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In both Matt 9:36 and Mark 6:34, Jesus refers to mankind in general as sheep.
To say "not of My sheep" in NO WAY implies that they weren't sheep. They just weren't of His. That is crystal clear.
I get a very strong impression that words only mean what Calvinists need them to mean.
Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, but we have to become his sheep!
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Eph 2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord:
and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Blessing and Conflict at Antioch
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue,[j] the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:
‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”[k]
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
This is what I said and asked:Since Jesus' disciples had only only seen sheep used as referring to God's people, why would they suddenly understand that sheep mean all of humanity?
Haven't you read either passage? That would be a good start. Don't take my word for anything, as you don't anyway.What people did He see? A local gathering, or all of humanity?
This is what I said and asked:
I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.
Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.
#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)
You haven't refuted this.
The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.
You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.
His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".
And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.
Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?
What did Jesus mean by the phrase "sheep without a shepherd"?
And your deflecting question is in error. I have given 2 passages where Jesus looked at the crowds and described them as "sheep without a shepherd".
Why would the disciples think Jesus would mean "God's people" when He described them as sheep without a shepherd?
How can "God's people" NOT have a shepherd?
Please respond to these questions. Or at least admit that you have no answer for them.
We have the sure word already about 'the sheep.'our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep
And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.
If you have stopped sinning, you have made God out to be a liar, which is sin, of course.Of course, I have stopped sinning. I am not dodging the question. Why do you have to make false accusations?
No, we must become HIS sheep, by going through the "door" of Jn 10.Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, but we have to become his sheep!
Amen!! Tell that to the Calvinists.1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
With respect, that is utterly ridiculous. There is no such thing.Paul was speaking in the present tense about his past tense.
No, they have to enter the sheep fold through the "door", which is faith in Christ. Then they become HIS sheep.Every human has a chance to be saved, but they have to become as sheep.
Uh, no, they have to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior.They have to humble themselves and repent.
No, we must become HIS sheep, by going through the "door" of Jn 10.
Amen!! Tell that to the Calvinists.
2:2 propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice to God meant to take away the enmity brought by sin between God and the worshiper. Only Christ can be an effective propitiation.
of the whole world. Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient not only for John and his immediate community, but is valid anywhere in the world. It is a sacrifice that requires no addition or supplement.
Jesus used figuratively language in Matt 9:36, Mark 6:34 and John 10.To say that they were like sheep does not automatically mean they are sheep.
Your deflecting from Heb 13:20-
"our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep"
No, I'm not. John the baptizer and the Samaritans recognized as the Savior of the world. The sheep. All of them.
He described unbelievers as "not of My sheep". He didn't say they weren't sheep, just "not of My sheep".Some of those in the group Jesus taught were not the sheep, not everyone believed.
Like to mix and match parables, huh? Except it doesn't work.They are described as like sheep. Beware of those who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are raving wolves.
I know what it means.Look up what propitiation means, in 1 john 2 !
Where do you find "forgiveness" in the Strong's definition?Sinners who are unforgiven have no propitiation. Are you a universalist?
This is what I said and asked:
I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.
Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.
#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)
You haven't refuted this.
The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.
You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.
His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".
And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.
Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?
What did Jesus mean by the phrase "sheep without a shepherd"?
And your deflecting question is in error. I have given 2 passages where Jesus looked at the crowds and described them as "sheep without a shepherd".
Why would the disciples think Jesus would mean "God's people" when He described them as sheep without a shepherd?
How can "God's people" NOT have a shepherd?
Please respond to these questions. Or at least admit that you have no answer for them.
Haven't you read either passage? That would be a good start. Don't take my word for anything, as you don't anyway.
So, read the passages, and that will answer your question.
Your questions are nothing more than an obvious dodge for answering my questions.
I know what it means.
hilasmos
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation
Where do you find "forgiveness" in the Strong's definition?
Jesus Christ propitiated the Father when He paid for all the sins. He satisfied the justice of the Father by solving the sin debt of humanity.
And, no, I'm NOT a universalist.
Propitiation
"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering. In relation to soteriology, propitiation means placating or satisfying the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice of Christ."
Charles C. Ryrie (1999-01-11). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Kindle Locations 5503-5504). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition.
"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 10 says WHOEVER, not all. Please place your call again.
Since when does it matter on a forum like this whether or not one is addressed to offer a response?
Do I take him literally? Of course parables are not meant to be taken wooden literally, as though a person could be a person and literally a sheep at the same time. The symbolic language of a shepherd and sheep and goats is not literal in the strictest sense. Does that make the meaning any less clear? No, it shouldn't be that difficult, though acting on indwelling sin can and does (in one way or another) create a blinding effect on our perception and interpretation, even on Christians.
What did the concept of adoption and grating mean to the Jews around Jesus' time?
What was Peter talking about when he said: "If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way? (Acts 11:17) And WHY did he tell his audience?
Now for further context into what Christ said about "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" learn from this passage in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 21...
42 Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;4 this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits."
Tell me sir, did Christ die for those fruit trees not producing fruit? Who is it that gives growth to a fruit tree to begin with? Can the tree water itself? Does it choose the ground where it is planted? Who is it that takes away?
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