Truth pollution

[Johnny Be Good]

According to the word, we don't have the right to judge the servant of another. Other people are not our servants, they are God's. We don't have the right to lift ourselves up by putting others down. We don't have the right to say "I am holy and you are not".

Yes, we need to get our eyes on Jesus. If we're looking at Him while we may notice the failures of those around us, we would also notice Him reaching down to those who fall in order to lift them up. If we're looking at Him we certaintly will not be pointing at ourseves in smugness declairing how holy we are and how unholy they are.

If you are inferring that I am judging the servant, that's not the way I look at this--and you have completely missed the point of this thread. The folks I'm talking about have already taken a stand on the side of untruth--and propagate it at every turn. Again, the issue here is not an opinion-oriented determination that I make. The truth is the truth--and if you're on the side of untruth, you're going to be seen there when someone flips on the light! They have made their statements in the dark. When I write what I write (TRUTH) about their actions, the light itself shows that they are in error. God intends that His Truth be made known--it is our commission. Jesus is the truth and the light.

The good news is that we CAN believe that Jesus has healed us--because He is Lord--that is the TRUTH! My heart reads God's intent throughout His written Word. And it is utter lunacy to say that we should not use the Word (Jesus) to share Jesus (the Word)! Arguing for NOT sharing Jesus when you intend to share Jesus is propagating evil, disguised as wise council!

We are to walk in FAITH--and FAITH is not understood with the brain. Acting upon only what we understand with the brain is not FAITH--and this is the untruth that is being propagated!

I've actually seen others here lose faith and give up on believing for the healing that Jesus purchased for us through incredible, inconceiveable pain and agony, at the words of habitual, purposeful, selfish polluters! *I do not think it is haterid that I have for these folks--it's not a personal thing.

Do not be led astray FROM THE TRUTH.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Huh?

You lost me. I honestly can't see who you've judged to be in the wrong here because I'm always careful to judge myself by criteria I see used--and use myself.

That's good that you can't see it 'cause I have not aimed it at anyone in particular. It's just a general observation that seems to be in-between the lines of a lot that we zealous Penticostals write.

You see, even though I obviously have a burning zeal to ensure that others do not purposely, selfishly misrepresent the Charactor of God (solely, in pride, to lead others in the direction the are going to satisfy their own ego), I am also always in the self-analyzation mode too. Maybe I should just sit down and shut up about this. Who am I to try to stop others from leaving the narrow way? Am I my brothers' keeper?! For me, this is a never-ending struggle--should I or shouldn't I say something?

I'm not saying anyone should shut up and yes I believe we are our brothers keeper. However, I think we walk a very narrow rope when we say someone is "purposely, selfishly misrepresenting the Characer of God (solely in pride to lead others in the direction they are going to satisfy their own ego". Only God can look into a persons heart and know such things. We can speculate according to what we think they believe but we cannot know for sure. We don't even fully know our own hearts, how can we possibly claim to know the heart of others?

I desire to remove the stumbling block from the narrow path to ensure others are not tripped up and led astray. I DO believe that being angry--and sinning not--is the balance to achieve. I DO aim not to make things personal--and I DO pray for those I see pumping pollution into the atmosphere. Actually, right after I ask God to reveal Himself to them in Truth, I always ask that He do the same for ME!

I too desire to remove the stumbling block, however, am I becoming one if I demonstrate (not saying that you are) anything less than love toward those I think are being a stumbling block?

You see, I've actually seen others here lose faith and give up on believing for the healing that Jesus purchased for us through incredible, inconceiveable pain and agony, at the words of habitual, purposeful, selfish polluters! *I do not think it is haterid that I have for these folks--it's not a personal thing.

I understand totally Johnny and I pray for all involved. As the Lord leads I PM people privately or I'm just as honest as I can be here. I too struggle with a lot things but I've also overcome many...and most of it did not come without the struggle first.

I ask you: How do we share the Good News without pointing out that Jesus IS the Good News, for example?!

I'm not sure I understand this question....you don't have to not share that Jesus is the Good News.

What should be done when one sees a person struggling, on the ege of faith in believing that they WERE healed and ARE whole, and then someone tells them that they're only heading for disaster and pain if they step out into FAITH: THE PLACE WHERE OUR MINDS CANNOT SUPPORT US--and they lose heart to instead possess their tangeable brokeness; founded upon the understanding of their brains, as OPPOSED to their hearts? *FAITH is understanding with our hearts, NOT our brains!

