covenants

[Gup20]

Paul was circumcised on the 8th day; he circumcised Timothy. Do you know who Titus was? Was Titus a Jew or Greek? Paul the Pharisee did not write or say Acts 21:25. The "we" is not Paul. Paul the Pharisee obey the law and he teach others to do so, as all who heard his message were zealous for the law. Apparently people in those days like you thought Paul the Pharisee was teaching against Moses. So Paul submitted to a temple ritual to prove them wrong.

No friend... I’m not preaching against Moses. I am saying that there are two ways to be justified as righteous. First, the Law of Moses (from which no one besides Jesus will ever qualify as righteous) and the second is the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant of righteous by faith will be how all who are righteous will qualify as righteous. I agree with you that the Law of Moses is righteous and good. However, it is impossible for anyone to qualify that way. Christ was the first, and will be the only to ever be justified by it. The rest of us have a hope BECAUSE Jesus was justified as righteous by The Law of Moses. Because Christ was justified as righteous, he had righteousness to give up and fulfill the credit to Abraham. Once Abraham’s credit was redeemed, his righteousness can now be inherited by all of his descendants... both those who are descendants based on physical lineage and those who are descendants based on faith.

It was the Law of Moses which confirmed — for the first time in history — the righteousness of a son of man - Jesus Christ. Therefore, since there is now a single righteousness in the universe, Adam’s universal judgment of death (for all die under Adam... people, animals, plants, even the ground was cursed) is unjust and must be repealed so that individual judgments can occur rather than Adam’s universal judgment.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ couldn’t have been confirmed without The Law of Moses... and therefore we who are not Jews could never have been adopted to the inheritance of that righteousness. We who are not Jews (and even those who are Jews) no longer need to keep the Law of Moses to obtain our own rightousness because the promise to Abraham and to his seed that they would inherit the righteousness credited to him. This is not to say that the Law is not good... nor that The Law isn’t God’s preferred actions of human beings. It is to say that we no longer need be concerned with being justified as righteous by the law... that has been covered for us by Christ. We are now free to relate to God out of faith and love rather than by duty and fear of death.

 

[Mercy74]

Here’s the context -




Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:11-16


The middle wall that separated Jew from Gentile was the law of Moses, which forbid “uncircumcised” Gentiles to be a part of the commonwealth of Israel.


Now the law of Moses has been removed, and abolished in His flesh, so that from the two (Jew and Gentile) He could create one new man.

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Case Closed.



JLB

What does "fulfill" mean? Does fulfill mean to abolish? In fact the scriptures plainly say that Yeshua did not come to abolish the law

 

[Mercy74]

No amount of twisting or adding words will change the truth.


The law is not of faith.


But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6




JLB

If you seek him, he shall give you truth. The truth; Yeshua did not come to abolish the law.

 

[Mercy74]

No friend... I’m not preaching against Moses. I am saying that there are two ways to be justified as righteous. First, the Law of Moses (from which no one besides Jesus will ever qualify as righteous) and the second is the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant of righteous by faith will be how all who are righteous will qualify as righteous. I agree with you that the Law of Moses is righteous and good. However, it is impossible for anyone to qualify that way. Christ was the first, and will be the only to ever be justified by it. The rest of us have a hope BECAUSE Jesus was justified as righteous by The Law of Moses. Because Christ was justified as righteous, he had righteousness to give up and fulfill the credit to Abraham. Once Abraham’s credit was redeemed, his righteousness can now be inherited by all of his descendants... both those who are descendants based on physical lineage and those who are descendants based on faith.

It was the Law of Moses which confirmed — for the first time in history — the righteousness of a son of man - Jesus Christ. Therefore, since there is now a single righteousness in the universe, Adam’s universal judgment of death (for all die under Adam... people, animals, plants, even the ground was cursed) is unjust and must be repealed so that individual judgments can occur rather than Adam’s universal judgment.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ couldn’t have been confirmed without The Law of Moses... and therefore we who are not Jews could never have been adopted to the inheritance of that righteousness. We who are not Jews (and even those who are Jews) no longer need to keep the Law of Moses to obtain our own rightousness because the promise to Abraham and to his seed that they would inherit the righteousness credited to him. This is not to say that the Law is not good... nor that The Law isn’t God’s preferred actions of human beings. It is to say that we no longer need be concerned with being justified as righteous by the law... that has been covered for us by Christ. We are now free to relate to God out of faith and love rather than by duty and fear of death.

Your understanding of the law of Moses is not cogent.

 

[JLB777]

What does "fulfill" mean? Does fulfill mean to abolish? In fact the scriptures plainly say that Yeshua did not come to abolish the law

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.


He also said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law till its fulfilled.


TILL ITS FULFILLED!

