Trying to accept that God is loving

Walter Kovacs · Mar 7, 2011

And, if some take the Bible literally, some don't, and some take only parts of it literally, how do you which what verses actually mean what they say?

You have to understand the various genres in the Bible; writing isn't broken up into either NON-FICTION-TRUE or FICTION-FALSE. A vast amount of the imagery in the Bible is not meant as literal theological treatises. If i remember correctly, the lake of fire is used exclusively in Revelation, which is a prophetic/apocalyptic book that relies almost exclusively on imagery ie the Dragon, the Horsemen, etc. but I don't believe they are necessarily to be taken absolutely literally. The fact is that no one can say for absolute certain that hell is this or hell is that; it's open for interpretation. It exists...that's about all we have as absolute solid data.

We can take certain parts such as Romans pretty literally (but even then theres a lot of imagrey) as oppose to say, Genesis or Revelation. Remember, these folks were Jews; the Hebrew people used imagrey in order to convey a message to be understood in the heart and mind, not just a set of data for academic dissection.

Also, did you read my previous posts? Those are more Eastern Orthodox in their thinking, and they have a more acceptable (and imo more accurate) idea of the afterlife than fire-and-brimstone preaching. I don't necessarily 100% agree with every point but it's definitely a different view of the afterlife than most Westerners have heard.

solarwave · Mar 7, 2011

Rasa said:
So what is your take on the verses in the Bible that talk of eternal fires of hell?

And, if some take the Bible literally, some don't, and some take only parts of it literally, how do you which what verses actually mean what they say?

I would say they are metaphorical for the rejection of God and goodness. Whatever the consequences of evil they are bad.

Hard work? It is only somewhat recently that I changed from thinking the Bible is totally infallible to thinking that there can be errors so I havn't got it fully figured out.

Still even if the Bible were infallible you would still need to interpret what is said. There are many different theologies even when people agree that the Bible is fallible.

I guess its a process and a development. I can't give you any easy rules at the moment though.

aiki · Mar 7, 2011

Did I say God cared?!

Did I say that you did?

That is the point of this thread - I cannot see things the way Christians do.

Cannot? Or will not? If you cannot -- that is, seeing things as Christians do is impossible for you -- then there's little point in asking them to tell you how they see things. I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just wondering at your motives for posting questions the answers to which you are, for some reason, completely unable to grasp.

And, like I have said - I do not understand how Christians see things.

Which means I do not understand all His definitions and so I will ask and try to understand.

Fair enough. I have written a number of things trying to make a biblical perspective clear but you haven't responded to any of things I've pointed out. I find that puzzling...

But, that also means that if I can't understand or agree with it, nothing will make me.

Of course. A square cannot be a circle; a frog cannot be made to fly like a bird. You cannot be made to understand something you are incapable of understanding. I have this issue with calculus.

But, that will not stop me asking. If you don't like me questioning things, then ignore the thread and post elsewhere.

I don't have any problem at all with your questioning; just with your willingness or capacity to benefit from the answers you receive.

Selah.

.Iona. · Mar 7, 2011

aiki said:
I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just wondering at your motives for posting questions the answers to which you are, for some reason, completely unable to grasp.

It's not like a maths question - you can't just give an answer and then it's all done and I understand it.

Faith isn't something that comes easy to everyone. Just because people give their opinions on things, doesn't mean that I will read it and then understand it in my heart. It takes time.

A murderer could sit there and answer your questions, but does that mean you will then understand, agree and change your way of thinking immediately or even at all?

aiki · Mar 7, 2011

It's not like a maths question - you can't just give an answer and then it's all done and I understand it.

I'm willing to explain more about those things which I have written to you, if that will help. What needs clarification?

Faith isn't something that comes easy to everyone.

The Bible tells us that faith in God doesn't come to anyone unless God imparts it to them!

Just because people give their opinions on things, doesn't mean that I will read it and then understand it in my heart. It takes time.

So, is it all just a matter of opinion to you? If so, how do you decide which opinions to accept and which to reject?

A murderer could sit there and answer your questions, but does that mean you will then understand, agree and change your way of thinking immediately or even at all?

That depends upon what the murderer tells me. If he is speaking the truth, it doesn't really matter to the truth of what he is saying that he is a murderer. The truth is the truth no matter who speaks it. But I think I understand what you're saying. It isn't easy to accept things you don't like to hear.

