Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

[Buzzard3]

Not the topic of this thread. Start another thread if you like. This is not the topic.

Fair enough ... but this sounds a bit funny coming from someone who recently devoted considerable space to anti-Catholic rants.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

The errors of not understanding the two aspects of salvation can be summed up in briefly looking at the two biggest Christian groups (One being over 1 billion And the other being close to a billion). One group makes it all about a belief alone and the other about Works Alone (Among other problems). Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. At the heart of what is wrong with these groups in not accepting the Bible’s teaching on the two aspects of salvation is a justification to sin and not obeying God’s Word entirely and or correctly. The one group abuses God’s grace through faith, and the other does not think it exists. The one group does not see Sanctification as a part of salvation even though 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that. They do not believe works justify even though James 2:24 says that. The other group believes Sanctification for salvation but they have extra biblical beliefs in regards to holy conduct among other problems. The key here is to believe both the grace verses, and the sanctification verses. The key here is to follow the Bible alone and not some church or what men say. We will all have to give an account to God by His Word (the Bible). Can you honestly say that your church or group of believers is the narrow way or of the FEW? These are hard truths for you to either accept or reject. The choice always comes back to whether or not you believe the Bible. That is the standard by which we will be judged and not the thoughts and teachings of men (Who appear religious). So I encourage folks here to keep an open mind in looking at the Bible when you read it. Look to see if the Bible teaches two aspects of salvation. Ask God to help you find such a teaching in the Bible and He will reveal it to you. Theologians call this Initial and Final Salvation but I prefer to call it as close to how the Bible would describe it.

 

[The Righterzpen]

It seems clear from the NT that the Jewish Christians didn't think Jesus had fulfilled the entire law of Moses - for example, they kept the laws relating to diet and circumcision and expected all Jewish converts to do likewise.
Before the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) they (or at least some of them) believed Gentile converts must also keep those Mosaic laws.


In Acts 21, James - speaking on behalf of Jewish Christians who "are all zealous for the law" - is concerned by the rumour that Paul is teaching "all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs".

In Galatians 2, Peter didn't want to be seen eating with the Gentile Christians because he feared "the circumcision party" - Jewish Christians visiting from Jerusalem who were under James, who would have come down heavily on Peter if they saw him eating "unclean" Gentile food.
Paul accused Peter, Barnabas (a Jewish Christian) and the visiting Jews of acting "insincerely" because they evidently began insisting that the Antioch Gentile Christians "live like Jews” (Gal 2:14).

Paul, who vehemently opposed circumcision for Christians, had Timothy - a Christian - circumcised "because of the Jews". Timothy's mother was Jewish, so the Jews would have considered him Jewish by law. (Acts 16:1-3)

Well it's certainly true that there was a lot of confusion in the early church and I'm sure there were people who sincerely believed they should follow dietary laws and circumcision. Although it is also quite clear that the apostles understood these things weren't necessary.

The irony is; why did Paul take a Nazarite vow and to go into the temple. It's clear from Acts 21 that he wasn't suppose to go into Jerusalem period; from that point on. Paul of course didn't listen and the Romans were actually the ones who saved his butt from the riotous crowd.

Then that incident between Paul and Peter in Antioch. Paul basically told Peter that if he continues in this dietary law / circumcision that basically he'd be reprobate. So though a lot of people believed these things; that didn't make them right. That's pretty clear in the NT.

 

[Buzzard3]

Studying the Church fathers and actual history gains a much better understanding of Catholicism then does frequenting anti-Catholic websites.

What? Are you saying Christianity existed before the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century?

 

[Buzzard3]

Why do you assume this would be different than what's written in the law; further added onto by what Jesus explained himself?

If your claim that "morality remains a product of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the believer" (post 244),

(a) no Christian would need to read the Bible to know what is moral and what isn't - the Holy Spirit would download everything that needs to be known about right and wrong (ie, doctrine) straight into the mind and heart of every believer; and

(b) all Christians would receive exactly the same download and thus believe and preach exactly the same doctrines.

But that clearly isn't what happens.

 

[The Righterzpen]

(a) no Christian would need to read the Bible to know what is moral and what isn't - the Holy Spirit would download everything that needs to be known about right and wrong (ie, doctrine) straight into the mind and heart of every believer; and

What do you do with Romans 2:14 than? If they don't have the law; yet obey it, how do they know it? (The answer to that is that part of being created in God's image is that all humans have a conscience.

And as far as your second objection; the answer to that is both ignorance and sin. None of us are omniscient; we aren't going to know everything. Even Jesus in the flesh wasn't omniscient. The fact that the Holy Spirit has "downloaded" the "law of love" (or "law of Christ") is the drive to the willingness to contemplate and obey a higher morality.

The other "this world" factor is circumstances that are often outside of the control of the individual. Their aptitudes, interest, education, raw "IQ potential", the era they live in, the country they are born in, where on the "social ladder" they are in their society. Even whether or not a person is male or female. (Females in a lot of societies are not allowed the same educational opportunities as males.) There's even actually racial differences. Africans raised in Africa have an average IQ of 85. The average European descended person has an IQ of about 100 and the average far east Asian has an IQ of 115. And all of that is environmental adaptation differences. Africans have the smallest and lightest brains; but they also have the most efficient nervous systems. Whereas far east Asians is the exact opposite.

