TULIP - Calvinists only, please.

anthony55 · Jun 19, 2010

Salvation is obtained by means of faith.

Right, obtained experientially and consciously, but the person was saved in Gods estimation from eternity by His purpose.

And also Faith is obtained as well by regeneration 2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 pet 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten[regenerated] us again unto a lively hope [which is inseparable with Faith] by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

anthony55 · Jun 19, 2010

But, salvation doesn't happen for anyone until they believe on Christ.

Thats not True, for regeneration is a salvaic blessing in which, it happens to the elect soul before they believe in Christ.

light_eclipseca · Jun 20, 2010

I'm going to ask a mod to post this in SR. Sorry for any confusion the thread has caused.

It is, however, helping me in understanding how salvation is brought about. As I understand it, God brings about our regeneration and causes us to believe at the same time. As I understand it, logically regeneration comes first, then faith; in a temporal sense, however, I think they both occur at the same time.

It seems the general consensus so far is that one does not necessarily always believe in the Reformed position after they are regenerated, since misunderstanding occurs in our minds naturally due to the fall of mankind. They do, however, believe in a basic form of the gospel.

I guess another question remains in me, what does a regenerated person necessarily believe once they are given faith? What must they believe in order to be saved?

I have been a Christian for a while, and I've always thought that if a person believes:

1) They are a sinner (meaning they naturally want to sin by their nature and have transgressed against God's law).
2) They were doomed to spiritual and physical death.
3) There is no other way except that Christ by his coming as a human and remaining as God bore the penalty for our sin and died and rose again showing that he defeated death.

then they were a Christian.

Is this the case in your opinions? These questions seem so fundamental, and I feel so immature for even asking them, but I would like to understand this better because it seems like such a crucial point that I do not even know.

Thanks.

JustAsIam77 · Jun 20, 2010

light_eclipseca said:
I'm going to ask a mod to post this in SR. Sorry for any confusion the thread has caused.

It is, however, helping me in understanding how salvation is brought about. As I understand it, God brings about our regeneration and causes us to believe at the same time. As I understand it, logically regeneration comes first, then faith; in a temporal sense, however, I think they both occur at the same time.

It seems the general consensus so far is that one does not necessarily always believe in the Reformed position after they are regenerated, since misunderstanding occurs in our minds naturally due to the fall of mankind. They do, however, believe in a basic form of the gospel.

I guess another question remains in me, what does a regenerated person necessarily believe once they are given faith? What must they believe in order to be saved?

I have been a Christian for a while, and I've always thought that if a person believes:

1) They are a sinner (meaning they naturally want to sin by their nature and have transgressed against God's law).
2) They were doomed to spiritual and physical death.
3) There is no other way except that Christ by his coming as a human and remaining as God bore the penalty for our sin and died and rose again showing that he defeated death.

then they were a Christian.

Is this the case in your opinions? These questions seem so fundamental, and I feel so immature for even asking them, but I would like to understand this better because it seems like such a crucial point that I do not even know.

Thanks.

I believe your understanding to be correct. One must only believe Christ is their Saviour in order to be saved.

Now here we have a debate, some believe they are part and parcel to this process apart from the supernatural regeneration given by the Holy Ghost, decided by their own volition.

The Reformed believe acceptance of Christ as our Saviour is wholly by the act of God as fallen man is incapable of seeking Him of their own free will.

God bless

cygnusx1 · Jun 20, 2010

one need not know all the workings and science behind a Jumbo Jet in order to make a safe flight . On the other hand the designer of such a mode of transport MUST surely Know every aspect of his "creation " ...... One needs but simple faith in Christ to be saved , and God by design knows from eternity how He will save and WHO He will save , and it is clear the elect are saved by Him .

