Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[visionary]

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, not all are sheep.

in the immediate context of John 10, where Jesus says He is the door of the sheep, please find any verse that indicates there are people who aren't sheep.

What Jesus did describe in this context:
#1 the sheep for whom He would die
#2 My sheep which hear His voice
#3 other sheep of Mine which also hear His voice
#4 not of My sheep who don't hear His voice. Doesn't say they aren't sheep, but just that they aren't His sheep.

The other sheep are the Gentiles that would have a chance to be saved when Jesus was crucified.

Still sheep. And you have acknowledged that these other sheep have a chance to be saved. I believe every human being has a chance to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul was speaking of his testimony.

Please refer to a lexicon. He used the present tense. He was not speaking only of his past.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not live in sin. I have stopped living in sin.

I didn't ask that. I asked if you had stopped sinning. You're dodging the question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

hammster said this:
I guess we are supposed to believe that the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep stopped short of giving His life to actually save them. That's such a poor picture of a "good" shepherd.

We become sheep when we listen to Jesus and obey him.

Anyone can become sheep.

Actually, to be correct, anyone can be "His" sheep. He died for the sheep, not just His sheep. That means He died for everyone, as Heb 2:9 and 2 Cor 5:14,15 actually say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All sheep will be saved. Truth, unless you believe Jesus to be a bad shepherd.

Incorrect. Jesus never said that, nor any other inspired writer.

This is what He actually said:

John 10:9
“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Then He said this:

John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Nothing about "His" sheep. Just "the" sheep. And if anyone (of the sheep) enters the door through Him, will be saved.

It's all quite clear and very simple.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jacob

I am new here in the forum. I stumbled onto your thread and found it very interesting. You said,

"When I started out learning scripture I got the wrong idea of salvation, preachers commonly preach on:

- Once Saved Always Saved - LIES
- Works are nothing, faith is everything - LIES
- God forgives ALL sin, no matter how many - LIES"

You say that believing these so called "lies" led you into a backslidden condition. I received the Lord some 55 years ago and was told exactly the opposite. I was taught:

"-You can loose your salvation - (A LIE IMO)
-Works are what keeps your salvation. - (A LIE IMO)
-God does not forgive ALL your sin. - (A LIE IMO)"

I was a lustful young man in those days and couldn't seem to refrain from certain sins. I felt that surely I must be lost whenever I succumbed to certain obvious sins. It was almost constant anguish in my soul - being saved for a time and being lost again for a time until I had regained my salvation.

I remember very consciously walking away from the Lord (back sliding as you call it). That condition lasted for some 15 years as I became a rather vocal agnostic until in my 30's.

When I returned to the Lord I determined to make it my goal to find out exactly what the basics of salvation were and were not. I found out through systematic scripture study that I had been lied to and that those lies had cost me 15 years of my spiritual life.

That's why I am now so forceful in my insistance of correct doctrine such as:

- Once Saved Always Saved
- We are save by grace alone
- God forgives ALL sin, no matter how many

That's my response to your dilema.
And I AM VERY SYPATHETIC TO YOUR DILEMA.
MARVIN

 

[sdowney717]

Incorrect. Jesus never said that, nor any other inspired writer.

This is what He actually said:

John 10:9
“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Then He said this:

John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Nothing about "His" sheep. Just "the" sheep. And if anyone (of the sheep) enters the door through Him, will be saved.

It's all quite clear and very simple.

That they enter in and are saved, just proves they are the sheep.
Non sheep wont listen to Christ, wont follow Christ, wont be obedient to Christ, so wont enter through Christ.
And that proves they are not the sheep.

The sheep enter through Christ because, Christ has propitiated their sins, enabling them to enter through Him.

Christ has also revealed both himself and God to them, so that they know Him, no doubts about that, Luke 10. To know God and Jesus is to have eternal life. John 17.

 

[sdowney717]

All sheep will be saved. Truth, unless you believe Jesus to be a bad shepherd.

yes, we believe what Jesus says, I suppose not all do.
None of the sheep are lost, all of the sheep receive eternal life.

He raises up all that the Father gives Him into the age of the Resurrection to come.

John 6

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 17

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[stan1953]

I guess we are supposed to believe that the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep stopped short of giving His life to actually save them. That's such a poor picture of a "good" shepherd.

How is this any different than saying only certain sheep get saved?
Jesus gave his life for the SIN of the WORLD. I don't read anywhere in the NT that He did that for a chosen few. FYI, Jesus judges who is a sheep and who is a goat WHEN He returns. I'm pretty sure most of the goats are not very evident today, but as soon as they die, they will be.
Jesus is the GOOD shepherd because He gave His life.

 

[stan1953]

All sheep will be saved. Truth, unless you believe Jesus to be a bad shepherd.

