Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[sdowney717]

In both Matt 9:36 and Mark 6:34, Jesus refers to mankind in general as sheep.


To say "not of My sheep" in NO WAY implies that they weren't sheep. They just weren't of His. That is crystal clear.

I get a very strong impression that words only mean what Calvinists need them to mean.

To say that they were like sheep does not automatically mean they are sheep.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, but we have to become his sheep!

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The lie is we make ourselves sheep.
That is a human sided view and Satanic. Satan is on the side of man, not God.

We are His workmanship.

Eph 2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[sdowney717]

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord:

and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Scriptures does not say and as many as chose to believe were appointed to eternal life. Appointed -- ordained.

Note that, the many, reverse the word to fit their itching ears.

Acts 13

Blessing and Conflict at Antioch

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue,[j] the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”[k]
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since Jesus' disciples had only only seen sheep used as referring to God's people, why would they suddenly understand that sheep mean all of humanity?

This is what I said and asked:
I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.

Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.

#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)

You haven't refuted this.

The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.

You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.


His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".

And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.

Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?

What did Jesus mean by the phrase "sheep without a shepherd"?

And your deflecting question is in error. I have given 2 passages where Jesus looked at the crowds and described them as "sheep without a shepherd".

Why would the disciples think Jesus would mean "God's people" when He described them as sheep without a shepherd?

How can "God's people" NOT have a shepherd?

Please respond to these questions. Or at least admit that you have no answer for them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What people did He see? A local gathering, or all of humanity?

Haven't you read either passage? That would be a good start. Don't take my word for anything, as you don't anyway.

So, read the passages, and that will answer your question.

Your questions are nothing more than an obvious dodge for answering my questions.

 

[sdowney717]

This is what I said and asked:
I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.

Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.

#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)

You haven't refuted this.

The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.

You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.


His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".

And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.

Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?

What did Jesus mean by the phrase "sheep without a shepherd"?

And your deflecting question is in error. I have given 2 passages where Jesus looked at the crowds and described them as "sheep without a shepherd".

Why would the disciples think Jesus would mean "God's people" when He described them as sheep without a shepherd?

How can "God's people" NOT have a shepherd?

Please respond to these questions. Or at least admit that you have no answer for them.

Your deflecting from Heb 13:20

our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep

We have the sure word already about 'the sheep.'

You are deflecting bringing up verses describing 'like sheep without a shepherd.

And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.

Some of those in the group Jesus taught were not the sheep, not everyone believed. They are described as like sheep. Beware of those who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are raving wolves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course, I have stopped sinning. I am not dodging the question. Why do you have to make false accusations?

If you have stopped sinning, you have made God out to be a liar, which is sin, of course.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

By claiming to have "stopped sinning", you are in effect saying that you have no sin. The truth is not in you.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

By claiming to have "stopped sinning", you have in effect claimed that you have not sinned (since you stopped), and you have made God out to be a liar, and His Word is not in you.

The ONLY reason John wrote v.9 is BECAUSE believers continue to SIN.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 2:1-
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

His point was to sin less, not become "sinless". That's why he wrote the second sentence in v.1: "if anyone sins, we have an advocate".

It is obvious that this side of heaven, ALL believers continue to sin. Which is why we must regularly confess our sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, but we have to become his sheep!

No, we must become HIS sheep, by going through the "door" of Jn 10.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Amen!! Tell that to the Calvinists.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul was speaking in the present tense about his past tense.

With respect, that is utterly ridiculous. There is no such thing.

If he were speaking about his past, he would have used the Greek form for past tense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Every human has a chance to be saved, but they have to become as sheep.

No, they have to enter the sheep fold through the "door", which is faith in Christ. Then they become HIS sheep.

They have to humble themselves and repent.

Uh, no, they have to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

 

[sdowney717]

No, we must become HIS sheep, by going through the "door" of Jn 10.


Amen!! Tell that to the Calvinists.

Look up what propitiation means, in 1 john 2 !

2:2 propitiation. A propitiation is a sacrifice to God meant to take away the enmity brought by sin between God and the worshiper. Only Christ can be an effective propitiation.

of the whole world. Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient not only for John and his immediate community, but is valid anywhere in the world. It is a sacrifice that requires no addition or supplement.

Sinners who are unforgiven have no propitiation. Are you a universalist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

To say that they were like sheep does not automatically mean they are sheep.

Jesus used figuratively language in Matt 9:36, Mark 6:34 and John 10.

That's what analogies and figurative language is for. To make comparisons.

Did you think He was being literal when He said He would die for sheep?????

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your deflecting from Heb 13:20-
"our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep"

No, I'm not. John the baptizer and the Samaritans recognized as the Savior of the world. The sheep. All of them.

Some of those in the group Jesus taught were not the sheep, not everyone believed.

He described unbelievers as "not of My sheep". He didn't say they weren't sheep, just "not of My sheep".