Nothing will pass from the law UNTIL it has been fulfilled.


Guess what?

Jesus fulfilled the law.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


Paul says it this way -


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

The Seed has come and fulfilled the law and has abolished it in His flesh.


Case Closed.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

If you seek him, he shall give you truth. The truth; Yeshua did not come to abolish the law.

He fulfilled it.

It has been abolished in His flesh, nailed to the cross, and taken out of the way.



For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-16

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-15

• having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

JLB

 

[Gup20]

Your understanding of the law of Moses is not cogent.

You rely on the law... which is unable to save you. I rely on Grace which can bring the dead to life. Where is the temple? It has been destroyed for 2000 years following the death of Messiah. You are unable to fulfill the law. The Jews have broken that covenant over and over.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.​

Galatians 3:19 (NASB) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Galatians 3:23-29 (NASB) 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.​

Jesus completed (Fulfilled) the law by doing it. The purpose of the law was to lead us to Christ. Jesus kept the law and was declared righteous by it. This no other man in history has done. Jesus kept it, thereby fulfilling it.

Romans 3:9-23 (NASB) 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." 13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS"; 14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS"; 15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN." 18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES." 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:1-3 (NASB)
1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 53:1-3 (NASB)
1 [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
​

 

[Mercy74]

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.


He also said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law till its fulfilled.


TILL ITS FULFILLED!

Nothing will pass from the law UNTIL it has been fulfilled.


Guess what?

Jesus fulfilled the law.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


Paul says it this way -


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

The Seed has come and fulfilled the law and has abolished it in His flesh.


Case Closed.



JLB

Let me emphasize the entirety of Matthew 5:18 not just the part that you think serves your purpose. I will not allow you to CONTAIN or limit the law of commandments inside ordinances, so that the law will be like the handwriting that the Romans wrote against us on the cross.

Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Let me post it again, in case anyone missed it! Heaven and earth have not disappeared!

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Let me post it again, in case anyone missed it! Heaven and earth have not disappeared!

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Yeshua has certainly fulfilled the law but ALL has not been fulfilled. You remember Yeshua told a parable about a builder who was ridiculed because he was only able to lay the foundation;

Luke 14:29
29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

Christ is that foundation that the wise builder must use. If ALL has been fulfilled why is Paul the Pharisee laying a foundation as an expert builder and why is someone else building on it?

1 Corinthians 3:10-11

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Can any man legally build a house without regard for the law?

 

[Mercy74]

He fulfilled it.

It has been abolished in His flesh, nailed to the cross, and taken out of the way.



For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-16

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-15

• having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

JLB

The law was never contrary to Israel. It is apparent that the law of commandments were contained in ordinances.

 

[Gup20]

Let me emphasize the entirety of Matthew 5:18 not just the part that you think serves your purpose. I will not allow you to CONTAIN or limit the law of commandments inside ordinances, so that the law will be like the handwriting that the Romans wrote against us on the cross.

Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Let me post it again, in case anyone missed it! Heaven and earth have not disappeared!

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Let me post it again, in case anyone missed it! Heaven and earth have not disappeared!

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

Yeshua has certainly fulfilled the law but ALL has not been fulfilled. You remember Yeshua told a parable about a builder who was ridiculed because he was only able to lay the foundation;

Luke 14:29
29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

Christ is that foundation that the wise builder must use. If ALL has been fulfilled why is Paul the Pharisee laying a foundation as an expert builder and why is someone else building on it?

1 Corinthians 3:10-11

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Can any man legally build a house without regard for the law?

The purpose of the law was to conclude ALL are under sin. It was to demonstrate that NO ONE was righteous enough in and of themselves. It cannot impart life to those who have sinned... it can only impart death.

There are two ways to fulfill the law. Keep the law perfectly and never violate it and be declared righteous by it (this is what Jesus did). Or, alternatively, break the law and die as punishment. All have sinned, and all deserve death. The law cannot save you once you have sinned. It has nothing but condemnation for the sinner.

The purpose of the law was to show that no one could be good enough to earn their own righteousness, and force all to turn to Christ and faith for righteousness.

Romans 3:28-31 (NASB) 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.​

 

[Mercy74]

The purpose of the law was to conclude ALL are under sin. It was to demonstrate that NO ONE was righteous enough in and of themselves. It cannot impart life to those who have sinned... it can only impart death.

There are two ways to fulfill the law. Keep the law perfectly and never violate it and be declared righteous by it (this is what Jesus did). Or, alternatively, break the law and die as punishment. All have sinned, and all deserve death. The law cannot save you once you have sinned. It has nothing but condemnation for the sinner.

The purpose of the law was to show that no one could be good enough to earn their own righteousness, and force all to turn to Christ and faith for righteousness.

