Trying to live forever is the worst thing you can do

[dlamberth]

All of this Heaven and Lake of Fire talk reminds me of something I came across that strikes at the center of how I approach these things. It goes like this:

“If I Adore You

If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty.”
― Rabia al Basri

 

[Halbhh]

I realize that we both come into this discussion from our own perspectives. With our own views on what constitutes 'me', and what would constitute a 'simulation' of me.

For example from my perspective as a solipsist the two of them look identical. For one thing there's the material manifestation of me, with no way that I know of to determine whether it's physically real or just an avatar.

Then there's the squishy part. That jumble of neurons and synapses, with chemicals and electrical signals that we call the brain. But how do I know that those aren't actually circuits, with gates and algorithms running on a computer somewhere?

And then there's the third part, the conscious part. The part that's witty and temperamental. That likes to argue about things on internet forums. That loves dogs and dislikes broccoli. After all, that's the part that I most deeply associate with being "me". ChatBots may be able to mimic it, but will they ever be able to really produce it?

That's the $64,000 question. The one that has long left me wondering... am I real or am I a simulation... and is the difference really that important? I suppose it is if you've sworn allegiance to a particular God or ideology. Or if you're wed to some particular version of cosmology. But I'm a solipsist, I'm not wed to anything except an honest and open search for the truth.

And there's the rub... how do I know? How do if know if this is all just pointless speculation. Answer: I don't. So I live life exactly the same way everyone else does, listening to people who are steadfastly convinced that their version of the truth is the only right one. Well I'm sorry, but I don't buy the idea that they've got some supernatural link to divine wisdom. They're just as likely to be self-deceived as they are to be divinely inspired.

I'm also confident of one thing... if there really is a God, and He's as loving as they claim He is, then I'll be just as welcome in heaven as anyone who's spent their life judging the sins of others, while pretentiously ignoring their own. They may claim to have their faith, but I'm not without mine as well.

While someone that thinks rationally and logically a lot to make decisions might reasonably guess (wrongly) that mostly their decisions are from logical thinking, it's known that is only illusory really. Instead, diverse structures/systems in the human brain compete with one another during making (even controlling the logical analytical mind far more than most people would guess) -- several widely studied dissimilar competing mental forces push against each other to see at any given moment which is the strongest and will get the control a particular thought or decision.

I want to offer someone other than me to show this, so I just looked up an article or 2 to help show you more on some of the competing forces in the brain, so you won't think it's just my preferred notion, etc. (instead, it's what I've learned, often to my surprise and sometimes with discomfort at the realities of how the human brain works being described and demonstrated in experiments)

These look like good overview articles that don't rely on a lot of experimental psychology jargon:

Emotions are far more decisive than many realize to influence thinking:

Council Post: How Your Emotions Influence Your Decisions

There is a constant and complex dance between emotions and feelings.

www.forbes.com

The Power of Emotions in Decision Making

How to use emotions constructively in decision making.

www.psychologytoday.com

Also, much happens in the brain before any conscious thought process that people consider 'rational' or 'logical' -- what people think is their logic is usually only an afterthought, only a mere verbalization of a decision the brain already made unconsciously, where several unconsciously forces contested to see which would control the thought or decision.

• Decision making often occurs without people giving much conscious thought to how they vote, what they buy, where they go on vacation or the way they negotiate a myriad of other life choices.

How Unconscious Thought and Perception Affect Our Every Waking Moment

Unconscious impulses and desires impel what we think and do in ways Freud never dreamed of

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[partinobodycular]

You shouldn't be sad, I'm not like you. I'm not supposed to be a KJV Only literalist. That's your job. Although personally I think that you can do better, but that's not my call. You are what you are and I'll do my best to appreciate that. Trying to appreciate others is a lesson that I learned many years ago out on the streets 'ministering' to the homeless. Although they did much more good for me than I ever did for them. It's a lesson that I'm still learning. Mostly I would just sit and watch a mix of homeless people, drug addicts, and just generally hard working people going about their daily routines with the occasional 'Christians' handing out their bible tracts and inquiring as to whether I know Jesus.

So when I read Matthew 22:8 I see something completely different than what you seem to see. I don't see a wedding attended by righteous people, I see ordinary people. I see homeless people and hard working people. Not so much Christians per se, as you might define them, but people. Just everyday people. The one's that I see as improperly attired are the self-righteous people, the ones who consider themselves to be somehow worthy of the King's generosity. Personally, I don't count myself among the likes of these, I count myself as I always have, as among the homeless.

