trying to separate my soul from my body...

[Catherineanne]

I will explain; so I have read extensively about Out of Body Experiences, also called "astral projection" or "spirit walking". Its pretty much going into a state where you can separate your physical body form your soul.

what do you think? do think this is some sort of evil? i think its cool, but i dont know what people think of it.

No, this is not evil. It is called dissociation, and it is a very common thing to do, if you happen to know how. Dissociation is a psychological defence, adopted by children because they do not have access to adult coping mechanisms. If you didn't learn how to do this as a child, chances are you will not learn it later.

If you research under 'dissociation' you will find out more.

 

[Catherineanne]

its not good
i have had a brush with it when a child and continued to have problems for many years related to this until God intervened and freed me from some things. it's not good
i would pray to God if you are a Christian and ask for forgiveness for doing it and/or seeking it and for even looking into this practice when it is not of God and repent from it.

Nobody has to repent of dissociation. It is a psychological defence, usually adopted by a child in response to a trauma in his or her life.

It is most certainly not a sin, and most certainly not evil. It is a normal reaction to trauma, used by children to help them to cope with what is otherwise beyond their ability to manage.

 

[Catherineanne]

The only people I've met who were truly adept at these things turned out either to be 1) possessed 2) eventually got into the occult 3) repented (after realizing the danger) I fall into category 3.

All that this proves is that you really don't understand what you are talking about in any way.

Dissociation, and the ability to enter a dissociative state, either involuntarily (usual) or voluntarily (unusual) is not evidence of possession, or of being involved in the occult, nor does it need to be repented.

Dissociation is a symptom, generally pointing to a person who has either been abused as a child, or who has lived through a significant life trauma. It has nothing whatever to do with the occult.

 

[Nobody1]

No, this is not evil. It is called dissociation, and it is a very common thing to do, if you happen to know how. Dissociation is a psychological defence, adopted by children because they do not have access to adult coping mechanisms. If you didn't learn how to do this as a child, chances are you will not learn it later.

If you research under 'dissociation' you will find out more.

This disassociation you speak of happens involuntarily. He is talking about doing it voluntarily.

And that does not make disassociation a positive or good thing to get people out of even if it is voluntary. Would you rather catatonics - to use an extreme example - stay in their state, or get out of it.

I do not know about you, but I would rather see people live life to its' fullest and be happy.

Definitely, the world says, "Such things are impossible".

But, Jesus clearly said, "Nothing is impossible for God".

And why would anything be impossible for God? It is just that people talk about Him being omnipotent and omnipresent, but they clearly show by their words and deeds they do not really believe this: hence, they show their own lack of knowledge of God in their unbelief.

And we know all unbelief is sin.

 

[Catherineanne]

This disassociation you speak of happens involuntarily. He is talking about doing it voluntarily.

Dissociation is not always involuntary. It is a psychological defence mechanism, and sometimes it is entered into by volition.

Nobody will be able to enter such a state unless they learned to do it as a child, and as a result of trauma. Those who are able to do it, therefore, are not to be condemned as evil, but understood as damaged or injured.

Would you rather catatonics - to use an extreme example - stay in their state, or get out of it.

Catatonia is a different condition.

Here is a comparison for you; a man has a broken leg and has that leg in plaster. Would you rather he stay in that state or get out of it? The answer, of course, is that it is better for most of us to be without a plaster on our leg, but for that person, for a certain time, it is better for him to remain in plaster. And the reason for this is that the plaster provides protection to the bones of the leg, to enable them to heal.

Similarly, dissociation provides protection to the psyche, and enables it to heal. Once a sufficient level of healing is reached, the dissociation will fade away. This is a natural process, and is not to be condemned by those who do not understand it. Just as we allow the leg to heal in its own time, unless we are qualified in psychology, we ought to allow the mind to heal in its own time as well.

 

[Nobody1]

Dissociation is not always involuntary. It is a psychological defence mechanism, and sometimes it is entered into by volition.

Nobody will be able to enter such a state unless they learned to do it as a child, and as a result of trauma. Those who are able to do it, therefore, are not to be condemned as evil, but understood as damaged or injured.