They are described as like sheep. Beware of those who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are raving wolves.

Like to mix and match parables, huh? Except it doesn't work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look up what propitiation means, in 1 john 2 !

I know what it means.
hilasmos

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Sinners who are unforgiven have no propitiation. Are you a universalist?

Where do you find "forgiveness" in the Strong's definition?

Jesus Christ propitiated the Father when He paid for all the sins. He satisfied the justice of the Father by solving the sin debt of humanity.

And, no, I'm NOT a universalist.

 

[Hammster]

This is what I said and asked:
I said this:
He began His analogy with those who would steal, devour or deceive the sheep. Then He began His message about who He was going to die for.

Why anyone would think that Jesus was making a distinction between thieves, robbers, and wolves is really unusual. He clearly made the distinction between KIND of sheep.

#1 HIS sheep, who hear His voice (beleving Jews)
#2 OTHER sheep, who hear His voice (believing Gentiles)
#3 NOT of His sheep, who don't hear His voice (unbelievers)

You haven't refuted this.

The irrelevant points did no such thing. And there is that continual dodging of questions.

You offered to cite "many" passages about sheep that you think would support your view. So, it seems that you are.


His disciples surely understood that Jesus viewed humanity as "sheep without a shepherd".

And I'd really like an answer to what you think Jesus meant by that phrase.

Your view is that "all sheep" are His and He died ONLY for His sheep, so why would He reference sheep without a shepherd?

What did Jesus mean by the phrase "sheep without a shepherd"?

And your deflecting question is in error. I have given 2 passages where Jesus looked at the crowds and described them as "sheep without a shepherd".

Why would the disciples think Jesus would mean "God's people" when He described them as sheep without a shepherd?

How can "God's people" NOT have a shepherd?

Please respond to these questions. Or at least admit that you have no answer for them.

There's nothing about sheep without a shepherd in John 10. Trying to have this discussion with you when you just jump all around and show no consistency is proving to be quite daunting.

 

[Hammster]

Haven't you read either passage? That would be a good start. Don't take my word for anything, as you don't anyway.

So, read the passages, and that will answer your question.

Your questions are nothing more than an obvious dodge for answering my questions.

Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd. Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest." (Matthew 9:35-38 NASB)

There's the passage. How are you getting all of humanity from this? And, do you know the difference between a simile and a metaphor?

 

[sdowney717]

I know what it means.
hilasmos

1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation


Where do you find "forgiveness" in the Strong's definition?

Jesus Christ propitiated the Father when He paid for all the sins. He satisfied the justice of the Father by solving the sin debt of humanity.

And, no, I'm NOT a universalist.

The world experiences the wrath of God. Sins for them have no propitiation, no appeasement purchased for them by Christ because the world is not in Christ.
http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation

Propitiation
"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering. In relation to soteriology, propitiation means placating or satisfying the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice of Christ."
Charles C. Ryrie (1999-01-11). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Kindle Locations 5503-5504). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition.
"The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to them."^[1]^ Propitiation is that "by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners."^[2]^

The wrath of God remains upon unbelievers.

34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

So then there is no turning away of God's wrath abiding on the world of unbelievers.

It is a strange thing to claim God's wrath has been turned away by the propitiation of Christ for unbelievers.

 

[stan1953]

John 10.

John 10 says WHOEVER, not all. Please place your call again.

 

[Hammster]

John 10 says WHOEVER, not all. Please place your call again.

I have no problem with whoever. That doesn't change anything.

 

[stan1953]

Since when does it matter on a forum like this whether or not one is addressed to offer a response?

It's called context and of course it matters, especially when the response does not even address the issue.

Do I take him literally? Of course parables are not meant to be taken wooden literally, as though a person could be a person and literally a sheep at the same time. The symbolic language of a shepherd and sheep and goats is not literal in the strictest sense. Does that make the meaning any less clear? No, it shouldn't be that difficult, though acting on indwelling sin can and does (in one way or another) create a blinding effect on our perception and interpretation, even on Christians.

That's a fairly long NON answer.

What did the concept of adoption and grating mean to the Jews around Jesus' time?
What was Peter talking about when he said: "If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” (Acts 11:17) And WHY did he tell his audience?

Jews aren't adopted and Peter was talking about Gentiles so I have no idea what you are talking about. This is what happens when you interrupt a conversation.

Now for further context into what Christ said about "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" learn from this passage in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 21...
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;4 this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits."
Tell me sir, did Christ die for those fruit trees not producing fruit? Who is it that gives growth to a fruit tree to begin with? Can the tree water itself? Does it choose the ground where it is planted? Who is it that takes away?

Who Christ died for and who produces fruit are two different things.
Christ died for ALL, and in terms of the Jews, those who don't accept Him are broken off. Whether they are grafted back in is up to them. They can believe and accept Jesus and be grafted back in or they can refuse and be destroyed by fire, like ALL unbelievers.