Now I may not fit into your definition of a Christian and that's fine. I don't try to. I'm not one to care too much for labels anyway, and biblical mastery isn't something that I put a lot of stock in. Hence I'll often say things that you find unbiblical and I may even speculate about things that you find heretical. If that makes me unChristian so be it, I'll humbly live and die with what I am. As for Matthew 22:8, I can't say as to whether I'm properly attired, I'm certainly not dressed to impress, so if I'm there, don't expect me to be front and center, I'll be in the back.

All that being said, don't be sad, what will be, will be. But hopefully we understand each other a little better now.

 

[partinobodycular]

While someone that thinks rationally and logically a lot to make decisions might reasonably guess (wrongly) that all their decisions are only logical thinking driven, it's known that instead diverse structures/systems in the human brain compete with one another during making (even controlling the logical analytical mind far more than most people would guess) -- many unalike competing mental forces that push against each other to see at any given moment which is the strongest and will get the control a particular thought or decision.

Ah, I know this all too well. I've often wondered about the 'ghost in the machine'.

When it comes to solipsism most people are familiar with Descartes' "Cogito ergo sum"... "I think therefore I am", but for a solipsist that phrase is problematic, because it assumes that thinking is proactive. That 'I' am the one thinking, rather than this conscious thing that I call 'I' is merely the byproduct of something else's 'thinking'.

Now a rational person would just attribute that 'something else' to the subconscious brain, and that's perfectly reasonable. But to a solipsist it also indicates that there must be something else besides this conscious thing that I refer to as 'me'.

This leads to a very bewildering conclusion... I'm a trinity. There's the physical aspect of me. The thing that walks, and talks, and types on my keyboard. There's the conscious aspect of me. The part that remembers, and hopes, and is consciously aware of stupid ideas like this one. And then there's that 'something else', that thing that's constantly at work behind the curtain. It's as much a part of me as either of the other two are.

So when a solipsist like me says "I think therefore I am", there's more to 'I' than meets the eye.

 

[AV1611VET]

All that being said, don't be sad, what will be, will be. But hopefully we understand each other a little better now.

We do.

And I'd like to share one more Scripture with you, if I may.

You'll probably not like it.

I mean no disrespect or harm or insult to you.

It's just something I'd like you to keep in mind.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What would you do if a homeless man handed you a tract?

 

[partinobodycular]

It's just something I'd like you to keep in mind.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The day that I do any of those things you have my permission clock me in the head with a big rock. As far as I'm concerned I've never done any wonderful works. Some people may foolishly think that I have, but they're sorely mistaken... I HAVE NOT

What would you do if a homeless man handed you a tract?

Interesting question. Had lots of 'Christians' hand me tracts over the years, but never a homeless person. I'd probably do what I always do, say thank you. It's not the tract that bothers me so much, it's the spiel that often goes with it. Anything that started with "Do you know Jesus" were ones that I couldn't wait to get away from, that's such a bogus question. That's not to say that some people handing out tracts aren't absolutely amazing people. I can remember a nicely dressed middle aged woman in a rather questionable part of town, she wasn't handing out tracts, but she offered me money thinking I was homeless. I turned her down of course, but I couldn't help thinking that this was no place for a woman like her to be alone. She didn't know it, but she impressed the heck out of me, not because of anything she said about Christ... because she said nothing... I was impressed simply because she was there. The fact that she was a Christian... was a given.

Tracts may seem like a good idea, but they just end up littering the street. Come to think of it if a homeless person handed me a tract I'd probably buy them lunch. To be where they are and to have not lost faith... that's gotta be worth something.

I struggled with whether to post this or not. It makes me sound like too nice of a guy. So don't be surprised if I insult you shortly. It's nothing personal... I just have to balance the scales.

 

[AV1611VET]

The day that I do any of those things you have my permission clock me in the head with a big rock. As far as I'm concerned I've never done any wonderful works. Some people may foolishly think that I have, but they're sorely mistaken... I HAVE NOT.

So if there are many that do though -- and do them in Jesus' name even -- but Jesus says He never knew them, there must be something more to getting to Heaven that doesn't entail [what we call] salvation by works.

Did that thought ever come to mind?

 

[partinobodycular]

Did that thought ever come to mind?

Of course it has. But you may have a hard time understanding, it's all about what motivates those good works. If someone does good works in the hopes of getting to heaven, then those works are worthless, for they bring with them no reward of their own. But if someone does good works, simply because they're heart compels them to, then they've already received their reward. It's the fulfillment that they feel in having done them. Hence men receive the reward for their works not from some mystical God in heaven, but from the works themselves.

You may choose to believe that we'll receive our rewards in heaven, and you may be right, I'm not one to know such things, but truly good works have already been rewarded, and self-serving works never will be, because if you're looking ahead for a reward then it means that you've already missed it.