Catatonia is a different condition.

Here is a comparison for you; a man has a broken leg and has that leg in plaster. Would you rather he stay in that state or get out of it? The answer, of course, is that it is better for most of us to be without a plaster on our leg, but for that person, for a certain time, it is better for him to remain in plaster. And the reason for this is that the plaster provides protection to the bones of the leg, to enable them to heal.

Similarly, dissociation provides protection to the psyche, and enables it to heal. Once a sufficient level of healing is reached, the dissociation will fade away. This is a natural process, and is not to be condemned by those who do not understand it. Just as we allow the leg to heal in its own time, unless we are qualified in psychology, we ought to allow the mind to heal in its own time as well.

I don't disagree, except I do believe catatonic schizophrenia - and many other forms of mental illness - are exactly this sort of thing.

However, that is semantics.

I would also disagree this has to be learned as a child. People will do whatever they can to cope with a horrible situation. In fact, the very form of "disassociation" is extremely wide. By my book anyway.

For instance, people disassociate themselves from their past sins, pushing them aside and forgetting them. They disassociate themselves from friends who caused ill in their lives. They disassociate from old habits. They disassociate people they have to kill in combat in order to feel less like they are killing people like themselves and more like they are killing just "things". They disassociate from family members or friends in a wide variety of ways. If they are victims of some horrible trauma, they can disassociate from that in a wide variety of ways -- even if it was not as they were children. (Though, yes, this is going to be more common with - say - sexually abused children and so forth because, as you say, the coping mechanisms are not there yet.)

But the coping mechanisms are not there for everyone in every situation.

However, by my book all of this is an absurdity. I view the miracles Jesus did as possible for anyone, if they have the faith to do so. But, the weeds of this world cast out by the devil and his angels - anyone who does not know God in their heart - have gone out: proclaiming the utter certainty of the impossibility of cure through faith.

And that, I see as sad, because I see among my own friends grim pronouncements made for them for serious health and mental problems: and they all turn up wrong.

In fact, it is far worse today then it was back in 30-33 AD. There is so much "proof" of the certainty of doom... but it is all lies from the world.

Why did Jesus cry over Lazarus? Because the people were like little children not understanding the power of God who created them and orders their lives.

But that is all another matter: truth is that all such sorrows and horrors are forgotten in the Spirit of Jesus Christ. All of them. Then one knows the everlasting peace and joy in their hearts of God and those old horrors vanish.

There is therefore no reason to disassociate... not by astral travel, not by drunkenness, not by LSD, not by trance, not by travel, not by wealth, not by anything which promises a better life: because the better life - the only life - is in Jesus Christ.

Why is that itself so hard to believe? Again because of all of the lies in the world and all of the liars.

But above all, because people are scared of giving up everything, "everything", their own selves... to be One in Jesus.

But, when they do, they discover they have given up only the bad things, for Jesus told the truth: He is the Life.

PostScript:

I did not condemn the man, btw, I do not condemn people.

I do urge people not to think escape is "out there" or "up there" or "down there".

I can tell them and do tell them when they are on the wrong path. I have that responsibility to do so.

Now, if you do not belief the part about healing, okay, but if you do not believe the last part of what I was saying -- I would like to know why.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't disagree, except I do believe catatonic schizophrenia - and many other forms of mental illness - are exactly this sort of thing.

You may be right; I don't know enough about them to say one way or the other.

I would also disagree this has to be learned as a child. People will do whatever they can to cope with a horrible situation. In fact, the very form of "disassociation" is extremely wide. By my book anyway.

It is not I who say that, but psychologists. Adults use different coping mechanisms, unless they learned dissociation as a child.

For instance, people disassociate themselves from their past sins, pushing them aside and forgetting them. They disassociate themselves from friends who caused ill in their lives. They disassociate from old habits. They disassociate people they have to kill in combat in order to feel less like they are killing people like themselves and more like they are killing just "things". They disassociate from family members or friends in a wide variety of ways. If they are victims of some horrible trauma, they can disassociate from that in a wide variety of ways -- even if it was not as they were children. (Though, yes, this is going to be more common with - say - sexually abused children and so forth because, as you say, the coping mechanisms are not there yet.)