A New Dawn · Jun 20, 2010

Thread moved to the SR-R Ask A Calvinist forum per request of the OP.

heymikey80 · Jun 20, 2010

light_eclipseca said:
Basically, I let them know that I believed that understanding Calvinism is vital to understanding the gospel; where we disagreed was that he believed that one must adhere to the Calvinistic beliefs in order to be considered saved because it is the Gospel according to the Bible.

I disagreed with him because I believed that a person did not need to understand the gospel entirely in order to accept in on the faith that God gave him. Since our understanding is growing as God's grace allows it to, one may not know all of the details of the Gospel in order to be reconciled to God by His regeneration. He did bring up a good point, though, in that since the gospel is outlined in Calvinism, maybe it is necessary to understand the basics of Calvinism and reject the Arminian faith in order to be regenerated. He did say (and I think I agree) that God has decided to use the preaching of the gospel in order to regenerate people.

What do you think? Please offer me some help. My mother accepted that Calvinism was the Biblical teaching before she passed away a couple days ago, and so I know I will see her again no matter what the outcome or conclusion of this thread is; but it would be really nice to know, since my father does not accept this teaching as true, yet, and neither do a lot of my friends. Although I have had many discussions with him, and he seems to be coming around to our view of Scripture, I would either like to have some comfort that he is not in danger just because he holds to the Arminian position, or that he may in fact be in danger so that I will be more diligent in arguing with him.

Sorry if this question seems so childish. I did not grow up in a Reformed home, nor a Reformed church. I've only ever been around Arminians except in Bible College. So, I guess feel free to argue now...I do not want Arminians posting because Arminians will miss the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to argue about the question:

Assuming Calvinism's TULIP doctrines of grace are true, must one believe the points of Calvinism in order to be considered saved by grace?

Please take only the affirmative or the negative position. If you are unsure like me, go ahead and post what your thoughts are anyways.

So many issues feed into this one, that it's difficult to talk directly to the answer. In truth, God constantly strikes a true blow with a crooked stick. Mistakes abound in all theologies. It's the First Point of Calvinism: we are all wrong, some way, some how.

And yet it doesn't deter God from saving us.

There are likely some basic facts within the Gospel that we could derive due to the way the Gospel works, yes. But pointedly, they're secondary. When Jesus talks about the gospel, when the Apostles talk about the Gospel, there's one point: rely on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

I've switched out the term "believe" for a synonym for a reason. It's because we often miss that the term "believe" isn't used as a "belief that" Jesus is something, in most presentations of the Gospel. No, in fact it's used as a reliance in or a reliance upon Jesus as the risen Lord He is presented as, within the Gospel story. That's the kind of faith that saves.

To see this type of faith defined, you can review its meaning in Westminster:

SC 86. Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation, as he is offered to us in the gospel.

There are churches strongly on the right hand side of Calvinism who see the Five Points as critical to salvation. These positions make it out that Calvinism is embedded in the way the Gospel works. As far as I can tell they're not really the majority viewpoint within Calvinism. Calvin himself pointed out that many aspects of predestination and providence and ordination were not generally visible, even if they could be readily deduced from Scripture.

anthony55 · Jun 20, 2010

light:

It is, however, helping me in understanding how salvation is brought about. As I understand it, God brings about our regeneration and causes us to believe at the same time. As I understand it, logically regeneration comes first, then faith; in a temporal sense, however, I think they both occur at the same time.

I believe the bible points to regeneration occurring before believing, and it could be many days before believing.

In the parable of the different soils, the good soil is the regenerated heart Matt 13 :

but he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The word is not always preached to the regenerated heart on the same day regeneration occurs, but, it is prepared by regeneration so that when God does send the gospel message it will be received into a prepared heart.

Lydia in acts 16, no doubt was prepared by regeneration, for it reads that she worshipped God acts

ND a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

A spiritually dead person cannot worship God. Now I do not believe she just began worshiping God on the same day she heard Paul preach, but sometime before, however she was made ready to receive his words because God had opened her heart via regeneration, He had given her a spiritual capacity to receive spiritual Truth and understand it.