So thus, God works within the "real time factors" inherent in this created cosmos that was corruptible to begin with. So, even as things are "perfectly downloaded" into the genetic matrix of humanity; we can't get away from the temporal reality of the created beings we are. We're not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal or eternal. And because God created a cosmos that was not the incarnation of Himself; this is why the fall happened to begin with. The cosmos could be overcome by the knowledge of good and evil; and that's exactly what happened.

So yes, everything God did was in accordance with His holiness; but He chose from this onset, not to create a cosmos that was incorruptible. On the other side of Judegement Day the cosmos will be incorruptible!

(b) all Christians would receive exactly the same download and thus believe and preach exactly the same doctrines.

Again, this isn't because God is somehow at fault. There is sin in this world. Sin creates division. Sin creates confusion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What do you do with Romans 2:14 than? If they don't have the law; yet obey it, how do they know it? (The answer to that is that part of being created in God's image is that all humans have a conscience.

And as far as your second objection; the answer to that is both ignorance and sin. None of us are omniscient; we aren't going to know everything. Even Jesus in the flesh wasn't omniscient. The fact that the Holy Spirit has "downloaded" the "law of love" (or "law of Christ") is the drive to the willingness to contemplate and obey a higher morality.

The other "this world" factor is circumstances that are often outside of the control of the individual. Their aptitudes, interest, education, raw "IQ potential", the era they live in, the country they are born in, where on the "social ladder" they are in their society. Even whether or not a person is male or female. (Females in a lot of societies are not allowed the same educational opportunities as males.) There's even actually racial differences. Africans raised in Africa have an average IQ of 85. The average European descended person has an IQ of about 100 and the average far east Asian has an IQ of 115. And all of that is environmental adaptation differences. Africans have the smallest and lightest brains; but they also have the most efficient nervous systems. Whereas far east Asians is the exact opposite.

So thus, God works within the "real time factors" inherent in this created cosmos that was corruptible to begin with. So, even as things are "perfectly downloaded" into the genetic matrix of humanity; we can't get away from the temporal reality of the created beings we are. We're not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal or eternal. And because God created a cosmos that was not the incarnation of Himself; this is why the fall happened to begin with. The cosmos could be overcome by the knowledge of good and evil; and that's exactly what happened.

So yes, everything God did was in accordance with His holiness; but He chose from this onset, not to create a cosmos that was incorruptible. On the other side of Judegement Day the cosmos will be incorruptible!


Again, this isn't because God is somehow at fault. There is sin in this world. Sin creates division. Sin creates confusion.

There are actual specific commands and instructions we would not automatically believe and do without the Bible. The Bible is how we have faith in Jesus for salvation to begin with.

Romans 2:14 is talking about the moral law of the Gentiles that is hardwired in them (like do not murder, steal, etcetera). Just turn on the news and you will see the latest on such matters. This does not mean unbelieving Gentiles will keep all of the commands of Christ like believing in Jesus, repentance, and loving the brethren, etc.

There are even doctrines you have to accept as a part of salvation. For one example, Paul warns that to deny the bodily resurrection of believers is akin to denying the resurrection (See 1 Corinthians 15). Obviously if a person denies the resurrection, they are rejecting the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Thus, they would not be saved.

So when Christians say dumb things like all we need to do to be saved is believe on the finish work of the cross, they do not actually know what the Bible says.

 

[Buzzard3]

The errors of not understanding the two aspects of salvation can be summed up in briefly looking at the two biggest Christian groups (One being over 1 billion And the other being close to a billion). One group makes it all about a belief alone and the other about Works Alone (Among other problems).

I'm wondering which large church preaches "Works Alone". I've never heard of such a thing.

Surely you don't mean the Catholic Church ... you couldn't possibly be that misguided.

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it.

How many is "few"? Those who make it to Heaven form "a great multitude which no man could number" (Rev 7:9).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How many is "few"? Those who make it to Heaven form "a great multitude which no man could number" (Rev 7:9).

In Matthew 7:14: We learn that when Jesus refers to the few be there that find life, this would be in context to people who are professing to be believers. No atheists, agnostics, or pagan religionists is in view. So Jesus is talking about the few in the sphere of Christianity. If you were to Google the largest denominations in Christianity, this would be of the many because they are numbered in the billion range.

 

[Buzzard3]

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself.

Sounds like excellent advice ... which is in accordance with Eph 4:11-16, which says it's the CHURCH that provides correct doctrine (which of course includes the correct interpretation of Scripture):

"And his [Christ] gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles."

"the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1Tim 3:15)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sounds like excellent advice ... which is in accordance with Eph 4:11-16, which says it's the CHURCH that provides correct doctrine (which of course includes the correct interpretation of Scripture):

"And his [Christ] gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles."

