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Two Cabins

Chesterton

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I never looked into Dawkins on anything...never read any of his work...never watched him speak. In the context you're speaking of though...fittest doesn't necessarily translate to truth.

When we talk about a "democracy of ideas" you have to basically exclude the entire category of theology from the discussion. There's nothing democratic about the way religions (particularly christianity) handle the exchange of ideas. Doctrine has to be indoctrinated then defended against any ideas which might contradict it. Whether or not the idea being defended against is true has nothing to do with how a religion regards it. The only consideration religion has is whether or not the idea supports or contradicts doctrine.

I don't really have to pull example upon example of this, do I? Certainly you're aware of how christianity has dealt with competing ideas (religions) and scientific facts throughout its history. Would you call this a democracy?

Only in the last few hundred years...only in certain places...has religion lost the ability to use violence and the threat of violence to stop the consideration of competing ideas. If democracy were run this way, we'd have one political party to which everyone belonged whether they agreed with it or not and no elections at all.

Funny, I've seen the exact opposite reasoning used against Christianity. Some say our theology isn't true because it was too democratic; that our theology was decided by majority vote, largely through the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Then yes, after it's established it's defended, just as scientists defend their ideas in the science forum here.

As far as force and violence sometimes used, I could write a lengthy response about it, but I'll just point out that I'm Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. The difference may not mean anything to you, but coercion was not used in the East. You have to remember that holding different religious views was in some times and places seen as a crime against the State, which makes some sense even from a secular evolutionary view. Before the modern "rule of law", a society was safer and more stable with that kind of cohesion.

The question did come up once in the East, when after Christianity became the religion of the empire, a bishop wrote a letter to other bishops (it's factual history but I don't have the names and details handy, you can Wiki or Google if you care) asking what should be done about non-Christians in his city or region. He asked should it be made a crime? The concensus answer from the bishops about what to do with them was to "love them"; it should not be made a crime. So I'll defend the Catholics a little, but also toot my own Church's horn a little.
 
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Chesterton

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I do? Why?

Because you lack one, and without one you won't be trusted as much as someone who has one.

But you are claiming, and have claimed that Christians are morally superior to atheists at least. One of your stereotypes is that Christians believe themselves morally superior to others. Yet you sit here claiming that you don't live up to those stereotypes?

Well, sort of. I said I'd stay in the Christian cabin. Most atheists/humanists said they'd stay in the atheist cabin. Are they claiming they're morally superior to Christians? A couple of them flat out said so. Should I add to a list of atheist stereotypes that they think they're better than me?

I could point out the others, but other posters already have and you choose to ignore them.

I'm not trying to avoid anything. I skipped replying to a few posts which I thought were repeating things I was responding to in other posts. If you have specific things you can point them out.

Instead let me ask this: Are you a good Christian? If you take all of the professed Christians, all of the Cafeteria Christians, the CINO's, the fairweather Christians, the True Christians, the weirdos, and all of the Real Christians, where do you stack up on the Good Christian scale? Do you inspire others to be better? Are you a Christian others would look up to? If you were to rank yourself are you among the good Christians?

I'll go with whatever your answer is.

No, I'm not a good Christian. Are you a good atheist?
 
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Davian

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I didn't claim necessarily my God.
You did use the word "God" and not "gods". Shame that your god has a somewhat generic name.

Get back to me when you've proven your hypothesis.
Hypothesis are not proven but supported by evidence, which is why I included the link the wiki page, which contains the citations for science involved in evolutionary theory, which I was paraphrasing.

You demand proof of every Christian claim a Christian makes on here, I should be entitled to do the same.
Actually, I do not demand proof. I do ask for something testable or demonstrable. Something small, if you have it.
Another unproven belief.
Do you not think the writers of the bible took human nature into account when creating their books? Were they not learned men?
 
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JGG

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Because you lack one, and without one you won't be trusted as much as someone who has one.

Do you really think I lack a moral philosophy? I just don't get one from atheism. Based on your moral philosophy what makes atheists untrustworthy? Does knowing someone's moral philosophy make them more moral?

Well, sort of. I said I'd stay in the Christian cabin. Most atheists/humanists said they'd stay in the atheist cabin. Are they claiming they're morally superior to Christians? A couple of them flat out said so. Should I add to a list of atheist stereotypes that they think they're better than me?

Maybe. Or perhaps most atheists are aware that for the most part, Christians don't much like or trust us.

I'm not trying to avoid anything. I skipped replying to a few posts which I thought were repeating things I was responding to in other posts. If you have specific things you can point them out.

I didn't say avoid, I said ignore.

No, I'm not a good Christian. Are you a good atheist?

Why not? I'm not asking in what way are you not a good Christian, I'm asking why not? Are you content in the spot where you are? You're quite content to rag on atheists here, is that making you a better Christian? Is the reputation of Christianity depending on everyone else?

I don't believe in God so on the basis on which I would make a good atheist, I'm still doing very well.

But, I think I'm a pretty decent (and legitimate) Human Being.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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... Are they claiming they're morally superior to Christians? A couple of them flat out said so. Should I add to a list of atheist stereotypes that they think they're better than me?...

If you use the bible as your source of morality, then I am definitely morally superior to you, because I am morally superior to the God of the bible.
 
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keith99

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Well, the USA has a lot of Christians, and a lot of crime.

Japan has hardly any Christians, and far less crime.

I think the best bet is to go to the atheist's cabin.

Is Japan atheist.

Shinto cabin was not a choice offered.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Just going on the information that you have, "atheist" tells you almost nothing and "Christian" tells you a great deal. All you know about the atheist is that he doesn't believe in God. You have no idea about his character, moral values, etc...