AMR · Jun 21, 2010

The Good News, on the surface, seems simple enough:

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Yet contained within these passages are the two most important questions of life: "Who is God?" and "Who is Jesus Christ?"

A person may profess belief yet their belief is in an intellectual idol of their own making for these two vital questions. They go off worshiping them at their own temporal and even perhaps eternal peril.

AMR

anthony55 · Jun 21, 2010

Rom 3:

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The scripture teaches that all men [ jew and gentile] are inwardly corrupt by nature, and guilty [ of this corruption ] before God, all men are totally depraved before God.

In culminating the the summary universality of corruption in rom 3: 9-19, Paul states that the entire world of men stands guilty of corruption before God, from the religious jew to the pagan gentiles.

It should be made clear however that no matter how depraved and guilty the elect of God are by nature, whether jew or gentile, they from a Judicial Legal standpoint God ward are not guilty, never condemned by the Law of God.

For the legal condemnation and guilt they [ the elect] deserve for their depravity in common with all mankind, has been imputed to Christ, and not imputed unto them.

The Lord Jesus Christ became legally guilty and condemned [ by imputation] for their sins, their depravity. The elect of God by nature are children of wrath [ depraved] even as others, but they are preserved through their depravity, to be quickened, that is made alive, because they were of the election of grace, and the guilt of their depravity [ all those horrible items outlined in rom 3:10-18] has been borne by Christ, and they have been set free from the law of sin and death.

So guilt in rom 3 19 as it pertains to the elect, is depravity guilt, of which sooner or later they will be convicted of [ Jn 16:8] and it is not legal condemnation guilt which Christ received for them and on their behalf.

light_eclipseca · Jun 21, 2010

anthony55 said:
Rom 3:

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The scripture teaches that all men [ jew and gentile] are inwardly corrupt by nature, and guilty [ of this corruption ] before God, all men are totally depraved before God.

In culminating the the summary universality of corruption in rom 3: 9-19, Paul states that the entire world of men stands guilty of corruption before God, from the religious jew to the pagan gentiles.

It should be made clear however that no matter how depraved and guilty the elect of God are by nature, whether jew or gentile, they from a Judicial Legal standpoint God ward are not guilty, never condemned by the Law of God.

For the legal condemnation and guilt they [ the elect] deserve for their depravity in common with all mankind, has been imputed to Christ, and not imputed unto them.

The Lord Jesus Christ became legally guilty and condemned [ by imputation] for their sins, their depravity. The elect of God by nature are children of wrath [ depraved] even as others, but they are preserved through their depravity, to be quickened, that is made alive, because they were of the election of grace, and the guilt of their depravity [ all those horrible items outlined in rom 3:10-18] has been borne by Christ, and they have been set free from the law of sin and death.

So guilt in rom 3 19 as it pertains to the elect, is depravity guilt, of which sooner or later they will be convicted of [ Jn 16:8] and it is not legal condemnation guilt which Christ received for them and on their behalf.

Anthony I never thought of it that way before. That was very interesting that you say that the elect have always had their sin imputed to Christ as he bore the sin of all of us the one time.

But I think that your answers are actually making me feel much better concerning salvation and it not being about belief in Calvinism as a system of theology, but rather belief/trust in what Christ has done for us already.

It makes sense. Sometimes you just have to be reminded of the simple verses you learned earlier like "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Verses like this make me feel better about my father's salvation. Even though he is coming around to our view of what the Scripture teaches about God; it's nice to not be afraid about it and to just trust that the Lord is in control of that whether my dad believes that or not.