Am I my brothers' keeper?

I can't answer this one. It breaks my heart too. But yelling at the ones I disagree with does not seem to work either.

I disagree on the brains issue...yes we can think too much but God tells us to renew our minds. He tells us we don't think the same things He does. So the key seems to be that by my mind being renewed that I will think more like Him. He does not tell me to lay my brains to the side, He says to renew them.

Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word. When Phillip came upon the unich, he asked, "do you UNDERSTAND what you are reading?" For "ME", it was the opposite of what you said. I could not step out in faith, until I understood what exactly it was the Word said. To me I was stepping out not because I understood God's word to tell me to but because others were telling me I should. I had no understanding. But once I understood, with my brain, then I could take that step in faith and I had manifestation of that healing. With you it may be different, but it's not the same for everyone as it is with you.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

I'm not saying anyone should shut up and yes I believe we are our brothers keeper. However, I think we walk a very narrow rope when we say someone is "purposely, selfishly misrepresenting the Characer of God (solely in pride to lead others in the direction they are going to satisfy their own ego". Only God can look into a persons heart and know such things. We can speculate according to what we think they believe but we cannot know for sure. We don't even fully know our own hearts, how can we possibly claim to know the heart of others?

Excellent question. What would you say if I showed you written proof that one of these folks know, understand, and agree that stating their opinion causes others to lose faith? I do not have the link with me but I will post in later this evening when I get home.

I too desire to remove the stumbling block, however, am I becoming one if I demonstrate (not saying that you are) anything less than love toward those I think are being a stumbling block?

The problem with that stance is that anything that ruffles feathers is considered 'not showing love'. But that is simply not true. Would you say that Jesus ruffled a few feathers while He was here or that the 'love' He showed was never confrontational?

I understand totally Johnny and I pray for all involved. As the Lord leads I PM people privately or I'm just as honest as I can be here. I too struggle with a lot things but I've also overcome many...and most of it did not come without the struggle first.

That's awesome--obedience without satisfying the pride and ego!!

I'm not sure I understand this question....you don't have to not share that Jesus is the Good News.

'Jesus' and the 'Word' are one--He is the Word made flesh. They are the same. If I choose a plan (TO use scripture, TO NOT use scripture, or even TO USE WHATEVER I WANT to use), I do not necessarily share what God would have me share, when He'd have me share it. It's good to have a plan--in fact, I think God would obviously have us formulate sound outlines for the tasks we perform, but we should always be led by the Spirit! The folks I'm talking about completely omit the Holy Spirit from their plan--and when I point this out, the the response doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit at all!

I can't answer this one. It breaks my heart too. But yelling at the ones I disagree with does not seem to work either.

I'm not yelling AT anyone--I'm simply shedding the light upon untruth. If this is taken personally by anyone, there just might be another reason for it--other than that I may or may not have directed at THEIR perticular ACTIONS.

I disagree on the brains issue...yes we can think too much but God tells us to renew our minds. He tells us we don't think the same things He does. So the key seems to be that by my mind being renewed that I will think more like Him. He does not tell me to lay my brains to the side, He says to renew them.

I have to say that I completely disagree here. We're talking apples and oranges. Renewing our minds does not have anything to do with understanding with our hearts. Now, THAT is profound--thank you, Holy Spirit.

Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word. When Phillip came upon the unich, he asked, "do you UNDERSTAND what you are reading?" For "ME", it was the opposite of what you said. I could not step out in faith, until I understood what exactly it was the Word said. To me I was stepping out not because I understood God's word to tell me to but because others were telling me I should. I had no understanding. But once I understood, with my brain, then I could take that step in faith and I had manifestation of that healing. With you it may be different, but it's not the same for everyone as it is with you.

Hmmm--did the unich understand with his heart?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the action you describe as 'faith' is not faith at all. What you did was take action based upon your brain's understanding. I'm not saying that that is bad at all, by the way--just that what you describe is not faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things unseen, as you know. You acted upon reason. Faith is believing with our heart when our brains don't get it.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I just caught a polluter reading this post. What a great tool for God these folks would be if they would only step out in faith instead of making choices in clear opposition to God's Word.

Let's pray for repentance. Wouldn't it be great to see a refreshing occur--to see God use these folks to spread the good news in agreement with God's Word?!