Romans 3:28-31 (NASB) 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.​

WE ESTABLISH THE LAW!!!!! (Romans 3:31) Are you establishing the law of Moses among Gentiles like Paul the Pharisee? The Pharisees were known for their strict observance of Torah.

 

[Gup20]

Salvation by faith alone apart from The Law is testified about in the Torah. Paul says “we establish the law” and then proceeds in the very next verse to describe how Abraham believed God apart from works of the law and was made righteous for it. This “covenant of faith” with Abraham is recorded in The Law ... in the Torah. Though it happened 430 years before The Law was given to Moses, and so the Abrahamic covenant is outside of the law.

Romans 3:28-31 (NASB) 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.​

Romans 4:1-5 (NASB) 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,​

So when Paul says a man is justified by faith apart from the law, and that this statement doesn’t nullify the law, but establishes the law, and then uses Abrahams righteousness by faith apart from the law as an example, this should give all who love the law confidence in righteousness by faith apart from works of the law... yet somehow you don’t trust the law when it speaks of righteousness without the law. Perhaps you simply don’t have as much faith in what the law teaches than you thought!

 

[Mercy74]

Salvation by faith alone apart from The Law is testified about in the Torah. Paul says “we establish the law” and then proceeds in the very next verse to describe how Abraham believed God apart from works of the law and was made righteous for it. This “covenant of faith” with Abraham is recorded in The Law ... in the Torah. Though it happened 430 years before The Law was given to Moses, and so the Abrahamic covenant is outside of the law.

Romans 3:28-31 (NASB) 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.​

Romans 4:1-5 (NASB) 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,​

So when Paul says a man is justified by faith apart from the law, and that this statement doesn’t nullify the law, but establishes the law, and then uses Abrahams righteousness by faith apart from the law as an example, this should give all who love the law confidence in righteousness by faith apart from works of the law... yet somehow you don’t trust the law when it speaks of righteousness without the law. Perhaps you simply don’t have as much faith in what the law teaches than you thought!

How did Paul the Pharisee establish the law? Paul the Pharisee circumcised Timothy!

 

[Gup20]

How did Paul the Pharisee establish the law? Paul the Pharisee circumcised Timothy!

Which commandments or the 600+ laws did Abraham follow when he was credited with righteousness? None... they weren’t given for another 430 years. Was Abraham circumcised or uncircumcised when Hod credited him with righteousness? He was made righteous as an uncircumcised Gentile.

Had Abraham been circumcised when God ratified this covenant of righteousness by faith with him in The second half of Genesis 15? No. Can you add conditions to a covenant after it has been ratified? No. Did the law which came 430 years later add any conditions to Abraham’s covenant? No.

This is what the law establishes - salvation by faith alone apart from works of the law of Moses.

To deny this (as you are doing) is to reject The Law as written and substitute your own version of the law in its place.

 

[JLB777]

Let me emphasize the entirety of Matthew 5:18 not just the part that you think serves your purpose.

You quoted Matthew 5:17.

You ignored verse 18 that plainly says ...

Until it’s fulfilled.


Did Christ fulfill the law?




JLB

 

[JLB777]

The law was never contrary to Israel. It is apparent that the law of commandments were contained in ordinances.

The law is not of faith.


Period.


Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12




JLB

 

[Gup20]

How did Paul the Pharisee establish the law? Paul the Pharisee circumcised Timothy!

By the way, Paul didn’t circumcise Timothy to honor the law, nor for Timothy’s salvation, but rather so that the Jews would accept his preaching.

Acts 16:3 (NASB) Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.​

This was because the Jews would not accept hearing from him unless he was circumcised. But Paul chose him and accepted him as a saved brother whom he wanted to join him in preaching while he was uncircumcised.

 

[Mercy74]

Which commandments or the 600+ laws did Abraham follow when he was credited with righteousness? None... they weren’t given for another 430 years. Was Abraham circumcised or uncircumcised when Hod credited him with righteousness? He was made righteous as an uncircumcised Gentile.

Had Abraham been circumcised when God ratified this covenant of righteousness by faith with him in The second half of Genesis 15? No. Can you add conditions to a covenant after it has been ratified? No. Did the law which came 430 years later add any conditions to Abraham’s covenant? No.

This is what the law establishes - salvation by faith alone apart from works of the law of Moses.

To deny this (as you are doing) is to reject The Law as written and substitute your own version of the law in its place.

After Abraham was made righteous by his faith, he circumcised every male in his house. Faith without work is dead.

 

[Mercy74]

You quoted Matthew 5:17.

You ignored verse 18 that plainly says ...

Until it’s fulfilled.


Did Christ fulfill the law?




JLB

Faith without works is dead

 

[Mercy74]

The law is not of faith.


Period.


Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12




JLB

Faith without works is dead