Thank you all. It may not have seemed like it, but I really felt worried for a few days about this. I think it may have been the shock of my mom passing that really made me think about this in a little more in depth, and begin to feel a little desperate for an answer. Love you guys, and thank you.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 11, 2010

I have always had Puritan theology as my foundation, because the way the Puritan divines set out the Gospel is so clear and faith building. I see this period as the golden years of Bible teaching. I have considered myself Calvinist, and got into strife with others in my church, because a lot of Pentecostals are Arminian in their view. However, just recently I decided to give myself a study course in what Calvin actually wrote, so I got hold of a whole lot of Calvin's commentaries (Acts, 1Corinthians, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Minor Prophets, etc.). What a blessing! The Holy Spirit has been speaking to me out of every page. I think that a lot of the opposition to Calvinism from some quarters is based on a lack of knowledge of what Calvin actually taught. I would have John Calvin as my pastor anytime! Well, in effect, he is, because I am getting encouragement and inspiration from him every day I read his books.

AndOne · Aug 11, 2010

Oscarr said:
I have always had Puritan theology as my foundation, because the way the Puritan divines set out the Gospel is so clear and faith building. I see this period as the golden years of Bible teaching. I have considered myself Calvinist, and got into strife with others in my church, because a lot of Pentecostals are Arminian in their view. However, just recently I decided to give myself a study course in what Calvin actually wrote, so I got hold of a whole lot of Calvin's commentaries (Acts, 1Corinthians, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Minor Prophets, etc.). What a blessing! The Holy Spirit has been speaking to me out of every page. I think that a lot of the opposition to Calvinism from some quarters is based on a lack of knowledge of what Calvin actually taught. I would have John Calvin as my pastor anytime! Well, in effect, he is, because I am getting encouragement and inspiration from him every day I read his books.

Check out Soveriegn Grace Ministries some time - they are reformed and Charismatic. I've never seen a church employ the gifts according to 1 Corninthians the way these guys do. I wish I lived near one so that I could I go regularly. Some pastors associated with them are C. J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris.

Think you catch heat from pentacostal churches for being Calvinist? - you should see some Calvinist churches respond to those of us who claim to be Calvinist and Charismatic at the same time!

nobdysfool · Aug 11, 2010

Behe's Boy said:
Check out Soveriegn Grace Ministries some time - they are reformed and Charismatic. I've never seen a church employ the gifts according to 1 Corninthians the way these guys do. I wish I lived near one so that I could I go regularly. Some pastors associated with them are C. J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris.

Think you catch heat from pentacostal churches for being Calvinist? - you should see some Calvinist churches respond to those of us who claim to be Calvinist and Charismatic at the same time!

You said a mouthful! Some get downright nasty!

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 12, 2010

Behe's Boy said:
Check out Soveriegn Grace Ministries some time - they are reformed and Charismatic. I've never seen a church employ the gifts according to 1 Corninthians the way these guys do. I wish I lived near one so that I could I go regularly. Some pastors associated with them are C. J. Mahaney and Joshua Harris.

Think you catch heat from pentacostal churches for being Calvinist? - you should see some Calvinist churches respond to those of us who claim to be Calvinist and Charismatic at the same time!

I got hold of John Calvin's commentary on 1 Corinthians, and read with interest what he said about 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. He supports the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit, and does not say that miracles and healing passed away. I like his descriptions of prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom. He says that the gift of miracles is specifically aimed at Satan and his works. He says that the gifts of healing is self explanatory. He is spot on about the gift of faith. He says that the miracles support the ministry of the Holy Spirit and shows those who would attack the church that God is a God of power. He says in his commentary on Acts that it is the miracle working power of God that restrains evil people from destroying the Christian church. He says that this is how the emerging Christian church survived in Israel when the Jews were hell bent on trying to destroy it. The miracles made them afraid to touch the church with the intensity that they wanted to.

But Calvin was a man of his times, and although his description of tongues is very interesting, and reflects what happened on the Day of Pentecost, he tends to fudge the clear words of Paul's desciption of tongues. This shows me that the revelation of how the Spirit works was not complete in his time.