I don't know who you are referring to as a "polluter" and I don’t know what you mean about “Truth Pollution”. There are people like me who simply want to point out issues to make people aware why there are doctrine (teachings) differences in this forum.

Regarding False Teachings
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

It appears that we are where and when the Bible talk about we are in the end of times when there are many false teachings out in the world. Scriptures tells us to watch for false teachings that are WITHIN our faith including Christian Forums. However, there are false doctrines being told within Christian Forum members who are within our faith and using Christianity to lead us from the truth. That is where the most dangerous teachings come from. There are Christians who are willing to compromise sound doctrine for the sake of self-centered interests. You just have to know what you believe in. If you don't believe correctly, your actions are worthless. There are people want to believe something so badly that they will reject the revealed truth of the Scriptures.

Regarding Legalism
To the very religious biblical experts of His day Jesus said, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered" ( Luke 11:52). Religionists take away "the key of knowledge" by distracting people from the Word of God and from a "right attention of heart" by the unnecessary additions of denominationally correct traditions and expectations.

As Christians, we saved by grace and should discern freely to choose what we know spiritually is best for each of us. Do not judge those who chose the opposite of your views unless the Bible CLEARLY spells out what we can do and not do. We don't want to be a legalistic about our Christian daily life at the same time we don't want to abuse our Christian liberty. Christian Legalism cannot change a heart, it tries to control people with laws and expectations that are not even kept by the religionists who interpret and apply the rules. God give us Grace to give a sense of direction when we feel lost, to allow him to receive the glory without robbing us of our dignity. God do not want us to be "religious" nor He want us put legalism (law) over Grace. God wants us to be the person that Christ is in us. I am an ambassador of Jesus Christ. Christ is my life and I am an integral part of what Jesus is accomplishing in this world (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:19-22).

Doctrine Example: Regarding Healing
Scripturally, our spiritual knowledge must be balanced. The denominational representation regarding faith healing and among the leaders is very diverse; it is a very inter-denominational movement. The emphasis is physical restoration and transformation more than salvation itself. The aims and objectives of healing are pragmatic. Cures of ailments are the primary purpose rather than the actual Gospel and true ministries of the Church.

Conclusion
By grace He brings them into the family of God and starts the process of transforming them into the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:28,29). The Biblical process of solving personality and behavioral problems begins with God's Word revealing our hearts (James 1:21-25, Heb. 4:12). At that point we can then go to the real Christ for grace, mercy and help (Heb. 4:13-16). Then as the real Holy Spirit ministers in our lives through the Word of God, we will grow in abundant life and godliness (II Pet. 1:3) and become adequate for every good work (II Tim. 3:16,17). Read Romans Chapters 12, 13, 14 and 15 and Book of Galatians because they teach believers to have a real relationship with God. You can enjoy living a Christian life without being a legalist. Have a relationship with Jesus Christ, your Lord and Savior. Faith and Grace are a wonderful combination in our daily relationship with our Lord and Savior.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

I don't know who you are referring to as a "polluter" and I don’t know what you mean about “Truth Pollution”. There are people like me who simply want to point out issues to make people aware why there are doctrine (teachings) differences in this forum.

Regarding False Teachings
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

It appears that we are where and when the Bible talk about we are in the end of times when there are many false teachings out in the world. Scriptures tells us to watch for false teachings that are WITHIN our faith including Christian Forums. However, there are false doctrines being told within Christian Forum members who are within our faith and using Christianity to lead us from the truth. That is where the most dangerous teachings come from. There are Christians who are willing to compromise sound doctrine for the sake of self-centered interests. You just have to know what you believe in. If you don't believe correctly, your actions are worthless. There are people want to believe something so badly that they will reject the revealed truth of the Scriptures.

Regarding Legalism
To the very religious biblical experts of His day Jesus said, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered" ( Luke 11:52). Religionists take away "the key of knowledge" by distracting people from the Word of God and from a "right attention of heart" by the unnecessary additions of denominationally correct traditions and expectations.

As Christians, we saved by grace and should discern freely to choose what we know spiritually is best for each of us. Do not judge those who chose the opposite of your views unless the Bible CLEARLY spells out what we can do and not do. We don't want to be a legalistic about our Christian daily life at the same time we don't want to abuse our Christian liberty. Christian Legalism cannot change a heart, it tries to control people with laws and expectations that are not even kept by the religionists who interpret and apply the rules. God give us Grace to give a sense of direction when we feel lost, to allow him to receive the glory without robbing us of our dignity. God do not want us to be "religious" nor He want us put legalism (law) over Grace. God wants us to be the person that Christ is in us. I am an ambassador of Jesus Christ. Christ is my life and I am an integral part of what Jesus is accomplishing in this world (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:19-22).

