Truth pollution

[Johnny Be Good]

I don't know what Jesus is saying to you . However , Jesus tells me that , as long as I listen to Him , I won't be led off the road . I don't listen to humans . I may listen to them with one ear . But , if my spiritual ear ( if you will ) does not hear *Him* , anything and everything the human says can be discarded .


With respect to those others that could be potentially led off the road ... for them to be easily led that way would suggest to me that they have been convinced *by* humans that they should listen *to* humans and do not fully understand that the Lord is Lord and desires to teach them directly and can commune with them directly . It doesn't matter whether the person they listen to is a serpent or a saint , if the person has been convinced that they can only hear the Lord through human mediators only , they have already been led incorrectly .

OK--that shows me what's going on in your head...and heart...but what's your conclusion?

What is our conclusion here?

 

[Johnny Be Good]

You see i actually belong to a "pentecostal" type style church--this church is very large--with literally thousands of registered members.

I faithfully attend this santuary--and consider myself an active particpating member, as such, and yes i am in submission to leadership, in case anyboby is wondering.

But that does not mean--i have to conform, and agree with everything, that takes PLACE... under the roof-- of that santuary.

Let me give you just one--for instance--of what i speak

You see unity--does not mean THIS--"uniformity"

Or that we all become little --or mini-- protogeses-- of OUR pastor'S, and we mimick everything--or mirror everything around us.

Recently we had some " prophetic style ministry"... come and visit our assembly.

And before the main speaker --got up--to preach his sermon

We had a group of ladies who were from another continenent--and performed a particular "dance routine"--in the which--was somewhat familiar to their native culture, music, and dancing --i would assume

Anyway im not passing judgement on them --as such--or--the differering style-- im use to, suffice to say it was "probably not" what most pentecostals are use to themselves-- or familiar with.

The hand movements and the swinging of hips--and various gyrations etc etc

Anyway after their routine was over--the senior pastor--got up

And Was sorely dis-pleased that the congragation had not entered into the song and music routine--as--he would have hoped--from us

So he requested that they do their song and dance--all over again--basically-- an encore performance--was placed upon them, and us--the congregants

But this time he basically -- insisted--we do certain of the hand movements--to the chorus--and that we must swing this way--to the music--and then--that way to the singing [rah rah rah]

So basically it was more or less-- imposed upon us--and--expected of us--to do all these hand and arm motions and movements--to this visiting group of ladies and singers.

Regardless of wether you agreed with the music or dance style routine

YOU see at that point though--My own freedom -- or convictions--were being impinged and imposed upon, to a point of both conforming and that of conformity--or otherwise i was probably viewed as one who was the -- the stick in the mud, or your proverbial--party-pooper as such ! and the cop-outer.

However--the way i see things is --God does not want us-- to all be "cookie-cutter" lay outs of each other-- and become "protoges" and prototypes-- of one another --and nor that of..... "his"... senior pastor's and leaders "

UNITY IS NOT........ UNIFORMITY....and was... never meant to be. !!

Unity respects freedom and diversity of gifts-- and even individual personality

It would then: be wrong of us to go around trying to squeeze each others--into--our own little moulds or pre-conceived images, of what we want them to be or to become--or what we they should be in life. or in their own personal walks with Jesus

This is a sorely mis-understood aspect of christian "unity of the spirit" in the 21 century church--of today

And sadly: in most of your...... pentecostal and charismatic.... circles

And if you dare-- to buck or go against the grain of things--due to conscience or discernment, then you are perceived to be as one--of a rebel in God-- and are failing to submit to the "delegated authorities"--that be.

Well i fail to see--how--this is not--an abuse of that same authority, if we seek uniformity and conformity, to a point, we dis-respect other people's conscience, liberties, convictions, and freedom of choices in God, and to be led by his holy spirit.-in our own walks--with Jesus ??