So, as a Charismatic oriented Calvinist, nothing that Calvin taught in 1 Corinthians upset my faith and resolve about the gifts of the Spirit at all.

Richard Sibbes, another really powerful Puritan divine says that Christianity that does not stir the devil up and brings persecution to believers is barren and powerless. But Christian faith that is real and of the Holy Spirit will upset the devil and cause him to try and neutralise it. So, rejoice in your afflictions and fiery trials, because it shows that your faith is real and powerful.

mlqurgw · Aug 17, 2010

Must a person understand TULIP to be saved? No they don't. Is an Arminain saved? No they aren't. Why aren't they? Because they believe in a false god and another gospel. Calvinism is not salvation Christ is. But the christ that is preached by the Arminian is not the Christ of the Bible. The god of Aminianism is not the God of the Bible. One need not understand election and oredestination to be saved but they must know God in Christ and themselves as sinners. When God reveals Himself to the elect sinner He reveals Himself as He is not as the religious world thinks He is. When He reveals Himself as He is knowledge of self as the sinner always follows. Knowing that you sin is not the same as knowing you are sin. Paul didn't preach just that Christ died for our sins. He preached the Gospel of how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. And was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. 1Cor. 15:1-4

A person can be a Calvinist and be as dead as any Arminian. The Lord Jesus plainly defined what salvation is, eternal life, in John 17:3. It isn't knowing a god or a christ but knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. All believers may not understand the theology of TULIP but they all know the voice of the Son of God and when they hear it they follow Him. Christ doesn't leave His sheep in false religion. He calls them out and puts them in the sheepfold.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 18, 2010

mlqurgw said:
Must a person understand TULIP to be saved? No they don't. Is an Arminain saved? No they aren't. Why aren't they? Because they believe in a false god and another gospel. Calvinism is not salvation Christ is. But the christ that is preached by the Arminian is not the Christ of the Bible. The god of Aminianism is not the God of the Bible. One need not understand election and oredestination to be saved but they must know God in Christ and themselves as sinners. When God reveals Himself to the elect sinner He reveals Himself as He is not as the religious world thinks He is. When He reveals Himself as He is knowledge of self as the sinner always follows. Knowing that you sin is not the same as knowing you are sin. Paul didn't preach just that Christ died for our sins. He preached the Gospel of how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. And was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. 1Cor. 15:1-4

The Scriptural criteria for salvation, according to Peter, when the people in the crowd on the Day of Pentecost were cut to the heart and cried out, "What shall we do to be saved?" Peter said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised." So, Peter's criteria on the day was for them to approach Christ in faith and make a public declaration of their faith by being baptised. At that time, there was no teaching about the finer points of how the Holy Spirit works in sinners to bring them to Christ. All these people knew was that the Gospel was true and they felt the need to be saved. 3000 of them followed Peter's instruction and we saved.

In another place it says that if we believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, we will be saved.

I am very reluctant to make the same judgement of Arminians that has been quoted. This is because the invitation to come to Christ is extended to all, and it really does appear that people have a choice to make. So "coming to Christ and embracing Him" and "accepting Jesus as Saviour" may be one and the same in actual practice. But really, that is the starting point. It is how a person goes on for Christ is the important issue.

I haven't taken the time to read what Arminius taught concerning free choice. I know that some have accused him of the being "Semi Pelegan". The heresy of Peleganism involves teaching that a person can get right with God completely by his own efforts. The orthodox view is that the Holy Spirit is the initiator.

But however a person enters the Christian faith. If that person gets filled with the Holy Spirit and has absolute faith in the resurrection and lives for Jesus as Lord, then who can criticise him?