Selah.

drich0150 · Mar 7, 2011

Rasa said:
The idea that people deserve to be tortured (be it literally in fire, or something similar) for eternity is crazy when all they have done is not believed in God, or had sex before marriage etc. I am sure you have heard the saying before about the crime not fitting the punishment - I have never understood how people can say we are deserving of hell. [/QUOTE]Fire or something similar does not make Hell, Hell.

Hell is not a place per say. Hell is the opposite of a place it is the complete absents of God. What Makes Hell, Hell is not being apart of Creation or with God. Those who choose to be with God have to find atonement for their sins. Those who do not want to be with God have to go to Hell because it is the only place God does not reside.

God will not force someone who does not want to be with Him to be with Him. The complete absents of God and His creation is known as Hell.

I don't see how this fits into what I was saying?

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See your next statement below. (You will only love God if...) This is not love this is bargaining. One can not bargain for true love.

I am holding back my love because I cannot give my love to someone that I see as punishing us for no good reason. I do not see lack of faith being a good enough reason to go to hell.

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actually no your not. You admitted that you are hold back love for God because you do not understand the reasons for Heaven and Hell and you also admitted that you did not know if you wanted to know the true reasons. You simply want to stand in judgment of God and maybe "shame Him" into doing things your way... Well you may get your wish, it just might not go down like you planned. Meaning you may get to spend eternity with the unbelieving members your family.

The problem I have with your metaphors are that they are not anywhere near equal to the idea of hell.

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they're not supposed to be. There are to simply show proof of concept. You do not want to open your mind beyond your concept of heaven or Hell or how it is you been taught to think of these places. What my metaphors are trying to do is to allow a baby step in the direction of understanding a larger concept. I honestly think you can see this step in a direction you do not want to take, and have chosen to side line the whole effort because it does not coincide with the whole "Shaming God" till you get what you want plan.

I see what you are trying to say, but still they do not work when you are comparing a frightened child at a theme park and a person going to hell.

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If you can see the underlining love it takes for someone to acknowledge a child's mind set (We are all children in this life) and respect his decision even though most children would jump at the chance to go. then you might be able to place the love and restraint it takes a loving God to not funnel people into Heaven against their will.

You mean he will only allow those who do what he asks to be with him? Because he is god, he could easily change things if he wanted to.

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This is the shame and judgment you bring to God that I spoke of earlier. If you think of God this way then it can easily be said you do not understand the very nature of God in which you speak. And yet you stand in judgment of Him using your own personal version of Righteousness to judge God.

To say he respects the decision of people not to be with him makes me laugh in shock to be honest. That's like a parent saying to their child do not run into the road because it is bad, but I respect that you have a choice to do it.

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no it is not.It is like a parent offering a child a choice to either be with Parent A or B. and then respecting the choice the child makes for eternity.

It's not like that at all. I can't love him right now because I cannot see that he is loving. Everything that I know about him does not feel loving. So regardless of whether or not he loves me, I can't love him because of the whole hell issue.

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Then perhaps if you can not see love then ask God to open your eyes to what love really is.

If god doesn't like the way I live my life, then fine - i won't go to heaven. But, there is nothing in my life that is deserving of being punished in hell fire for the rest of forever.

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Why do you clinger to this medieval idea of live a good life, goto Heaven? This is NOT what Christianity is about. if you think it is then please show me were in the bible it says we must live a good enough life and we get to goto Heaven.

I am not saying that he should just allow everyone to be evil and kill and still be given everything in heaven, but no one id deserving of eternity in hell.

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Again, and Again, and Again. Heaven and hell are not about what we deserve. Heaven is not a place for the Good, and Hell is not a place for the bad.

Paul tell us no one is "good" and that we are all deserving of Hell all of us even the popes. So if Heaven is not for the good who is it for? All of the people who want to be with God and seek atonement for their sins.

So what is Hell? separation from God to all of the souls who do not want to be with Him for an eternity.

Again, the examples do not work for me when looking at hell

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then again, and again do not look at hell. Look at the concept I am illustrating or just admit openly what it is you are doing here. in that you want to shame God into doing things your own way.

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Exial · Mar 7, 2011

Rasa said:
You seem to understand where I am coming from.

This is what confuses me. People claim that god is loving, but He still allows people to go to hell - which sounds like the worst possible thing to experience. It is like bribery and threatening people to do what he says.