And also: this whole thing of "pentecoastal pride" is an embarassment to our God

People are running around or preaching from pulpits " we are pentecostals" as if to mean--that somehow automatically distinguishes you--to be better--or higher up--the spiritual ladder--than other churches or groups

Im starting to understand like never before--what THE LORD JESUS--MEANT-- when he said this ...STATEMENT

THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE FIRST ( APPEAR HIGH UP..IN..THE SPIRITUAL PECKING ORDER OF THINGS )

( BUT WILL ACTUALLY BE LAST.....IOW..THAT ARE NOT AS HIGH AND LOFTY --AND SEATED AS HIGH--AS THEY THINK THEY--IN GOD'S ECONOMY OR ORDER OR.... SCHEME OF... THINGS )

AND THE LAST SHALL BE...... FIRST

AND im adressing issues of conformity and peer pressure in this post--and imposer's of themselves onto you--by way of controling tactics and methods of subtle manipulation--not so much teaching or doctrine espousement

YOU, my friend, are an interesting fellow. Let's sit down for a cup of coffee and a chat when we all get home.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

This is not a perfect world, and man still dwells in the body of this flesh. It is God alone who can intervene and direct our steps righteousness that we walk the correct paths. For the Spirit is willing, yet the flesh is weak.

What's your conclusion, Jim? What's your advice?

 

[amorosi]

Thanks John

After you and i--meet God the father, his son, the lord jesus

And men like peter, paul, james, and john, noah, moses, Elijah, ezekiel etc

So i"ll raincheck you on the coffee--until i meet all--of the above first

Then yes-- you and i dude--will sit down to that cup of latte or cappuciano, and with 2 sugars --and all white.

And we wil:l rejoice in God's great kingdom and the company of his saints-- for all of eternity--and with no time limits or times restrictions==glory glory glory

Since i laid my burden down !!

Bring it on down dude: i can't wait--im jumping out of my socks--even now as i sit here--in "down under"...... territory

 

[New_Wineskin]

OK--that shows me what's going on in your head...and heart...but what's your conclusion?

What is our conclusion here?

I was going to say that my conclusion was in the first paragraph but I am not sure that I stated it outright .

The Lord was telling me not to be concerned about such people . They can't do any harm to me because I don't listen to humans - only Him . I will allow them speak just as I desire to be allowed to speak .

edited to add : That is the conclusion for *me* . I don't subscribe to conclusions for *all* . That would be the opposite of what I just wrote .

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Good post Amorosi, I understand where you're coming from.

 

[Trish1947]

I agree with you too amorosi, I know too where you are coming from. I came out of a church, where the Pastor did alot of insisting we take part in certain things that did not set well with me. I thought for a long time there was something wrong with me..but finally it donned on me, Pastors are servents as well. And if certain ones in the body don't feel comfortable, they shouldn't be led as sheep to do something they are not comfortable with..Also what's wrong with going to the Pastor and telling him how you and maybe others feel.. Of coarse, you might be told you can always go somewhere else.. but then so be it.

We are to have as much peace in the body as possible. Yes we are sheep, but we're not to be dumb sheep.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I agree with you too amorosi, I know too where you are coming from. I came out of a church, where the Pastor did alot of insisting we take part in certain things that did not set well with me. I thought for a long time there was something wrong with me..but finally it donned on me, Pastors are servents as well. And if certain ones in the body don't feel comfortable, they shouldn't be led as sheep to do something they are not comfortable with..Also what's wrong with going to the Pastor and telling him how you and maybe others feel..

Good stuff .

Of coarse, you might be told you can always go somewhere else.. but then so be it.

Music to *my* ears .

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I was going to say that my conclusion was in the first paragraph but I am not sure that I stated it outright .

The Lord was telling me not to be concerned about such people . They can't do any harm to me because I don't listen to humans - only Him . I will allow them speak just as I desire to be allowed to speak .

edited to add : That is the conclusion for *me* . I don't subscribe to conclusions for *all* . That would be the opposite of what I just wrote .

I agree but sometimes that is easier said than done. If you go to a church that is constantly preaching that to think things through is wrong and you got people telliing you "just believe" and all the other stuff it's difficult to stop all the noise adn say "God what are YOU saying to me?"

That's what I felt about that personal scripture that God gave to me personally to claim for my personal situation. No-one else understood that scripture in the same way that God had told me to apply it. Taken at face value the scripture had nothing to do with my situation but when I asked God for a scripture THAT was the one He gave me.

I've had people prophesy over me saying "the Lord says you should do this or you should do that" and it was opposite what the Lord told me in my private times with Him. Then the persons would get upset and claim me rebellios because I chose to go the way "I" heard Him.