I understand what you are saying now. I think all of these are real, but the more appropriate term for them would be 'denial.' And of course anyone and everyone engages in that from time to time. It is another coping mechanism, but can sometimes be spiritually harmful, certainly.

I view the miracles Jesus did as possible for anyone, if they have the faith to do so.

Fair enough. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want.

Now, if you do not belief the part about healing, okay, but if you do not believe the last part of what I was saying -- I would like to know why.

That unbelief is always a sin? No, I don't believe that. Unbelief is a stage in our journey of faith, and is not under judgement. It is part of being human. Remember the words, "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief." Is this not a prayer that each one of us could say, every day? I see no sin in such a prayer.

 

[Nobody1]

You may be right; I don't know enough about them to say one way or the other.



It is not I who say that, but psychologists. Adults use different coping mechanisms, unless they learned dissociation as a child.



I understand what you are saying now. I think all of these are real, but the more appropriate term for them would be 'denial.' And of course anyone and everyone engages in that from time to time. It is another coping mechanism, but can sometimes be spiritually harmful, certainly.



Fair enough. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want.



That unbelief is always a sin? No, I don't believe that. Unbelief is a stage in our journey of faith, and is not under judgement. It is part of being human. Remember the words, "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief." Is this not a prayer that each one of us could say, every day? I see no sin in such a prayer.

I know what "psychologists" say, must mean it is true!

I also consult experts on the talmud to tell me what God is thinking -- because they are experts!

Unbelief is a sin, and I did not say that in that post, it is "missing the mark". Hence, if you or your family members have diseases, death, accidents and such as that -- don't complain to God! Because if you were Jesus and not missing the mark it wouldn't be happening.

You are correct I am entitled to believe what I want.

Lol... I mean, everything works out for me and my small network of friends and family (growing that).

Why on earth would I want to change places with someone else who has all of the bad things that happen to people?

Heck, I don't mind carrying their cross for them, but they usually will tell me how they are too busy because they are reading "what the experts have to say".

So, whatever.

I mean, this almost sounds cruel when people have been through traumatic events, though the whole point is to go: gee whiz, I know there are countless people out there who say that these things are really not there and can be prayed away or believed away and they are liars. I am sorry about that. But, then where would faith be if there was no challenge to it?

The Spirit of Christ is mighty and just requires a kick start sometimes so people can stop doubting and listening to what unbelieving skeptics say - the so-called "experts" - and start listening to what Jesus said as recorded by the Apostles.

But the wicked "experts" of course do not end in science nor medicine, but they are all over the place. They are in churches. They are in the media.

And they go out there pronouncing with very serious faces of their so-called "knowledge".

What is sick is many of these "experts" even claim to actually believe to understand God or to believe simple facts like "God is omnipotent and omnipresent". Yet, when they trust in these experts of the world whom the Apostles unceasingly warned against and deny the truth Jesus spoke -- what is that?

So, yes, I can believe what I want to believe and pity others who have miserable lives because of these experts people gather around them to tell them what their itching ears want to hear -- and what is really sick is these "experts" are the very ones keeping these poor people down.

It is like they actually get off on keeping poor and miserable people down.

But it is true, I can believe what I want to believe. Thank God for that! And when we who believe tell others and they do not believe, we can just shake our heads and go: you know, with that kind of attitude you are going to keep having problems in your life and never be able to do anything about it.

Now, granted, such things are very, very hard to believe because of all of the things people are taught.

But is this hard to believe with the Spirit of Christ in one's heart? No. Not once one hears the truth and holds to it. Such things are trivial matters.

 

[Catherineanne]

I know what "psychologists" say, must mean it is true!

When talking about rocket science, no. When talking about psychology, yes. If they coin the term, then they have the right to define it.

Unbelief is a sin, and I did not say that in that post, it is "missing the mark". Hence, if you or your family members have diseases, death, accidents and such as that -- don't complain to God! Because if you were Jesus and not missing the mark it wouldn't be happening.