"the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1Tim 3:15)

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

We are living in the last days where men have departed from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 3:1-9
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

 

[Buzzard3]

If anyone preaches another gospel they are accursed (Galatians 1:8). So we have to make sure we are giving folks the gospel as taught in Scripture (Which is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Then there is the warning to continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off just like the Jews were caught off (See: Romans 11:22). Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So both aspects of salvation are equally important and should not be neglected.

So you're preaching salvation through faith and works ... good, that is correct doctrine.

But many today believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. So to give up sin is a hard thing. Sin is pleasurable to people. Sin is a large part why they cannot see what the Scriptures actually say on this matter.

You made some valid points. Everyone has at least one sinful weakness that provides some sort of pleasure - a vice that might be called an evil pleasure. If sin wasn't pleasurable, it would be easy to avoid.

A Christian is called to sacrifice their pleasurable sin in order to please God:

"present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God" (Romans 12:1). This is sanctification

What is the believer willing to give up in order to gain something infinitely greater? ... God wants to know.

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15). This is sanctification.

Of course, many today think God did not keep His words and or that sin is normal.

"do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2)

So they have two major things working against them already.

It's possible for a Christian to become a "slave to sin". If one keeps feeding sin, it can become a powerful addiction.

 

[Buzzard3]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

We are living in the last days where men have departed from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 3:1-9
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

Whatever that means ....

 

[Buzzard3]

What do you do with Romans 2:14 than? If they don't have the law; yet obey it, how do they know it? (The answer to that is that part of being created in God's image is that all humans have a conscience.

Yes ... but receiving "all the truth" (John 16:13) from the Holy Spirit is a different matter entirely, which is what I'm getting at.

Who has "all the truth"? Where can "all the truth" be found? Can you tell me?

I've been asking Protestants this question for years and I've yet to receive a useful answer *. They seem very reluctant to claim that anyone has "all the truth" ... but Jesus promised it, so it must exist somewhere and it must be accessible and knowable.

* "The Bible is all the truth" is not a useful answer, because the Bible produces endless and often conflicting interpretations - sola scriptura is hardly a recipe for "all the truth" - in fact, it's a disaster. Furthermore, nowhere does the Bible say it's "all the truth".

 

[The Righterzpen]

Yes ... but receiving "all the truth" (John 16:13) from the Holy Spirit is a different matter entirely, which is what I'm getting at.

Who has "all the truth"? Where can "all the truth" be found? Can you tell me?

I've been asking Protestants this question for years and I've yet to receive a useful answer *. They seem very reluctant to claim that anyone has "all the truth" ... but Jesus promised it, so it must exist somewhere and it must be accessible and knowable.

* "The Bible is all the truth" is not a useful answer, because the Bible produces endless and often conflicting interpretations - sola scriptura is hardly a recipe for "all the truth" - in fact, it's a disaster. Furthermore, nowhere does the Bible say it's "all the truth".

 

[The Righterzpen]

@Buzzard3
(I pushed a button that caused your quote to post before I got a chance to write my response.)

Define what you think “all the truth” means?

It certainly doesn’t mean we will be omniscient. The word “all” in the Greek there is an “all” of a kind or distinction. It’s the same word as in 1 Timothy 2:4 “….. all men be saved..” and 1 Timothy 2:6 “….ransom for all…”

And we know based on the rest of the Bible that word “all” there doesn’t mean every single human being that ever lived.

So to be “…led into all truth” doesn’t mean that all truth will be received by men with sinless understanding either. Just because God “reveals” doesn’t mean we “get” the full intent of what is revealed either.

So you are correct that Scripture doesn’t say it reveals “all truth”; nor does it claim to contain all truth that can be known. (Thus your complaint against Protestants.) But Scripture doesn’t claim that the church is the interpreter of all truth that the Holy Spirit is revealing either.

So if you want my interpretation of what I think that verse means? It seems most logical to me to say that; the first step in the path to knowing all truth starts with when the Holy Spirit regenerates someone. The end of that path, will only be known on the other side of eternity.

The whole of all truth God wishes for believers to know; will only be known on the other side of the recreated cosmos.

Although even that does not mean we will be omniscient either!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you're preaching salvation through faith and works ... good, that is correct doctrine.

I created a thread on this so as not to derail this one.

Baptism is a work.

Baptism is a Work: According to the Bible, I believe it implies that baptism is a work. I say this because there are certain Christian groups who claim that water baptism is faith and not a work (Or a work of faith). In other words, there are certain Christian groups who claim that water...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Buzzard3]

I created a thread on this so as not to derail this one.

How is talking about "faith and works" derailing this thread? The thread is about the two aspects of salvation - faith and sanctification - which is another way of saying, faith and works.

"a man is justified [saved] by works [sanctification] and not by faith alone" (James 2:24)

"you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1Cor 6:11)

 

[Buzzard3]

I pushed a button that caused your quote to post before I got a chance to write my response

I will try to find it in my heart to forgive your egregious mistake, but it will be difficult.

 

[Buzzard3]

I created a thread on this so as not to derail this one.

In light of your hatred of Catholicism, I completely understand your aversion to the term, "faith and works". However, your aversion is misplaced, for that term is thoroughly biblical:

"a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2 24).

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works" (James 2:21-22)