It's very frustrating to have others point at you and say "you did this, you did that, you think this, your heart is that" spewing out words they say are from God yet you know they are'nt because God has never spoke to me in the manner that person is. Yet, being a sensitive person as well, I sometime say, "are they right God? Am I being rebellious? Am I going to hell because I'm not accepting their prophetic word as from you?"

Sometimes we can just be so hurtful to each other...and we do it proclaiming that we are His voice and His hand. Thats all I'm wanting to point out.

Each of us has a different story of how God has directed our lives to where it is today. We've all depended on the same Word, the same God. Yet we've arrived at different stages, at different times, and in different ways. We all have things to share. Some of us are not where we should be yet as we keep our eyes on Him we can trust that He will guide us and He will be faithful to finish what He started in us and make sure that we do indeed end up in the right place. He is so faithful.

We are each a different puzzle piece of the picture that God is making. If we could all just be more patient and kind with each other maybe all the bickering and fighting could stop. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Trish1947]

Quaffer...I agree but sometimes that is easier said than done. If you go to a church that is constantly preaching that to think things through is wrong and you got people telliing you "just believe" and all the other stuff it's difficult to stop all the noise adn say "God what are YOU saying to me?"

Quaffer, I have been prophacied over so many times, its really a dread for me to see them coming. My quiet times with the Lord leads me in the directions I'm going.. I'm not saying that prophacy that edifies and builds you up is wrong, this is the good kind, but I have been told so many things that just are not true.
Another thing, stopping all the clamour is a good thing..it is "God what are you saying to me." I think I have have two prophacies over me, that was true, and they we're variifed by at least two others that did not know each other.

 

[NewSong]

Quaffer, I have been prophacied over so many times, its really a dread for me to see them coming. My quiet times with the Lord leads me in the directions I'm going.. I'm not saying that prophacy that edifies and builds you up is wrong, this is the good kind, but I have been told so many things that just are not true.
Another thing, stopping all the clamour is a good thing..it is "God what are you saying to me." I think I have have two prophacies over me, that was true, and they we're variifed by at least two others that did not know each other.

Wow this sounds like my brothers and my conversation. I have a really hard time with prophecy. Too many agenda's with it. When I get a true prophecy, usually the person giving it don't even know they are doing it and it usually don't come in the vehicle I thought God was going to use at the pulpit, though there are times it has and it shocked me too.

 

[amorosi]

Why do i get this feeling im being watched

ANd someone is looking over my shoulder ?? :o

Or following my tracks and footsteps

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Quaffer, I have been prophacied over so many times, its really a dread for me to see them coming. My quiet times with the Lord leads me in the directions I'm going.. I'm not saying that prophacy that edifies and builds you up is wrong, this is the good kind, but I have been told so many things that just are not true.
Another thing, stopping all the clamour is a good thing..it is "God what are you saying to me." I think I have have two prophacies over me, that was true, and they we're variifed by at least two others that did not know each other.

I decided to use this quote as a springboard to what I want to contribute. I also read your comments about personal prophecy as well, Quaffer.

Firstly, I want to nail my colours to the mast by saying that this type of personal prophecy is not real prophecy but a load of nonsense that comes mostly from the natural mind and a desire to spiritualise advice from those who get satisfaction from directing others in the way they think those people should go. It is a blatant misuse of the prophetic gift.

Personal prophecy, the way that God has shown it to me, is not directive, unless it comes in the form of The Word of Wisdom to answer a question or need that is already in the heart and mind of the receiver. It has to confirm something already existing in the receiver. If it is directive and the receiver does not acknowledge it, then it is from the natural and not the Spirit and should be rejected out of hand.

Personal prophecy can be instructive, encouraging, admonishing, exhorting, and should inspire faith, love, peace and joy in the receiver. It should come from a person who has spent many hours praying for others and waiting on God for His knowledge and wisdom for ministry. It should also come from a person who has a comprehensive and intimate knowledge of the Word of God in both Testaments. This takes much time to develop, even years.

I have been under development for 37 years since I gave my first prophecy, and I am only just entering through the front door of it.

I have given prophecies in this forum, and have been blessed out of my cotton socks when someone has responded with joy and praise to God for His love to them.