But if you know that someone is a Christian you know that they aspire to emulate Jesus and to obey the 10 commandments. They may not do this perfectly, but it's much less probable to suffer at the hands of a Christian than it is an atheist.

What if the scenario were a bit different? In one cabin you've got an atheist. In another cabin you've got Jesus. Which would you choose to stay with and why?

There are many who call themselves Christians and genuinely strive to emulate Jesus and treat others with kindness, respect, and compassion. And there are also many who call themselves Christians but are manipulative, untrustworthy, malicious, and simply using the title for advantageous means. How many Christians are in prison?
 
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True Scotsman

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Because you lack one, and without one you won't be trusted as much as someone who has one.

And you know this about him how?

A set of moral commandments does not a philosophy make. Moral commandments are not principles. "God says so" is not a principle.

Why is dishonesty immoral?

God said so.

What is the principle involved?

Blank out.
 
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lupusFati

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Yes.

Because Christianity is a moral philosophy (among other things).

While atheism is not.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
That's not what I was saying at all.

I was saying Japan's culture is vastly different than the US culture, so saying there are 'more' or 'less' christians in Japan than the United States, and accounting for no other variables, is an unfair comparison.
 
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Simmeh

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Is Japan atheist.

Shinto cabin was not a choice offered.

According to demographics, very view Japanese believe in a specific religion, and even fewer believe in any sort of God. But many people in Japan observe religious rituals - it's just that to them, these ceremonies are more about tradition and personal choice than it is about dogma and belief.

They also don't just stick to the customs of a single religion or philosophy. Shinto is the traditional religion of Japan, and many of its customs are practised throughout life - incense burning, praying at the temple, consecrating newborns, special birthdays, etc. But, many Japanese prefer to have Christian weddings, and most burial rights are performed by Buddhist monks. These are just the customs they feel make their lives better, so these are the ones they practice.
 
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Davian

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Practically the atheist equivalent of four Popes.



I don't know what 3 I'm living up to. I answered the OP and gave my reason for my answer. I didn't do any of the other things you said. My answer is probably similar to the reason politicians don't come out and say they're atheists. That's on you. You need to come up with a moral philosophy which is as compelling as the supernatural compulsion we all feel.
You are begging the question.

How do you know that this "compulsion we all feel" is "supernatural" and not the result of us having evolved as social animals?

Can you define "supernatural" in this context so we can test it in some way?
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I was saying Japan's culture is vastly different than the US culture, so saying there are 'more' or 'less' christians in Japan than the United States, and accounting for no other variables, is an unfair comparison.

We weren't given any information, just atheist or Christian cabin. So I would want to maximize the odds of not getting robbed with that information.

So, I went with what I do know: Societies with less religion have higher societal health...part of which is less crime. So I would have the best of odds of not getting robbed by staying at the atheists cabin.
 
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Cearbhall

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Just going on the information that you have, "atheist" tells you almost nothing and "Christian" tells you a great deal. All you know about the atheist is that he doesn't believe in God. You have no idea about his character, moral values, etc...

But if you know that someone is a Christian you know that they aspire to emulate Jesus and to obey the 10 commandments. They may not do this perfectly, but it's much less probable to suffer at the hands of a Christian than it is an atheist.
The atheist is just as likely to aspire to be a good person. I don't see any reason to think that it's less probable to suffer at the hands of a Christian. All I know about the Christian is that he/she believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
 
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durangodawood

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Please don't put words in my mouth.
That's not what I was saying at all.

I was saying Japan's culture is vastly different than the US culture, so saying there are 'more' or 'less' christians in Japan than the United States, and accounting for no other variables, is an unfair comparison.
???

I didnt put words in your mouth. I agreed. Then I went on to explain why I agreed. I'm afraid I will not desist from this approach.

(But having not quoted anyone in your response, I guessed you were referring to the OP.)
 
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Chesterton

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You did use the word "God" and not "gods". Shame that your god has a somewhat generic name.

Why's that a shame?

Hypothesis are not proven but supported by evidence, which is why I included the link the wiki page, which contains the citations for science involved in evolutionary theory, which I was paraphrasing.

That science regarding creation of religion is unconvincing.

Do you not think the writers of the bible took human nature into account when creating their books? Were they not learned men?

Yes, I'm sure they did.
 
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Chesterton

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Do you really think I lack a moral philosophy? I just don't get one from atheism. Based on your moral philosophy what makes atheists untrustworthy? Does knowing someone's moral philosophy make them more moral?

Well, I often hear from atheists that atheists as a group don't believe any one set of things, that the only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in God. So am I supposed to assume that you have a moral philosophy? If I label myself a Christian, you know "where I'm coming from". You may dislike it but at least you know. How am I supposed to know "where you're coming from"?

What might make atheists untrustworthy I already stated in the previous post. No, knowing someone's moral philosophy does not make them moral.

Maybe. Or perhaps most atheists are aware that for the most part, Christians don't much like or trust us.

Do you trust atheists more than other kinds of people? If so, why? Is it because you're "kindred spirits" or is there a more objective, tangible reason?

Why not? I'm not asking in what way are you not a good Christian, I'm asking why not? Are you content in the spot where you are? You're quite content to rag on atheists here, is that making you a better Christian? Is the reputation of Christianity depending on everyone else?

Because my standard is very high. I try, but I probably fail to live up to it every day. And I'm not ragging on anyone.

I don't believe in God so on the basis on which I would make a good atheist, I'm still doing very well.

But, I think I'm a pretty decent (and legitimate) Human Being.

I don't know what that first part means. But I'm curious, do you try (as in, make an effort) to be a decent Human Being, or does it just come naturally to you?
 
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Davian

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