I am not sure what this is all about, but it would appear to be off topic. Thank God for that. Saves me trying to disentangle it.

You are correct I am entitled to believe what I want.

Quite so.

Peace be with you.

 

[heron]

This discussion is loaded with gems!

God is not "out there" or "up there", He is in our hearts and on our lips... and going "out" to try and seek God just makes people forget what is important: Kingdom of God in our hearts.

this is from God and He instituted it.

That's the main difference between scriptural cases and doing it on your own -- these were experiences God initiated.

if you try to move your spirit, that is wrong, but if you have no control like I experienced then there is nothing you can do anyways.

I agree.

Imagine if we astral-projected, and got lost! Could not find how to return to our bodies. This is a realm we have so little control over.

I found myself being 'pulled out' of my body against my will.

i have had a brush with it when a child and continued to have problems for many years related to this until God intervened and freed me from some things

Notice how happening when young did not reflect evidence of its innocence.

In fact, since the very term OOBE came from 2 Cor 12, in certain conditions OOBEs are clearly biblical. I would agree with others that witchcraft should be avoided, but witchcraft = rebellion.

Scripture shows witchcraft as an effort to control things that should not be controlled. Using diverse supernatural forces to get what we want, instead of what benefits others.

Furthermore, from other research I have conducted on another website, I posted the same question more or less, on an very large art/culture website and there was an overwealming number of accounts of people who claimed they have had OBE's. Some quite extraordinary, and i can see hoe very dangerous and how spiritually wrong the act is.

A speaker came to our church once, who tried to encourage everyone to do OBE's. It disturbed me that our church was more into the hype of "cool stuff" than protecting its flock. The speaker described losing many hours out of a day, but considering it worth it. Most people in our congregation did not have the luxury of disappearing from their families and jobs for unlimited amounts of time to go see cool stuff.

What was said earlier about God already being with us is important. His power can work through us while we're in our bodies, if we set our minds to helping others instead of our selves.

 

[Catherineanne]

Imagine if we astral-projected, and got lost! Could not find how to return to our bodies. This is a realm we have so little control over.

This is an important consideration. Putting aside the language of astral projection, which is far too New Age for my taste, it is possible for a dissociative state to become extreme enough to create multiple personalities, again happening from childhood or not at all, or even to lead to insanity. But those are extremes.

However, as I already said, it is not something people can dabble with at will. Imagining yourself to be somewhere else is not dissociation, however vivid, and it is not any kind of projection. It is only imagination.

 

[heron]

Similarly, dissociation provides protection to the psyche, and enables it to heal. Once a sufficient level of healing is reached, the dissociation will fade away.

Your information on dissociation was valuable to the discussion. Since trauma-induced separation is so similar to voluntary universe-hopping, we can gain understanding of pros and cons, possibilities, dangers, and benefits.

Someone earlier pointed out that several religions began from visions/visitations/OBE's. And a comparison was made between scriptural description and a first-hand view. We humans have a tendency to think that a mighty experience proves that it was correct or from God. But history shows that we can get swayed by conflicting sources.

So, how do we decide if what we see is accurate, or true, or godly? A powerful experience will always seem like first-hand source information. Joseph Smith was completely convinced that it was correct. Muhammed was completely convinced. But both of them had visions that conflicted with each other.

There is also a tendency I have seen, where the first vision could have been from God, and the second and third seemed self-driven to defend the first vision, or embellish on it. Can we trust ourselves to leave out our own desires and fears, and continue to have pure experiences?

Delving into the supernatural realm is like playing with the sharks. We can do it, but will we still own the shirts on our backs at the end of it?

 

[heron]

This is an important consideration. Putting aside the language of astral projection, which is far too New Age for my taste, it is possible for a dissociative state to become extreme enough to create multiple personalities, again happening from childhood or not at all, or even to lead to insanity. But those are extremes.

Imagining yourself to be somewhere else is not dissociation, however vivid, and it is not any kind of projection. It is only imagination.

