Trying to understand how "God is Sovereign" is an argument in itself

[Dave L]

I am not going to watch the video clip. It looks to be another signature Calvanist hit job like "American Gospel" and the "Strange Fire" conference.

Mark 16:14: Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Where are all the healing miracles when needed most?

 

[John Mullally]

Miracles are as the Spirit wills.

Healing is part of the atonement on the cross:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

If I had a terminal disease, I would get the book "Christ the Healer" by F. F. Bosworth which was written nearly 100 years ago.

 

[Dave L]

Miracles are as the Spirit wills.

Healing is part of the atonement on the cross:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

If I had a terminal disease, I would get the book "Christ the Healer" by F. F. Bosworth which was written nearly 100 years ago.

If true, why don't we see miracles today?

 

[John Mullally]

I have studied the argument that has been made that the "Gifts of the Spirit" have passed away. My understanding is that it comes down to 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 and the take that the perfect has come - being that the full canon of scripture has been compiled. I remember hearing that you should never build a doctrine on a speculative interpretation of one passage of scripture or based upon your personal observations.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I personally have not spent any time in checking up on documented miracles.

Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?

 

[John Mullally]

So the practical application of "Calvanist Election" is that the faith of Christ's elect has a practical outworking in our daily lives. In Paul's case (1 Corinithians 9:27) that outworking involved continuously bringing his body into subjection lest he should become part of the non-elect.

And your moniker "...in perils among false bretheren..." really says it all.

Phil 2:13 can apply to you without understanding Calvanist Election. You could, for example, not accept Calvanist Election because you believe that the "foreknew" in Romans 8:28 has to do with God knowing who in the future would believe in His Son (and thus qualify for salvation per Mark 16:16) and because you believe that "Faith" is not a "Work" per Romans 4:1-5. So I am still waiting for a practical application on the doctrine of "Calvanist Election".

 

[JM]

I am not going to watch the video clip. It looks to be another signature Calvanist hit job like "American Gospel" and the "Strange Fire" conference.

Mark 16:14: Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Invincible and willing to remain ignorant by denying the opportunity to learn.

10-4, over and out.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I see the "God is Sovereign" as a fill in when scriptural or logical argument cannot be made.

The "God is Sovereign" argument seems to me to be that you cannot stand on various scriptural promises because you are viewed as putting God in a box out of selfish motives and God is Sovereign.

On one hand, God limits his own options (Sovereignty?) by His Word and His personal directives to each of us. On the other hand, the only way we know God's will is through His Word and His directives.

Frequently when God directs men to do something, it does not get done. For example, Jesus taught us to pray that "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". Under "God is Sovereign" it would be done - because it is God's will - Jesus would not command us to pray for something that was not His will.

Honestly? Calvinists just add God's sovreignty into everything because God is soveriegn.

Tell me, is your sanctification complete? Or do you still struggle a lot with your sins?

God's completely sovreign and God could sanctify you with one word. With one word all of this pain,suffering,poverty ...etc would be over. God is powerful enough to do it. Or to do anything that would catch his tiniest whim.

However just because all of this doesn't happen doesnt mean that God isn't sovereign over all. These things are just not in God's will right now in this current second of time.

Using Jesus's sermon on the mount is kind of a weak argument. In the sermon on the mount God was teaching sections on how to pray it wasn't one strict prayer. I'll break it down with what Christ was teaching

Our Father who art in Heaven - always start your prayers addressing God as Father

Hallowed be your name - Acknowledge that your Lord God is Holy,Perfect, who is wise and just. Look at how perfectly the angels sing to their ruler and King to get an idea.

Your kingdom come your will be done. - Pray about the upcoming kingdom and for God's will to be done not yours.

on earth as it is in heaven. - easy needs no explanation.

Give us this day our daily bread - repeat of last. As we're working for God God gives us places and people to work with.

Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors - ask Gid to forgive us.

And lead us not into temptation - plead with God to help you with the many temptations you have.
But deliver us from the evil one - self explanatory.
For thine is your honor,glory,and power forever and ever amen - again see how angels sing for reference.

At least 3 times Jesus said to acknowledge God's sovreignty in your prayers.

While not every christian doesn't pray this way right now at this second of their life doesnt mean as they're drawing closer to their final sanctification that they won't. There are sins i commit today that i didnt 6 months ago and there are sins I committed my whole life thwt I NEVER partake again.

Should Christians pray in the lines that Jess taught us to. Yes. But every Christian grows at completely different rates. Just because they don't lray that way today doesnt mean they won't in 10 years. And when they do start to pray that way it only PROVES God's sovreignty and plan.

 

[John Mullally]

Saying God is Sovereign is saying that He has no bounds - which is true. But after He has given His Word, His Son, and the Holy Spirit we should know something about Him. To throw a curt "God is Sovereign" comes off as saying you know nothing. Although not as rude, it is kind of like using character assassination to argue a point.

Why not be specific? If you think an argument is not scriptural, presumptuous, puts God in a Box, or misrepresents Him, say that and back it up with an explanation.

 

[Cormack]

Calvinists don’t know what the words sovereign or sovereignty mean, after redefining the word out of its original meaning to now mean determinism, they then insert that misuse of the word into contentious conversations.

It’s a form of question begging, a misuse of terms and a thorough misunderstanding of the historic use of the word sovereign.

Sovereign (historic meaning) = King, ruler, monarch, Lord.

The word sovereign connotes that God rules, not how he rules. The preface to the King James Bible refers to the king as “the dread sovereign.” They knew the real meaning of the word sovereign.

Sovereign (Calvinist misuse of the word) = in control, controlling, determinism.

Calvinists don’t know the historic use of the word and much prefer to remain in a hive mind of misused terms.

There’s not much more to it and anyone who wants to go beyond their group think, social conditioning, brain melter tactics will end up dismissing their view altogether.

 

[Cormack]

So to the question “how is Gods sovereignty an argument in itself?” The answer is because it’s used by Calvinists as a type of question begging.

The debate is often about things like whether or not God has preordained mans sin, the original fall from grace and who goes to hell.

Those are debate topics, but constantly fooling people into accepting their misuse a word like sovereignty ends the conversation before it’s begun.

The Calvinist will say “Well, since we know God is sovereign, there’s no doubt that the fall from grace was by his power. Right, don’t you believe he’s sovereign?”

It’s simply begging the question by a misuse of the word sovereign, the second posters don’t call them out on their misuse of the word, the Calvinists have generated enough confusion to go around saying they won the debate or that you agree with them.

Calvinism thrives on confusion.