In all cases, true prophecy happens when God's love overflows for people and He wants to express His love for them. Receivers would know that the prophecies are true for them because they would sense the great love of the Father and the Son coming through.

People who have ulterior motives in giving prophecies are unable to transmit the love of God because the Holy Spirit is not motivating them. The natural mind cannot transmit the love of God. Once you know this, it is easy to tell the difference between a good prophecy and a bad one. The good prophecy gives you an almost overpowering sense of the love of God for you that underpins the theme of the word given to you.

Another thing that God showed me recently. Personal prophecy does not expose sin in a person. Conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit is very personal and private. God would never expose it to public view through personal prophecy. Prophecies that contain this element are NEVER of the Holy Spirit, and should be utterly rejected.

Overall, good prophecy always brings the fruit of the Spirit to the receiver (love, joy, peace, faith, patience, gentleness, goodness, self control, longsuffering). Here is the test for good prophets:
"By their fruits you shall know them."

 

[New_Wineskin]

I agree but sometimes that is easier said than done. If you go to a church that is constantly preaching that to think things through is wrong and you got people telliing you "just believe" and all the other stuff it's difficult to stop all the noise adn say "God what are YOU saying to me?"

That's what I felt about that personal scripture that God gave to me personally to claim for my personal situation. No-one else understood that scripture in the same way that God had told me to apply it. Taken at face value the scripture had nothing to do with my situation but when I asked God for a scripture THAT was the one He gave me.

I've had people prophesy over me saying "the Lord says you should do this or you should do that" and it was opposite what the Lord told me in my private times with Him. Then the persons would get upset and claim me rebellios because I chose to go the way "I" heard Him.

It's very frustrating to have others point at you and say "you did this, you did that, you think this, your heart is that" spewing out words they say are from God yet you know they are'nt because God has never spoke to me in the manner that person is. Yet, being a sensitive person as well, I sometime say, "are they right God? Am I being rebellious? Am I going to hell because I'm not accepting their prophetic word as from you?"

Sometimes we can just be so hurtful to each other...and we do it proclaiming that we are His voice and His hand. Thats all I'm wanting to point out.

Each of us has a different story of how God has directed our lives to where it is today. We've all depended on the same Word, the same God. Yet we've arrived at different stages, at different times, and in different ways. We all have things to share. Some of us are not where we should be yet as we keep our eyes on Him we can trust that He will guide us and He will be faithful to finish what He started in us and make sure that we do indeed end up in the right place. He is so faithful.

We are each a different puzzle piece of the picture that God is making. If we could all just be more patient and kind with each other maybe all the bickering and fighting could stop. Maybe, maybe not.

Excellant post . Yes , it is difficult to tell someone that you know that the Lord is telling you something different than what *they* say the Lord is telling them to tell you . You can be called rebellious and unsubmissive . *They* can hear the Lord for you so much more than you can for you - not .

People are always preaching to find out what the Lord has for you but are also the ones to tell you that you got it wrong because it doesn't fit their own agenda/doctrines .

I do appreciate the way that He teaches me different things at different times - a teaching plan made specifically for the individual as is best for them .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Quaffer, I have been prophacied over so many times, its really a dread for me to see them coming. My quiet times with the Lord leads me in the directions I'm going.. I'm not saying that prophacy that edifies and builds you up is wrong, this is the good kind, but I have been told so many things that just are not true.
Another thing, stopping all the clamour is a good thing..it is "God what are you saying to me." I think I have have two prophacies over me, that was true, and they we're variifed by at least two others that did not know each other.

I agree . I don't like prophecies for me , either . I want the Lord to tell me personally . But , I understand that it gives some people a sense of usefulness . I am concerned for those that actually crave prophesies .

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Why do i get this feeling im being watched

ANd someone is looking over my shoulder ?? :o

Or following my tracks and footsteps

That's the spirit of Carrol Shelby--you failed to mention him in your list of greats!

*It's OK, though--he's going to be at coffee with us--I just haven't invited him yet!

 

[New_Wineskin]

Wow this sounds like my brothers and my conversation. I have a really hard time with prophecy. Too many agenda's with it. When I get a true prophecy, usually the person giving it don't even know they are doing it and it usually don't come in the vehicle I thought God was going to use at the pulpit, though there are times it has and it shocked me too.