At least that's how I see it, but perhaps you're wiser than I am, who knows.

 

[partinobodycular]

Of course it has. But you may have a hard time understanding, it's all about what motivates those good works. If someone does good works in the hopes of getting to heaven, then those works are worthless, for they bring with them no reward of their own. But if someone does good works, simply because they're heart compels them to, then they've already received their reward. It's the fulfillment that they feel in having done them. Hence men receive the reward for their works not from some mystical God in heaven, but from the works themselves.

You may choose to believe that we'll receive our rewards in heaven, and you may be right, I'm not one to know such things, but truly good works have already been rewarded, and self-serving works never will be, because if you're looking ahead for a reward then it means that you've already missed it.

At least that's how I see it, but perhaps you're wiser than I am, who knows.

@AV1611VET et al, I realize that the preceding posts have been way off topic, and that nobody has asked a followup question, but I just thought that I'd try to put the above quote in context.

I understand that traditional Christians believe that we'll get rewarded for our good deeds in heaven, and the idea that the only reward we'll get is a warm, fuzzy feeling probably seems extremely disappointing. You mean that I did all these wonderful works and I don't even get a stupid T-shirt?

But if you really need a reward then consider a world in which people do good deeds simply because they want to, and heaven isn't a wonderful place because of the riches in it, it's a wonderful place because of the people in it.

Now atheists and agnostics may think that this is all just wishful thinking, and it probably is... I've never been a big fan of a magical wonderland called heaven. I'd much prefer to think that 'heaven' is just naive man's mythical way of saying the future.

But in either case, whether you believe in a magical place called heaven, or you just believe in tomorrow, the reward for doing good deeds lies simply in doing good deeds. Ahh, but you may wonder how you can be sure that all these good deeds will ever come to fruition... well there my friend lies the need for faith.

 

[AV1611VET]

But if you really need a reward then consider a world in which people do good deeds simply because they want to, and heaven isn't a wonderful place because of the riches in it, it's a wonderful place because of the people in it.

You can restore an old beat-up car to pristine condition.

Make it shine so bright, you need shades to look at it.

But if there's no gas in the tank, that car's not going anywhere.

Listen to the words to this song, which explains it nicely:

 

[partinobodycular]

You can restore an old beat-up car to pristine condition.

Make it shine so bright, you need shades to look at it.

Yeah, but there's something special about the water this old car is washed in. And you don't make it go just by slapping some fancy name on it.

 

[AV1611VET]

And you don't make it go just by slapping some fancy name on it.

No argument there.

Some people are CINOs (Christian In Name Only).

Famous examples would be the Crusaders, the Salem Witch Trials, and the Inquisition.

 

[oikonomia]

Lets`s say, that your theory, that the universe will just end dark and cold. If you actually managed to make yourself live forever, be invincible, wouldn`t you just be trapped in a dark universe forever, with nothing to do but explore dead planets? You might say there`s a heaven, but if not, you could end up in an eternal nightmare?

When man is in full harmony with God, He and God cooperate to do what is needed in the universe for the sake of His
righteous kingdom.

In the OT Joshua being one with God's will petitioned that the sun would remain and not set and the moon would
not go away, UNTIL the army of Jehovah won the battle against their foes. (Joshua 10:11-13)

Also in the OT Hezekiah asked God that the sundial shadow would go backwards rather than forwards.
These are astounding divine interference with the normal proceedings of the cosmos. (2 Kings 20:8-11)
But the point is that they were done because the men involved were at harmony with God's heart and kingdom.

In the New Testament we are told that the whole creation groans in waiting for the sons of God to be manifested.
That is to say the creation is pleading "Hurry up! Hurry up sons of God and become full grown and mature, that we too may be
liberated from this decay and vanity."

Read it and let your faith be nourished.

For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:19-23)

The key to the rescue of the universe from decay and vanity is the manifestation of sons of God, brothers of the Firstborn Son, Christ,
fully in harmony with the administration and kingdom of a Righteous God and Creator.

 

[sparow]

Lets`s say, that your theory, that the universe will just end dark and cold. If you actually managed to make yourself live forever, be invincible, wouldn`t you just be trapped in a dark universe forever, with nothing to do but explore dead planets? You might say there`s a heaven, but if not, you could end up in an eternal nightmare?

When you say "you" I presume you men "me".

I have the idea that the human race will not live forever; I see three possibilities, first, the human race is an embryo, or larvae for a higher form of existence, two, the human race will learn to make it's own light, and three, a combination of one and two.

God said, "Let there be light," before that God did not need light.

Men will need fuel for energy into eternity, obviously coal will not last that long.