Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[FreeGrace2]

I read the verses. They are the same. And the context doesn't support your assertion. Maybe some exegesis from you is required.

I gave it. Context indicates missionary and witnessing activity. And Jesus referred to the masses as "sheep without a shepherd".

Would Jesus ever describe His sheep that way?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 13:20
New King James Version (NKJV)


that shepherd of 'the sheep'

OK, so who are the "sheep without a shepherd" in Matt 9:36 and Mark 6:34?

 

[Hammster]

In fact, you haven't shown otherwise. And I gave supporting Scripture.


Hardly. He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.

Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.

#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)

You haven't refuted this.

yes, I have, by pointing out a few things that you've continued to ignore or gloss over.

Again, actually reading the passages BEFORE making such an error in opinion would be helpful.

But, let's get to the bottom line here. Just what did Jesus mean by "sheep without a shepherd" in those 2 passages that were apparently not reviewed?


So, what is this; theology by democracy? Please, just answer my question above. That will suffice. So far, you've ignored it.

Not nobody is voting. But Jesus often used references that the Jews would understand readily. Sheep is one of them given the number of times He uses that reference.

 

[Hammster]

I gave it. Context indicates missionary and witnessing activity. And Jesus referred to the masses as "sheep without a shepherd".

Would Jesus ever describe His sheep that way?

You've not even quoted the scripture. How can you say you've given context?

 

[sdowney717]

OK, so who are the "sheep without a shepherd" in Matt 9:36 and Mark 6:34?

They were wandering and lost sheep, His sheep, the sheep. So then He ministered unto them having compassion and mercy for the sheep who are His sheep. Who have been abandoned by hirelings, bad shepherds have abandoned the sheep.
Matthew 9:36
New King James Version (NKJV)

36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary[a] and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd.

Sheep without a shepherd hearkens back to Israel and bad shepherds who lead His people astray.

Jeremiah 50

6 “My people have been lost sheep.
Their shepherds have led them astray;
They have turned them away on the mountains.
They have gone from mountain to hill;
They have forgotten their resting place.
7 All who found them have devoured them;
And their adversaries said, ‘We have not offended,
Because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice,
The Lord, the hope of their fathers.’

 

[Hammster]

Hebrews 13:20
New King James Version (NKJV)


that shepherd of 'the sheep'

As has been pointed out ad nauseum by FG, THE sheep mean every person who's ever lived.

 

[sdowney717]

As has been pointed out ad nauseum by FG, THE sheep mean every person who's ever lived.

I know, Jesus is that great shepherd of the sheep.

That type of admission to change one's mind about the sheep would mean to change ones mind about election.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.

Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.

#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)

You haven't refuted this.

yes, I have, by pointing out a few things that you've continued to ignore or gloss over.

The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.

Not nobody is voting.

You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.

But Jesus often used references that the Jews would understand readily. Sheep is one of them given the number of times He uses that reference.

His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".

And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.

Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You've not even quoted the scripture. How can you say you've given context?

Too much effort to look up the passages yourself?? OK.

Matthew 9:36
Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.
Matthew 9:37
Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Matthew 9:38
“Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

The context here is obviously related to missionary activity and witnessing.

We don't witness to believers, but to unbelievers.

Mark 6:34
When Jesus went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and He began to teach them many things.

Since Jesus Himself described the crowds as "sheep without a shepherd", and you believe that He died for the sheep, what was He referring to here?

Now, I've quoted the passages, and given context. Please answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They were wandering and lost sheep, His sheep, the sheep. So then He ministered unto them having compassion and mercy for the sheep who are His sheep. Who have been abandoned by hirelings, bad shepherds have abandoned the sheep.

So, where is the evidence that the entire crowd believed in Him?

Matthew 9:36
New King James Version (NKJV)

Sheep without a shepherd hearkens back to Israel and bad shepherds who lead His people astray.

What evidence is there that the crowds all believed in Him?

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.

Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.

#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)

You haven't refuted this.

The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.


You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.


His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".

And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.

Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?

Since Jesus' disciples had only only seen sheep used as referring to God's people, why would they suddenly understand that sheep mean all of humanity?

 

[Hammster]

Too much effort to look up the passages yourself?? OK.

Matthew 9:36
Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.
Matthew 9:37
Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Matthew 9:38
“Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

The context here is obviously related to missionary activity and witnessing.

We don't witness to believers, but to unbelievers.

Mark 6:34
When Jesus went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and He began to teach them many things.

Since Jesus Himself described the crowds as "sheep without a shepherd", and you believe that He died for the sheep, what was He referring to here?

Now, I've quoted the passages, and given context. Please answer.

What people did He see? A local gathering, or all of humanity?

 

[THIS]

I didn't ask that. I asked if you had stopped sinning. You're dodging the question.

Of course, I have stopped sinning. I am not dodging the question. Why do you have to make false accusations?

 

[THIS]

hammster said this:
I guess we are supposed to believe that the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep stopped short of giving His life to actually save them. That's such a poor picture of a "good" shepherd.

Actually, to be correct, anyone can be "His" sheep. He died for the sheep, not just His sheep. That means He died for everyone, as Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14,15 actually say.

Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, but we have to become his sheep!

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[THIS]

Please refer to a lexicon. He used the present tense. He was not speaking only of his past.

Paul was speaking in the present tense about his past tense.

 

[THIS]

in the immediate context of John 10, where Jesus says He is the door of the sheep, please find any verse that indicates there are people who aren't sheep.

What Jesus did describe in this context:
#1 the sheep for whom He would die
#2 My sheep which hear His voice
#3 other sheep of Mine which also hear His voice
#4 not of My sheep who don't hear His voice. Doesn't say they aren't sheep, but just that they aren't His sheep.


Still sheep. And you have acknowledged that these other sheep have a chance to be saved. I believe every human being has a chance to be saved.

Every human has a chance to be saved, but they have to become as sheep.


They have to humble themselves and repent.

 

[THIS]

All sheep will be saved. Truth, unless you believe Jesus to be a bad shepherd.

We can become sheep.

We have to believe and obey.

We have to believe and repent.

Do what Jesus says to do.

He is the way.

If you do not want to do what Jesus says, it is because you love your sin more than you love His Truth.

All can become sheep.

Anyone can become thirsty.

When you are thirsty, come to the Lord.

 

[THIS]

After we are saved, we have to keep obeying Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

We can become sheep.

We have to believe and obey.

We have to believe and repent.

Do what Jesus says to do.

He is the way.

If you do not want to do what Jesus says, it is because you love your sin more than you love His Truth.

All can become sheep.

Anyone can become thirsty.

When you are thirsty, come to the Lord.

Sheep will do what He says. They hear His voice and obey Him.

 

[THIS]

Sheep will do what He says. They hear His voice and obey Him.

Anyone can become thirsty and be sheep.