Those are the best kind ... you are in a regular conversation with someone and they say something that is not particularily deep or special but the Lord speaks incredibly loud and clear through it . ( even through nonbelievers ) .

 

[JimfromOhio]

Scriptures stated:
Despise not prophesying. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thess. 5:20-21)

No prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:21)

Love never ends; as for prophesies, they will pass away. (1 Corinth. 13:8)

Prophecy is the ability to publicly proclaim God’s truth accurately and authoritatively. Prophecy is to instruct and edifies believers (see 1 Cor. 14:3-4).

Prophet Isaiah made a wonderful point in Isaiah 8:20, “To the law and to the testimony ! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.”

Prophecy has two aspects: revelation and reiteration. Many of the New Testament books were verified (reiteration meaning repeats) of Old Testament truths. Today’s prophecies must be verified by New Testament truths. In 1 Corinthians 14:32, all preaching, prophecies and teaching today is reiteration (repetition). Ephesians 4:15 says that you must speak the truth and 1 Corin. 13:2 says you must have love before prophecy. Ask God to help your words, so that everything you say will be clothed with His love. Test and prove all prophecies through the scriptures and ask God for guidance. Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."--Matt. 26:41.

In my Christian life in the past 40 some years, I used scriptures and my circumstances to direct my paths. Christ is within me, I must listen to His Word and walk in His steps (2 Corinthians 4:10). With Christ inside me, God has granted me the ability to understand the truth and live accordingly (1 John 1:5-6). If I wish to know the will of God on a subject, I must search the Holy Scriptures. This is the only source of sacred information relative to things spiritual (see 2 Tim. 3:16-17). Scriptures says that we (Christians) are accountable for what we believe. (John 3:18) In 1 Corinthians 2:6, “but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world....” made me think. Wisdom by definition means quality of being wise; power of judging rightly and following the soundest course of action, based on knowledge, experience and understanding.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Scriptures stated:
Despise not prophesying. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thess. 5:20-21)

No prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:21)

Love never ends; as for prophesies, they will pass away. (1 Corinth. 13:8)

Prophecy is the ability to publicly proclaim God’s truth accurately and authoritatively. Prophecy is to instruct and edifies believers (see 1 Cor. 14:3-4).

Prophet Isaiah made a wonderful point in Isaiah 8:20, “To the law and to the testimony ! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.”

Prophecy has two aspects: revelation and reiteration. Many of the New Testament books were verified (reiteration meaning repeats) of Old Testament truths. Today’s prophecies must be verified by New Testament truths. In 1 Corinthians 14:32, all preaching, prophecies and teaching today is reiteration (repetition). Ephesians 4:15 says that you must speak the truth and 1 Corin. 13:2 says you must have love before prophecy. Ask God to help your words, so that everything you say will be clothed with His love. Test and prove all prophecies through the scriptures and ask God for guidance. Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."--Matt. 26:41.

In my Christian life in the past 40 some years, I used scriptures and my circumstances to direct my paths. Christ is within me, I must listen to His Word and walk in His steps (2 Corinthians 4:10). With Christ inside me, God has granted me the ability to understand the truth and live accordingly (1 John 1:5-6). If I wish to know the will of God on a subject, I must search the Holy Scriptures. This is the only source of sacred information relative to things spiritual (see 2 Tim. 3:16-17). Scriptures says that we (Christians) are accountable for what we believe. (John 3:18) In 1 Corinthians 2:6, “but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world....” made me think. Wisdom by definition means quality of being wise; power of judging rightly and following the soundest course of action, based on knowledge, experience and understanding.

Do you think that it can be dangerous to all circumstance to influence the direction of your life? Granted, sometimes we have no choice, but I'm talking about, say, giving too much attention to those things some call "coincidences".

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Do you think that it can be dangerous to all circumstance to influence the direction of your life? Granted, sometimes we have no choice, but I'm talking about, say, giving too much attention to those things some call "coincidences".

I think it's dangerous to depend upon circustance, however, scripture does say "the steps of the righteous are ORDERED of the Lord". I believe that if we keep our eyes on Him we don't need to stress over where we are going.