Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[sdowney717]

Please understand that the word "might" here is not used in the sense that we understand it today, as a possibility. English words and usage have changed over the centuries.

You are absolutely correct!

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

Curious how you all read this.

'So that through him all might believe' Is the 'him' John or the Lord?

Do you think
'So that through John all might believe'
or
'So that through Jesus all might believe'

 

[sdowney717]

everyone sleeping?
All through him might believe, must be Christ the him, John is just bearing witness to the light.

'So that through Jesus all might believe'

Lets think about this. Jesus is the author of our faith.
It is through Jesus then that all might believe.
Sounds very Calvinistic to me.
If Jesus is the one creating the belief, giving the gift of faith.

Jesus said without Me you can do nothing. So I dont see any conflicts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Contradictory statements, unless you believe everyone is a sheep, but then why the parable of the Sheep AND the goats? Things that make you go hmmm...

I don't mix and match parables. Staying with in the confines of what Jesus said in John 10, He said He would die for THE sheep. He then noted there were:
#1 My sheep
#2 other sheep of Mine
#3 not of My sheep, said to the unbelieving crowd.

It is instructive that He didn't describe that crowd as goats, or anything else. Just "you are not of My sheep".

 

[Hammster]

Rather, quite underwhelming. In the local context of John 10, the sheep refers to humanity.

Your claim that my argument is weak semantics is less than weak. Your claims do not prove a thing. Where is your proof?

Except there's more to it than just John 10. Jesus uses sheep more than once. To say that He uses sheep in one context here, and in another context elsewhere is stretching it, especially considering that sheep are used to illustrate God's people throughout scripture. Jesus listeners, the Jews, would know this.

 

[Hammster]

It would be helpful to actually read what I post before you make such a mistake. I specifically noted v.7-11. I never said anything about "all of Jn 10".

So we can start at verse 7? Okay.

So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. (John 10:7, 8 NASB)

Notice that thieves and robbers are not sheep.

 

[Hammster]

We aren't talking about universalism (which seems to be a pet form of deflection of yours) and I initially asked if the lost sheep are saved....so are they?

I didn't know if you thought everyone was a sheep. It seems to be common amongst non-Calvinists.

All of the lost sheep will be saved.

 

[sdowney717]

The Holy Spirit given prophecy of Caiaphas points to the lost sheep scattered abroad Christ will gather into the one flock He tells us of in John 10.

49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us[e] that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,

52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

God wont leave any of the children of God not gathered.

Now who are the children of God?, those who hear God speak, those who are the sheep they hear the voice of the shepherd who is Christ. If your of God, you hear God speak. Your of God if God gave you to Christ. John 17. This means He foreknew and predestined you before you existed, before you had a will. He called, justified and glorified you so that where He is you may be also.

The children of God are those scattered abroad. They had not yet heard of Christ, but are already known to God who they are. They WILL be gathered into one flock with one shepherd.

Romans 9:8
New King James Version (NKJV)

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

The children of God are the children of the promise. They are Abraham's seed that Jesus helps. They are the lost sheep of the house of Israel to which He is sent to save.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[f] 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to that promise. .
And Abraham's seed are those Jesus helps interceding for them to gain eternal life.

Heb 2

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

It is for the children of God that Jesus makes propitiation of their sins. They are forgiven and live with Christ forever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Except there's more to it than just John 10. Jesus uses sheep more than once.

Sure, but it's not nice to mix and match different parables. They all aren't teaching the exact same thing, right?

To say that He uses sheep in one context here, and in another context elsewhere is stretching it, especially considering that sheep are used to illustrate God's people throughout scripture. Jesus listeners, the Jews, would know this.

Each context is unique to itself. If your "rule" were correct, then Jesus would have simply called that crowd "goats", rather than saying they were "not of My sheep". But He didn't. So that rule is bogus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So we can start at verse 7? Okay.

So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. (John 10:7, 8 NASB)

Notice that thieves and robbers are not sheep.

Why can't they refer to demonic influences that are trying to deceive the sheep?

btw, being the "door of the sheep", and the fact that he would die for the sheep, seems to me that this perfectly aligns with Jn 14:6 - "no one comes to the Father except through Me." He is the door to God the Father. For humanity. No one (from humanity) comes to the Father except through the Son.