I wonder if there are some differences between the two. The people I have met who do this have very clear visions of locations and beings. Things appear very real to them.

The hospital patients in comas who speak of OBE's have been able to repeat conversations in other rooms, and tell what clothes visitors in the hall were wearing. So I think there is similarity but also some difference.

Interesting you should mention the multiples. I met someone on the forum who'd had trouble with this. I don't know the whole story.

 

[Catherineanne]

Your information on dissociation was valuable to the discussion. Since trauma-induced separation is so similar to voluntary universe-hopping, we can gain understanding of pros and cons, possibilities, dangers, and benefits.

Understanding is good. Taking out the spurious relationship with evil and the occult is also good.

Someone earlier pointed out that several religions began from visions/visitations/OBE's. And a comparison was made between scriptural description and a first-hand view. We humans have a tendency to think that a mighty experience proves that it was correct or from God. But history shows that we can get swayed by conflicting sources.

This is true. Pretty well every faith has its mystics, and comparing mystical experiences between faiths reveals a lot of similarities.

So, how do we decide if what we see is accurate, or true, or godly? A powerful experience will always seem like first-hand source information. Joseph Smith was completely convinced that it was correct. Muhammed was completely convinced. But both of them had visions that conflicted with each other.

Always assume that what is in your head is of your head. That, I would say, is the first essential. Don't ascribe anything in your head to God, or the angel Gabriel or anyone else.

The second essential is to understand that if you are being given a message in a dream, vision or mystical experience, 99 times out of 100 that is a message from your unconscious to your conscious mind. Investigate that first, and it will pretty well invariably be true.

Thirdly, if you have any doubts whatever, talk with your minister. Preferably one not obsessed with finding satan everywhere.

There is also a tendency I have seen, where the first vision could have been from God, and the second and third seemed self-driven to defend the first vision, or embellish on it. Can we trust ourselves to leave out our own desires and fears, and continue to have pure experiences?

Delving into the supernatural realm is like playing with the sharks. We can do it, but will we still own the shirts on our backs at the end of it?

Dissociation is not about the supernatural, but about the natural. It is about our minds protecting themselves from pain. It is no more supernatural than pulling our hand out of a fire, and then seeing a blister form to protect the burn.

 

[Catherineanne]

I wonder if there are some differences between the two. The people I have met who do this have very clear visions of locations and beings. Things appear very real to them.

The hospital patients in comas who speak of OBE's have been able to repeat conversations in other rooms, and tell what clothes visitors in the hall were wearing. So I think there is similarity but also some difference.

I think on both of those I would be listed among the sceptics, and ascribe these to a vivid imagination or dream. Coma patients being aware within the room, maybe. Outside the room? Not so much.

Interesting you should mention the multiples. I met someone on the forum who'd had trouble with this. I don't know the whole story.

It is called Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), and is a very difficult condition to deal with. There was indeed someone on this forum with it; I haven't heard from her for a while; must see if she is still around.

 

[heron]

Dissociation is not about the supernatural, but about the natural. It is about our minds protecting themselves from pain. It is no more supernatural than pulling our hand out of a fire, and then seeing a blister form to protect the burn.

What a nice way of putting it... for trauma patients.

There was indeed someone on this forum with it; I haven't heard from her for a while; must see if she is still around.

We are probably thinking of the same person.

Pretty well every faith has its mystics, and comparing mystical experiences between faiths reveals a lot of similarities.

We don't all want to hear this, but it has been documented for centuries. That is good reason for caution in deciding that what we see during an episode is really from God, or real, or worth telling others.

Even in a Charismatic congregation of strong believers, there are conflicting messages people feel are from God. That should lead us to weigh these experiences more carefully (instead of declaring one less spiritual).

 

[Catherineanne]

What a nice way of putting it... for trauma patients.

Possibly because that I am myself a ptsd sufferer, and dissociation is one symptom of ptsd. It is highly unpleasant when it occurs, but it is there to protect from pain. Trauma and its aftermath has nothing whatever to do with the occult, and everything to do with nature achieving survival, at any cost.