Doctrine Example: Regarding Healing
Scripturally, our spiritual knowledge must be balanced. The denominational representation regarding faith healing and among the leaders is very diverse; it is a very inter-denominational movement. The emphasis is physical restoration and transformation more than salvation itself. The aims and objectives of healing are pragmatic. Cures of ailments are the primary purpose rather than the actual Gospel and true ministries of the Church.

Wow--that's good stuff!! I have a comment about your healing assumption: it is an assumption to state, "The emphasis is physical restoration and transformation more than salvation itself...Cures of ailments are the primary purpose rather than the actual Gospel and true ministries of the Church."

This is a general statement and describes actions taken by folks to get from God--as opposed to the truth. Because we already have healing, we have no need to get it from God--it's already ours. The purpose of some 'healing' ministries out there are really out there, I agree! This very issue--and the truth of what I've just written here--is the very reason we should strain to ensure that truth--pure, unadulterated TRUTH--from the Word of God is proclaimed.

We don't have to understand it with our heads--but we DO have to understand it with our hearts!

Conclusion

By grace He brings them into the family of God and starts the process of transforming them into the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:28,29). The Biblical process of solving personality and behavioral problems begins with God's Word revealing our hearts (James 1:21-25, Heb. 4:12). At that point we can then go to the real Christ for grace, mercy and help (Heb. 4:13-16). Then as the real Holy Spirit ministers in our lives through the Word of God, we will grow in abundant life and godliness (II Pet. 1:3) and become adequate for every good work (II Tim. 3:16,17). Read Romans Chapters 12, 13, 14 and 15 and Book of Galatians because they teach believers to have a real relationship with God. You can enjoy living a Christian life without being a legalist. Have a relationship with Jesus Christ, your Lord and Savior. Faith and Grace are a wonderful combination in our daily relationship with our Lord and Savior.

Well put, sir.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Wow--that's good stuff!! I have a comment about your healing assumption: it is an assumption to state, "The emphasis is physical restoration and transformation more than salvation itself...Cures of ailments are the primary purpose rather than the actual Gospel and true ministries of the Church."

This is a general statement and describes actions taken by folks to get from God--as opposed to the truth. Because we already have healing, we have no need to get it from God--it's already ours. The purpose of some 'healing' ministries out there are really out there, I agree! This very issue--and the truth of what I've just written here--is the very reason we should strain to ensure that truth--pure, unadulterated TRUTH--from the Word of God is proclaimed.

We don't have to understand it with our heads--but we DO have to understand it with our hearts!



Well put, sir.

Thanks !

About healing. I believe in healing but I won't put "healing" in one of my list of spiritual agenda. Physical healing is not a priority of mine and at the same time, healing is very true today in God's will. As a result of the crucifixion, however, the physical mankind are still subject to satanic invasion. By being spiritually reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, a fallen person can be restored as a spiritual child, and can ultimately come himself to resemble Jesus. Our primary goal is salvation and then our next goal is to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior. We must submit to God's Will and just do what He wanted us to do, is to spread the gospel so sinner can be healed spiritually.

Physical healing does happen and will happen. But God is not guaranteeing that He will heal all believers. He will heal whenever He chooses. He has his reasons not to heal. As a human being, I want to be healed and I will be healed. When I will be healed? Either when I am here on earth or when I am in heaven. I will trust God's decision.

My spiritual priority is on the "Gospel" only. The rest such as healing will come after salvation to each individual believer.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Thanks !

About healing. I believe in healing but I won't put "healing" in one of my list of spiritual agenda. Physical healing is not a priority of mine and at the same time, healing is very true today in God's will. As a result of the crucifixion, however, the physical mankind are still subject to satanic invasion. By being spiritually reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, a fallen person can be restored as a spiritual child, and can ultimately come himself to resemble Jesus. Our primary goal is salvation and then our next goal is to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior. We must submit to God's Will and just do what He wanted us to do, is to spread the gospel so sinner can be healed spiritually.