Is is the main thing that causes doubt and makes me question why I would want to worship someone like that - regardless of whether he created me. I can't stop him doing to me what he wants, but I don't know if I could worship him for what is is doing.

People who claim god are loving but acknowledge he lets people go to hell are simply, wrong. A loving god would not allow that. If you loved something you would not wish to see it burn, unless you were evil.

If the Bible has errors does this mean Christianity is wrong?

No, it means the bible is an untrustworthy source of information and should be viewed with scepticism.

solarwave · Mar 7, 2011

Exial said:
People who claim god are loving but acknowledge he lets people go to hell are simply, wrong. A loving god would not allow that. If you loved something you would not wish to see it burn, unless you were evil.

It would require more arugment than this to prove it though.

No, it means the bible is an untrustworthy source of information and should be viewed with scepticism.

You would apply this sentance to most books ever writen and most things most people know as well though?

EyesOfKohl · Mar 7, 2011

Exial said:
People who claim god are loving but acknowledge he lets people go to hell are simply, wrong. A loving god would not allow that. If you loved something you would not wish to see it burn, unless you were evil.

Don't you think love works both ways? You expect Him to love you and give you everything, but what do you do for Him?

EyesOfKohl · Mar 7, 2011

Rasa said:
If god doesn't like the way I live my life, then fine - i won't go to heaven. But, there is nothing in my life that is deserving of being punished in hell fire for the rest of forever.

I am not saying that he should just allow everyone to be evil and kill and still be given everything in heaven, but no one id deserving of eternity in hell.

A man walking in the market place misplaces his money. Another man who observes the situation has two choices.

1] He picks up the money and runs after the man to return it to him.

2] He pockets the money for himself.

Tell me, is option 1 equal to option 2 or do you think there is a reward in returning the money in option 1?

daniel82 · Mar 7, 2011

Rasa said:
It's not like a maths question - you can't just give an answer and then it's all done and I understand it.

Faith isn't something that comes easy to everyone. Just because people give their opinions on things, doesn't mean that I will read it and then understand it in my heart. It takes time.

A murderer could sit there and answer your questions, but does that mean you will then understand, agree and change your way of thinking immediately or even at all?

your right for some of us Faith doesn't come easy. And when we do have it the devil will do his best to take it away. I'll pray for you that you will understand see that God loves you. I've been where your at right now with Faith. God had to knock me off my feet I had to loose everything before i saw how he was the one making everything possible in my life. How he carried me through all the hard times. and that everytime i would try to do good the devil was there to mess it up. this time i didn't give up i kept going right on through all the bad. We all need to understand that we need to give it all to God, our lives problems everything. and he'll bless you with all you need and want. But we need to trust in him, This isn't our fight it never has been.

DON'T let people or the Devil get you down about hell because if your a member of his Church you can repent thats why its there. So if first you don't succeed try try again. Remember the thief on the cross he went to heaven that day with Jesus. God has the power to do what is Just. as far as a murder or anybody that has sinned, no sin is little or big to God. Thats something man started. PAUL the apostle that did the most still sinned he repented also, Just like all the rest of the apostles, Deciples and bretheren that follow his word today. Amen

Your in my prayers

Exial · Mar 7, 2011

solarwave said:
It would require more arugment than this to prove it though

I disagree. Its quite simple concept.

If you punish something with eternal torture you cannot truly love* it. Nor can you claim to be loving.

I cannot imagine even just 1 hour of unrelenting torture, the prospect of an eternity is mind boggling. The most sickening punishment anybody could bestow on anyone.

*definition of love = strong feeling of affection and personal attachment

You would apply this sentance to most books ever writen and most things most people know as well though?

Anything that claims divine and indisputable truth such as the Bible should be viewed with scepticism as its claims are most probably false.

daniel82 · Mar 7, 2011

Zatara Kriszto said:
Don't you think love works both ways? You expect Him to love you and give you everything, but what do you do for Him?

Thank God i was reading through this thread and thought no one understood anything about love
its a TWO WAY STREET
imean he made the earth for us he gave us life he gave us women he gave us cloths water food to eat when we first sinned he gave us a way to come back to him he gave us his son who came from heaven paradise to become subject to the same as we are living down here to also give his LIFE he was tortured down here by us he didn't have to leave heaven he came himself and fulfilled the plan for salvation and now people want to complain about that too no wonder things are going the way were going

Man can go to the moon but doesn't have enough commonsense to do what God tells him to avoid an eternity in Tartarsus

daniel82 · Mar 7, 2011

Exial said:
I disagree. Its quite simple concept.

