Trying to understand ELCA and LCMS...

[jinc1019]

I am well aware that the ELCA and the LCMS are very different when it comes to homosexuality, female ordination, etc. I also know that the ELCA and LCMS have different approaches to interpreting the Bible and the authority of the Book of Concord.

However, when you go on the ELCA website and go to the "Teachings" section, all of their positions seem very reasonable. They say they hold the Bible as inspired, that the Lutheran confessions are essential learning tools, etc. I also saw a Pew Research poll of LCMS and ELCA members that showed that the actual laity is very similar on most issues, including abortion and gay marriage.

So my question is...are all the "horror" stories about the ELCA overblown? I have heard so many orthodox Christians talk about how far gone they are...how many of their pastors are way outside traditional Christianity etc.

Is the ELCA a "liberal" denomination or a moderate one? Obviously they are not strictly confessional, but it does appear as though the picture is more complicated than the one that has painted for me previously. I would love to hear from both confessional and ELCA members on this. I am really just trying to learn more about the state of the ELCA-the real one. Thanks for your time in advance.

Justin

P.S. Please try to keep things civil and on topic!

 

[Tangible]

An ELCA congregation in good standing: herchurch

 

[jinc1019]

An ELCA congregation in good standing: herchurch

Fair enough. lol.

 

[jinc1019]

An ELCA congregation in good standing: herchurch

I will say though...While it is obvious that there are at least some who take these radical positions, is it pervasive or is it relegated to just small minority of groups?

 

[Tangible]

It is seen (apparently) as part of a spectrum of valid expressions of Lutheranism and Christianity, with herchurch on the left and conservative Midwestern congregations to the right.

In reality, anything goes, with the ELCA in full and even pulpit fellowship with obviously non-Lutheran bodies such as the UMC, UCC, TEC, PCUSA, etc. In effect they are saying that there is no substantial difference in what all these bodies believe, teach and confess.

 

[Arcangl86]

It is seen (apparently) as part of a spectrum of valid expressions of Lutheranism and Christianity, with herchurch on the left and conservative Midwestern congregations to the right.

In reality, anything goes, with the ELCA in full and even pulpit fellowship with obviously non-Lutheran bodies such as the UMC, UCC, TEC, PCUSA, etc. In effect they are saying that there is no substantial difference in what all these bodies believe, teach and confess.

Or maybe it is saying that the essentials are still the same, and everything else doesn't matter. The confessions have a very broad definition of what makes up the Church.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Or maybe it is saying that the essentials are still the same, and everything else doesn't matter. The confessions have a very broad definition of what makes up the Church.

These churches do not hold to Real Presence. Why would you EVER want to claim unity with a church that doesn't? The "essentials" are NOT the same.

 

[jinc1019]

Or maybe it is saying that the essentials are still the same, and everything else doesn't matter. The confessions have a very broad definition of what makes up the Church.

While I think you can argue that it's unwise to hold this position, I do agree that this appears to be what the ELCA is all about. I don't think they are saying that they are the same and the differences don't matter...they seem to be saying that they don't matter enough to share communion, etc.

 

[jinc1019]

Or maybe it is saying that the essentials are still the same, and everything else doesn't matter. The confessions have a very broad definition of what makes up the Church.

While I think you can argue that it's unwise to hold this position, I do agree that this appears to be what the ELCA is all about. I don't think they are saying that they are the same and the differences don't matter...they seem to be saying that they don't matter enough to share communion, etc.

 

[jinc1019]

These churches do not hold to Real Presence. Why would you EVER want to claim unity with a church that doesn't? The "essentials" are NOT the same.

Are you sure about this? The ELCA website doesn't seem to indicate that. They say they hold to the Lutheran confessions... At least to some extent.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Are you sure about this? The ELCA website doesn't seem to indicate that. They say they hold to the Lutheran confessions... At least to some extent.

I was speaking more in reference to the other churches, actually, since yes the ELCA technically says it believes in Real Presence. However, most ELCA churches I know of also have an open communion railing, so again, another reason to not be in fellowship/unity with them.

 

[jinc1019]

I was speaking more in reference to the other churches, actually, since yes the ELCA technically says it believes in Real Presence. However, most ELCA churches I know of also have an open communion railing, so again, another reason to not be in fellowship/unity with them.

So you're saying the real presence teaching varies? I am new to Lutheranism and would like to join either the ELCA or the LCMS.... The real presence would be a deal breaker though.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So you're saying the real presence teaching varies? I am new to Lutheranism and would like to join either the ELCA or the LCMS.... The real presence would be a deal breaker though.

I believe you will find more LCMS churches teaching Real Presence than ELCA churches.

 

[jinc1019]

I believe you will find more LCMS churches teaching Real Presence than ELCA churches.

Oh I don't have any doubts about that!

 

[filosofer]

I believe you will find more LCMS churches teaching Real Presence than ELCA churches.

Just to clarify, the issue isn’t “real presence of Christ in the Sacrament” — most protestant churches accept that. Hence, the bread and wine are only symbols of something else, but the body and blood of Christ are not present.

But Lutherans believe in the “real presence of Christ‘s body and blood in the Sacrament.”

That is why ELCA uses the term “real presence,” so they can appear to agree with UMC, ECUSA, RCA, PCUSA, UCC; but LCMS, WELS, ELS, and TAALC use “real presence of Christ’s body and blood.”

 

[jinc1019]

Just to clarify, the issue isn’t “real presence of Christ in the Sacrament” — most protestant churches accept that. Hence, the bread and wine are only symbols of something else, but the body and blood of Christ are not present.

But Lutherans believe in the “real presence of Christ‘s body and blood in the Sacrament.”

That is why ELCA uses the term “real presence,” so they can appear to agree with UMC, ECUSA, RCA, PCUSA, UCC; but LCMS, WELS, ELS, and TAALC use “real presence of Christ’s body and blood.”

I am not sure what you are trying to say here in the first two paragraphs. Are you saying that some in the ELCA hold to a reformed view of the real presence while others hold to a more confessional (Lutheran) position? I think something has been lost in translation.

 

[Arcangl86]

I was speaking more in reference to the other churches, actually, since yes the ELCA technically says it believes in Real Presence. However, most ELCA churches I know of also have an open communion railing, so again, another reason to not be in fellowship/unity with them.

Out of curiosity, why?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Out of curiosity, why?

Why not be in fellowship with them?

Because they don't believe the same things we do.

 

[Arcangl86]

Why not be in fellowship with them?

Because they don't believe the same things we do.

I was referring more to the fact that the ELCA practices open communion. Why is that bad?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I was referring more to the fact that the ELCA practices open communion. Why is that bad?

The bible tells us that taking communion without fully understanding it means we do it to our detriment.

Having an open rail means there's no discernment of who's coming to the table.

If someone comes to the table believing communion to be simply symbolic, they are taking communion to their detriment. This is serious business, according to the bible. 1 Corinthians 11 speaks quite a bit on it.

In our church, we have close communion, meaning you need to be a member of the WELS, ELS or a church body in fellowship with our synod in order to take communion. This is because the churches we are in fellowship with all believe in Real Presence and have close communion.