Physical healing does happen and will happen. But God is not guaranteeing that He will heal all believers. He will heal whenever He chooses. He has his reasons not to heal. As a human being, I want to be healed and I will be healed. When I will be healed? Either when I am here on earth or when I am in heaven. I will trust God's decision.

My spiritual priority is on the "Gospel" only. The rest such as healing will come after salvation to each individual believer.

Wow--you just exhibited why it's so important to state absolute truth from God's written Word--whether we understand it, or are able to believe it, with out brains. What you've just written is your take on healing--and it's based upon what you've heard and read. But it's not based upon what the Word says. What the Word says requires FAITH. Believe with your HEART.

Healing will become a priority to you, bro. No doubt about it. When it does, read the Word--don't accept less from God than what He did for us in person--and choose to stand on FAITH (as opposed to reason)--EVEN IF IT'S NOT WHAT YOU SEE. Even the FAITH of a child. And do it all with your eyes on Him. *It's much easier to get started keeping your eyes on Him when you're well than when you're distracted by an infirmity!

What is the connection between circumstance and Truth?

 

[JimfromOhio]

What is the connection between circumstance and Truth?

My thoughts about "circumstances and truth." They go together for every each Christian believer. Many years ago, I was studying to become a pastor-teacher however circumstances have directed me to different paths. I don’t know what God wants me to do. I do know this: God control my circumstances even though my circumstances can be influenced by my own sins and/or by Satan. I am required to take joy over my circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18) and I understood that. I am aware that God's knowledge of me is very complete. He sees and knows my heart completely. He knows my desires, my goals, and my hopes. God accepts me as I am, with warts and all. God is directing my paths and right now at 46 years old, I still don't know what God want me to do. I do know this, His purpose is to make us more like Christ. With Christ inside me, God has granted me the ability to understand the truth and live accordingly (1 John 1:5-6).

Romans 8:28-29
"And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters.

Christian who have faith understand the reality of their lives. Faith in God allows us to go as far as we can while trusting in God's grace to overcome the difficulties we face. God is asking us to stay strong in faith, keep at it, to carry on, to stick with it, as we trust in HIS possibilities. My life as a Christian takes work and requires the commitment of my heart, mind and body.

"I know what it is to have little, and I know what it is to have plenty. In any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of being well-fed and of going hungry, of having plenty and of being in need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." (Philippians 4:12-13)

 

[Johnny Be Good]

What I was getting at was that when God's Word says one thing, yet we see with our eyes something entirely different, God's Word is true--not the circumstances. Healing is a perfect example of this phaenomenon. Stated differently, Truth and fact aren't necessarily related at all. Circumstances do not dictate Truth--and neither does fact.

Faith fills the gap between fact and Truth, as it does when circumstances distort God's Word. Here's an example: Did Jesus walk on water? Fact is, a man can't walk on water, yet, not only do we, as Christians, claim to believe this, we have an inner knowing that confirms it. In our hearts, we know Jesus walked on water.

Faith fills the gap.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Excellent question. What would you say if I showed you written proof that one of these folks know, understand, and agree that stating their opinion causes others to lose faith? I do not have the link with me but I will post in later this evening when I get home.

You may PM it to me. I'd prefer that you not post someones post and announce that they are a polluter.

The problem with that stance is that anything that ruffles feathers is considered 'not showing love'. But that is simply not true. Would you say that Jesus ruffled a few feathers while He was here or that the 'love' He showed was never confrontational?

Well now, I am quite confrontational yet most of the time I find a way to do it without calling the person something other that what God calls them. One's words may be polluted but calling that person a polluter is only speaking death over them...and those of course would be pollutions coming out of your mouth. I'm sure you would disagree vehemently if someone called you a polluter over that.

The folks I'm talking about completely omit the Holy Spirit from their plan--and when I point this out, the the response doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit at all!

You don't know that! You are assuming it 'cause they do not feel the need to say "thus sayeth the Lord" everytime they speak.

I'm not yelling AT anyone--I'm simply shedding the light upon untruth. If this is taken personally by anyone, there just might be another reason for it--other than that I may or may not have directed at THEIR perticular ACTIONS.

True....and did you take my first post personally?

I have to say that I completely disagree here. We're talking apples and oranges. Renewing our minds does not have anything to do with understanding with our hearts. Now, THAT is profound--thank you, Holy Spirit.

Well then we completely disagree. God is the One who initiated the "come let us reason". And exactly where is the heart Johnny? Surely you don't believe it's in that piece of mussle in the center of your chest?