Sometimes the cost is very high indeed. But survival is what matters.

 

[Catherineanne]

All of that seeking which matters is what is in the heart. People judge, but are they your Master? No, God is the Master. He is the Maker of every single person.

This is indeed true.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Experiences with the occult: Every adept I met who could, astral travel at will, and or send and receive thoughts and images, etc., was, possessed. The possession was however not revealed, until a confrontation of sorts occurred wherein, the adept attempted to in some way exercise control over me.

I believe God revealed to me a few things regarding these matters:

1) Sin : We desire spiritual experience and sin : Experiencing joyful fellowship with God and deliberately living in sin does not work. However, one can experience spiritual highs and simultaneously enjoy sin.

2) Humility: If we wait upon the Lord, and, seek the counsel of his word allowing it to judge us, and, our experiences, we remain humble. We are kept in check. We then have understanding.

However, the overwhelming nature of some of the experiences one can have when dabbling with the occult can either overload our senses and actually cause an addiction to the experience, or, so confuse our sensibilities that we can be convinced we've received "special" revelations from God. We might even begin to think of ourselves as "special" and go so far as to consider ourselves to be GOD. Many occultists and new age material teaches that we are God. Of course if we are grounded in scripture this is immediately refuted by our spirit.

3) God, can, does, will, give us the experiences we NEED at the appropriate times, in the appropriate way to accomplish His will. If that is our goal, to accomplish His will, we won't seek these other experiences, for experience sake. Rather we will seek His council, guidance, understanding, and, direction ONLY. For He is able, and, He sees all things. He is our Father, protector, healer, Saviour, and, our dependence is upon Him and the revelation of His word, whereby all our experiences are to be judged.

4) PEACE : His peace which passes all understanding and is continually available can not be duplicated. Nor can the experience of the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, nor the accompanying sense of innocence (most prized). What God promises us is PEACE and POWER to defeat our enemies (spiritual) through our testimony and His blood which is also part of our testimony (the cross/salvation) and not, that we are to become like God's in the earth. Rather we are called being servants of the most high God, and, obedient children of God. Obedient even unto death, if so called, in his service.

PEACE,
JWN

 

[toolite]

I will explain; so I have read extensively about Out of Body Experiences, also called "astral projection" or "spirit walking". Its pretty much going into a state where you can separate your physical body form your soul.

what do you think? do think this is some sort of evil? i think its cool, but i dont know what people think of it.

wikipedia says:
Out-of-body Experience.


Out-of-Body Experience (OBE or sometimes OOBE), is an experience that typically involves a sensation of floating outside of one's body...

In some cases the phenomenon appears to occur spontaneously; in others it is associated with a physical or mental trauma, use of psychedelic drugs, dissociative drugs, or a dream-like state. Many techniques aiming to induce the experience deliberately have been developed, for example visualization while in a relaxed, meditative state."

Some of those who experience OBEs claimed to have willed themselves out of their bodies, while others report having found themselves being pulled from their bodies (usually preceded by a feeling of paralysis). In other accounts, the feeling of being outside the body was suddenly realized after the fact, and the experiencers saw their own bodies almost by accident.

Ways of entering the state: by accident or through sleep, via deep trance, meditation or visualization. The types of visualizations vary; some common imageries used include climbing a rope to "pull out" of one's body, floating out of one's body, getting shot out of a cannon, and other similar approaches. This technique is considered hard to use for people who cannot properly relax. One example of such a technique is the popular Golden Dawn "Body of Light" Technique.


******


Ok so know you know a little about it, what do you think? is this bad or good? has anyone done it? do you know of anyone who has done it.

Going into the spirit is a great thing from God! Like a gift and blessing all at the same time. I would say always give all the credit to God for your experiences and always let your experiences be God driven. The Holy Ghost is the one who helps you to go into the spirit and God gave the authority. There are so many things that can be done in the spirit. Sticking to God is the best practice. The world will try to teach you to go into the realm by other practices but, always stick with God nor don't get ahead of God. Stay Blessed!

All The Glory Belongs To God!