Quite consistent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't know if you thought everyone was a sheep. It seems to be common amongst non-Calvinists.

All of the lost sheep will be saved.

Sure. What verses says that?

 

[THIS]

Once again, nobody becomes a sheep. That is nowhere found in scripture.

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (John 10:25-28 NASB)

Sheep hear Him. Everyone else does not.

Anyone can become a sheep.

Israel was called a heifer, and was told to be a sheep, to repent.

 

[THIS]

No. All are sheep. It's just that some are His, as He Himself noted. Some were "not of His sheep", and there were "other sheep". It's all in Jn 10.

The point is that Jesus would die for the sheep. If He had said He would lay down his life for His sheep, then the Calvinists would have an argument.

No, not all are sheep.

The other sheep are the Gentiles that would have a chance to be saved when Jesus was crucified.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[THIS]

He was speaking in the PRESENT TENSE when he wrote that.


He was a saved sinner by grace. That was his point.

Paying attention to the verb tenses helps a lot in understanding what was written.

Paul was speaking of his testimony.

 

[THIS]

Just a question for you: have you stopped sinning?

I do not live in sin. I have stopped living in sin.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

everyone sleeping?
All through him might believe, must be Christ the him, John is just bearing witness to the light.

'So that through Jesus all might believe'

Lets think about this. Jesus is the author of our faith.
It is through Jesus then that all might believe.
Sounds very Calvinistic to me.
If Jesus is the one creating the belief, giving the gift of faith.

Jesus said without Me you can do nothing. So I dont see any conflicts.

How is Jesus the finisher or completer of our faith??

 

[THIS]

I guess we are supposed to believe that the Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep stopped short of giving His life to actually save them. That's such a poor picture of a "good" shepherd.

We become sheep when we listen to Jesus and obey him.

Anyone can become sheep.

 

[THIS]

everyone sleeping?
All through him might believe, must be Christ the him, John is just bearing witness to the light.

'So that through Jesus all might believe'

Lets think about this. Jesus is the author of our faith.
It is through Jesus then that all might believe.
Sounds very Calvinistic to me.
If Jesus is the one creating the belief, giving the gift of faith.

Jesus said without Me you can do nothing. So I dont see any conflicts.

All have the chance to believe. Jesus is the Savior of all, and especially of those who believe.

Some just love darkness more than the light.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

 

[THIS]

I didn't know if you thought everyone was a sheep. It seems to be common amongst non-Calvinists.

All of the lost sheep will be saved.

If we hold onto our faith and obey Jesus.

Of course, people can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.

God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.

 

[Hammster]

If we hold onto our faith and obey Jesus.

Of course, people can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.

God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.

All sheep will be saved. Truth, unless you believe Jesus to be a bad shepherd.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Jacob

I am new here in the forum. I stumbled onto your thread and found it very interesting. You said,

"When I started out learning scripture I got the wrong idea of salvation, preachers commonly preach on:

- Once Saved Always Saved - LIES
- Works are nothing, faith is everything - LIES
- God forgives ALL sin, no matter how many - LIES"

You say that believing these so called "lies" led you into a backslidden condition. I received the Lord some 55 years ago and was told exactly the opposite. I was taught:

"-You can loose your salvation - (A LIE IMO)
-Works are what keeps your salvation. - (A LIE IMO)
-God does not forgive ALL your sin. - (A LIE IMO)"

I was a lustful young man in those days and couldn't seem to refrain from certain sins. I felt that surely I must be lost whenever I succumbed to certain obvious sins. It was almost constant anguish in my soul - being saved for a time and being lost again for a time until I had regained my salvation.

I remember very consciously walking away from the Lord (back sliding as you call it). That condition lasted for some 15 years as I became a rather vocal agnostic until in my 30's.

When I returned to the Lord I determined to make it my goal to find out exactly what the basics of salvation were and were not. I found out through systematic scripture study that I had been lied to and that those lies had cost me 15 years of my spiritual life.

That's why I am now so forceful in my insistance of correct doctrine such as:

- Once Saved Always Saved
- We are save by grace alone
- God forgives ALL sin, no matter how many

That's my response to your dilema.
And I AM VERY SYPATHETIC TO YOUR DILEMA.
MARVIN