WHERE does the NT say this?

 

[sdowney717]

How is this any different than saying only certain sheep get saved?
Jesus gave his life for the SIN of the WORLD. I don't read anywhere in the NT that He did that for a chosen few. FYI, Jesus judges who is a sheep and who is a goat WHEN He returns. I'm pretty sure most of the goats are not very evident today, but as soon as they die, they will be.
Jesus is the GOOD shepherd because He gave His life.

I came across this long winded article about propitiation and 1 John 2
Propitiation in I John 2:2 by Dr. Gary D. Long

Gives various understanding for 'world'



1 John 2
New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

And this commentary, short and sweet.

2:2 propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice to God meant to take away the enmity brought by sin between God and the worshiper. Only Christ can be an effective propitiation.

of the whole world. Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient not only for John and his immediate community, but is valid anywhere in the world. It is a sacrifice that requires no addition or supplement.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That they enter in and are saved, just proves they are the sheep.

No, they would be HIS sheep, not THE sheep. He also said HIS sheep hear His voice. Nothing about THE sheep hearing His voice.

Non sheep wont listen to Christ, wont follow Christ, wont be obedient to Christ, so wont enter through Christ.

Non issue, as well. There is nothing about "non sheep" in His context.

And that proves they are not the sheep.

How many reminders are needed in order to get the point?

Jesus identified these:
#1 THE sheep for whom He would die (humanity)
#2 HIS sheep who hear His voice (believing Jews)
#3 OTHER sheep who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#4 NOT of My sheep who don't hear His voice (all unbelievers)

Where is there any mention of 'non-sheep'?

The sheep enter through Christ because, Christ has propitiated their sins, enabling them to enter through Him.

Nope, that's NOT what Jesus said. He said He is the door (of the sheep gate). And all who enter through Him are saved. Only His sheep go through Him, the door, and are saved. Nothing about becoming a sheep here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

yes, we believe what Jesus says, I suppose not all do.
None of the sheep are lost, all of the sheep receive eternal life.

In the context of John 10, ONLY HIS sheep will be saved. Not all sheep. He died for THE sheep, which means all sheep, not just His.

 

[Jack Terrence]

In the context of John 10, ONLY HIS sheep will be saved. Not all sheep. He died for THE sheep, which means all sheep, not just His.

But He did NOT die for the goats. Therefore, your distinction between "His" sheep and "the" sheep is totally artificial. They are one and the same.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But He did NOT die for the goats.

Where were goats mentioned in the context of John 10?

Therefore, your distinction between "His" sheep and "the" sheep is totally artificial.

What is totally artificial is the claim that there is no distinction between "His" and "the". Jesus made 4 distinctions in Jn 10.

If Jesus had simply said that He would lay down His life for His sheep, there would be no debate.

What He did indicate is that those (sheep) who enter through the door (Himself, through faith) will be saved.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Where were goats mentioned in the context of John 10?

So you're saying that Christ died for a group that we know exists just because they are not mentioned? This is what you consider to be scholarly debate?

What is totally artificial is the claim that there is no distinction between "His" and "the". Jesus made 4 distinctions in Jn 10.

Nope! It is YOU who made the distinctions. The cultists employ your same method.

If Jesus had simply said that He would lay down His life for His sheep, there would be no debate.

THE sheep are HIS sheep.

What He did indicate is that those (sheep) who enter through the door (Himself, through faith) will be saved.

Yes, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life."

Therefore, those who enter through the door are His sheep. They enter the door because they hear His voice. They hear His voice because they are His sheep.

 

[sdowney717]

So you're saying that Christ died for a group that we know exists just because they are not mentioned? This is what you consider to be scholarly debate?

Nope! It is YOU who made the distinctions. The cultists employ your same method.

THE sheep are HIS sheep.

Yes, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life."

Therefore, those who enter through the door are His sheep. They enter the door because they hear His voice. They hear His voice because they are His sheep.

Yup,
Jesus uses the term sheep in just 2 basic ways,
a. the, his, my, sheep
b. and not of my sheep.
Those not of my sheep are those who dont believe in Jesus.
Which Jesus tells us further on.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

No way does this imply they were any kind of sheep.

 

[stan1953]

I came across this long winded article about propitiation and 1 John 2
Propitiation in I John 2:2 by Dr. Gary D. Long
Gives various understanding for 'world'
1 John 2
New King James Version (NKJV)
And this commentary, short and sweet.

I'm pretty clear on what John 3:16 means, and this doesn't really answer my questions to Hammster.

 

[stan1953]

Jesus said those words during His Galilean ministry. Peter said that Jesus went only to where the Jews lived (Acts 10:39).

So everything Jesus said was to the Jews and we non-Jews should ignore it? That'll surprise a lot of Calvinists.