If you punish something with eternal torture you cannot truly love* it. Nor can you claim to be loving.

I cannot imagine even just 1 hour of unrelenting torture, the prospect of an eternity is mind boggling. The most sickening punishment anybody could bestow on anyone.

*definition of love = strong feeling of affection and personal attachment

Anything that claims divine and indisputable truth such as the Bible should be viewed with scepticism as its claims are most probably false.

there is earthly wisdom and heavenly wisdom this definition of love is earthly
because this being the definition of love no wonder why people can't make it through marriage, they think this is the definition of love you can't put love into a definition just like man can't put God under a microscope

Exial · Mar 8, 2011

daniel82 said:
Man can go to the moon but doesn't have enough commonsense to do what God tells him to avoid an eternity in Tartarsus

Its nothing to do with common sense.

Its about not blindly believing what people tell based purely on their own merit. If someone claims to have knowledge of God, knows how to grant me eternal life in paradise and can save me from my own destruction then I will view that person with scepticism until they provide evidence that what they are saying is true. Christians are not the only ones who claim to have all the answers, virtually every religion does. If there is no evidence supporting any religion, how do you know which is the right one? Guess?

.Iona. · Mar 8, 2011

daniel82 said:
Thank God i was reading through this thread and thought no one understood anything about love
its a TWO WAY STREET

God is only one way from what I see. He is saying that he will only accept us if we do what he says.

Yet, we have to love him regardless of anything else.

solarwave · Mar 8, 2011

Exial said:
I disagree. Its quite simple concept.

If you punish something with eternal torture you cannot truly love* it. Nor can you claim to be loving.

I cannot imagine even just 1 hour of unrelenting torture, the prospect of an eternity is mind boggling. The most sickening punishment anybody could bestow on anyone.

*definition of love = strong feeling of affection and personal attachment

Some (I wouldn't) might say that when you sin you deserve hell. This would have to be proven wrong as well. Also some might say that people send themselves to hell, not God.

I would say hell isn't what you think it is if it is real.

Anything that claims divine and indisputable truth such as the Bible should be viewed with scepticism as its claims are most probably false.

I don't think the Bible claims to be infallible. Even if it did it could be wrong. It doesn't mean everything in it is.

I don't find it obvious simply from this that its claims are probably wrong. I agree with being sceptical though.

elman · Mar 8, 2011

=Exial;56922058]I disagree. Its quite simple concept.

If you punish something with eternal torture you cannot truly love* it. Nor can you claim to be loving.

I cannot imagine even just 1 hour of unrelenting torture, the prospect of an eternity is mind boggling. The most sickening punishment anybody could bestow on anyone.

*definition of love = strong feeling of affection and personal attachment

I agree exceplt love as preached by Jesus is not just a strong feeling but is action on behalf of another as in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Hell is not pain and suffering after death in my opinion, but the lack of existence after physical death.

Anything that claims divine and indisputable truth such as the Bible should be viewed with scepticism as its claims are most probably false.

I believe the Bible has many mistakes in it, but I also believe it is the greatest book ever written by man and contains more divine truth and wisdom than any book I have read. If you have found one that has more divine truth and wisdom, tell me about it. It would seem to me to be foolish to throw out such a book, because you can find some mistakes.

Walter Kovacs · Mar 8, 2011

lol. love= feelings.

Also, it's interesting. To my knowledge, there's no explicit Bible verse that says, "A PERSON WILL BE TORTURED FOREVER." We get the idea of a negative afterlife, but plenty of folks don't believe it. Lots believe annhilationism, which also makes sense.

solarwave · Mar 8, 2011

Rasa said:
God is only one way from what I see. He is saying that he will only accept us if we do what he says.

Yet, we have to love him regardless of anything else.

Considering you don't seem to believe the Bible why do you have any reason to think this? Some of us here have said that it isn't necessary to believe in this kind of God and be Christian. You don't seem to have proven us wrong about this, so is there any reason you still think God is like this other than having it ingrained into your mind?

Trying to accept that God is loving

Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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