Actually, God looks on the heart of a person and basis His judgement on what He sees there. I think that we will get some pleasant and nasty surprises about who we discover will be in heaven with us when we get there.

mlqurgw · Aug 18, 2010

Oscarr said:
The Scriptural criteria for salvation, according to Peter, when the people in the crowd on the Day of Pentecost were cut to the heart and cried out, "What shall we do to be saved?" Peter said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptised." So, Peter's criteria on the day was for them to approach Christ in faith and make a public declaration of their faith by being baptised. At that time, there was no teaching about the finer points of how the Holy Spirit works in sinners to bring them to Christ. All these people knew was that the Gospel was true and they felt the need to be saved. 3000 of them followed Peter's instruction and we saved.

In John 17:3 the Lord Jeus tells us what is the criteria for salvation. It is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Paul also tells us in Rom. 10 that they cannot believe in someone of whom they have never heard and that they hear by a preacher. The preacher's job is to tell folks about Christ. It involves much more than just telling folks that He died. It involves telling folks why He died and what happened when He died and who He died for. It involves telling folks why His death does what it does. The writer to the Hebrews tells us that faith is coming to God believing He is God, not some mamby pampy want to be god, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. God clearly declares in the whole of Scriptures His nature and attributes as God. That is what it means to call on His name in Rom. 10:13. It isn't saying Jesus but to call on Him in all His glorious character. His name denotes who He is.

In another place it says that if we believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, we will be saved.

Rom. 10:9 doesn't stand alone as a salvation verse. How can one confess that Jesus is Lord unless He is revealed as Lord by the Spirit throught the preaching of the Gospel? That is the point of the passage in Rom. 10.

I am very reluctant to make the same judgement of Arminians that has been quoted.

I understand. I don't make it lightly. I do so because I am convinced by the Scriptures that it is so. Their problem isn't that they don't have right doctrine their problem is that they don't have the right God.

This is because the invitation to come to Christ is extended to all, and it really does appear that people have a choice to make. So "coming to Christ and embracing Him" and "accepting Jesus as Saviour" may be one and the same in actual practice.

We do call on all to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to the salvation of their souls and rightly do so. We are not only commanded to do it but if we love them we will desire with all our hearts that they should know Christ. The fact that it appears that folks have a choice to make is important. That word appears is key to understanding the doctrine though. In reality God doesn't give men a choice. His terms of peace with the sinner is surrender or die.

But really, that is the starting point. It is how a person goes on for Christ is the important issue.

A person goes on for Christ just exactly as he received Him. Col. 2:6 He received Him by faith and he walks by faith.

I haven't taken the time to read what Arminius taught concerning free choice. I know that some have accused him of the being "Semi Pelegan". The heresy of Peleganism involves teaching that a person can get right with God completely by his own efforts. The orthodox view is that the Holy Spirit is the initiator.

I have read Arminius and his views weren't too far off actually. It was his followers who turned his teachings into heresy. The orthodox view is not necessarily the full truth though. The Spirit isn't just the initiator but the completer of faith in every believer.

But however a person enters the Christian faith. If that person gets filled with the Holy Spirit and has absolute faith in the resurrection and lives for Jesus as Lord, then who can criticise him?

The turning point is how a person enters the christian faith. If he enters trusting a false god then he has climbed up some other way. John 10:1

Actually, God looks on the heart of a person and basis His judgement on what He sees there. I think that we will get some pleasant and nasty surprises about who we discover will be in heaven with us when we get there.

I recognize that some who I might think should be there will not be and some I think wouldn't will be. I am not passing judgement on anyone's soul. I am speaking the truth of God as He has revealed it by the Scriptures and leave it up to Him to make it reach the heart of chosen sinners. But I will never trifle with the souls of men by telling them that they can be saved believing in a false god.

Shulamite · Aug 20, 2010

Behe's Boy said:
No - an understanding of Calvinism is not necessary to be saved. Any Calvinist who would tell you such thing really doesn't understand Calvinism....

theseed · Jan 10, 2011

Since it's entirely God's grace that saves us, I suppose it's possible to be saved and not understand any of the gospel--intellectually speaking. I believe children who die in childhood are always saved

TULIP - Calvinists only, please.

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