When my mind is renewed I think more like Him...maybe you don't, but I do. This kinda reminds me of the factory I use to work in. We had some machine that we ran the leather through and there was a woman that was working on it one day. She kept looking into this little glass area as she worked. Finely I asked her what it was she was looking at. She said, "I don't know, but everyone who works on this machine does it". She was acting on faith that she was supposed to see something but she had no idea what or when or even if she'd know it when she saw it.

God gave us a brain Johnny. Nowhere in scripture are we told to lay it aside. Of course if you can point me to the scripture that does I will certaintly change my opinion.

Hmmm--did the unich understand with his heart?

Since scripture does not seem to differentiate between the two, it does not matter. He understood and he was able to act on what he understood.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the action you describe as 'faith' is not faith at all. What you did was take action based upon your brain's understanding. I'm not saying that that is bad at all, by the way--just that what you describe is not faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things unseen, as you know. You acted upon reason. Faith is believing with our heart when our brains don't get it.

Again I completely disagree. As much as I tried to just "leap" my healing did not come until I understood and then I leaped.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Johnny,

I have seen people do what you have said and everything works hunky dory and I've seen others, like myself who did everything I was told and none of it worked...for whatever reason, it does not matter.

People with great faith who are always healed gave me scripture that was especially for "my issue" and I quoted it over and over as I continued to issue and the issue never stopped. Finely I said to God, "God, this scripture makes no sense to me in regards to my issue. Sure it's about blood but it has nothing to do with my blood. YOU give me a scripture that is mine. And God did (emagine that). He gave me a scripture that some of those with such great faith told me was not right but I claimed it anyway. I even had a total stranger just about quote it to me in a conversation about my issue. That's when I began to see changes. It's different for each of us Johnny. Just 'cause you're able to jump in the lake and immediately swim does not mean everyone else will. Some may flounder and eventually swim but others will drown. In my lifetime I've seen all three...and the one's that drowned, it was mostly because there was someone on the side insinuating (not you) they were trying to think too much and so forth and so on. They gave up out of frustration and I was almost one of them.

Please don't get me wrong. I do believe in leaping but if someone wants to understand then we who have a bit more understanding can help instead of just telling them to lay their brains aside.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

You may PM it to me. I'd prefer that you not post someones post and announce that they are a polluter.

I've already sent the link to a Mod who didn't even bother to reply. I'd rather broadcast it--that way I'm not hiding the light under a basket. I didn't post his words--he did. But if you think it's best, I won't post it.

Well now, I am quite confrontational yet most of the time I find a way to do it without calling the person something other that what God calls them. One's words may be polluted but calling that person a polluter is only speaking death over them...and those of course would be pollutions coming out of your mouth. I'm sure you would disagree vehemently if someone called you a polluter over that.

Good point. I agree vehemently. Just how do I teach, rebuke, correct and train without...you know...speaking the truth, though?! You're right, though--diplomacy is where it's at. Hey--if I'm not using a lotta butter {love}, folks will just keep on disagreeing with me anyway, right?!

You don't know that! You are assuming it 'cause they do not feel the need to say "thus sayeth the Lord" everytime they speak.

No, I mean, "The folks I'm talking about completely omit the Holy Spirit from their plan (the plan that they stated in their post!)--and when I point this out, the the response doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit at all! --and I know this because I can read. So, I DO know that!

True....and did you take my first post personally?

Yes--I told you--I try to take everything personally--for my own good.

Well then we completely disagree. God is the One who initiated the "come let us reason". And exactly where is the heart Johnny? Surely you don't believe it's in that piece of mussle in the center of your chest?

Are you saying that our heart (not the physical muscle) is in our heads?! Hey--no need to get rude here! I musta struck a nerve again...sorry.

I'M the one who just said that I thought God would have us be just as organized as we can when we go to execute a mission! Did you miss that part?

Again, the basic principle is that when your brain can verify a truth, well, there's not much need for Faith like a child, huh. When our brains can't verify truth, yet God's Word says that such and such is so, it takes the Faith of a child--even Faith as small as a mustard seed--to stand upon the Word (especially when it's in opposition to facts and circumstances!!!).

Did Jesus walk on water?

Come, let us reason together what Faith is. What does the Word say Faith is? Let's settle on the Word's definition.

When my mind is renewed I think more like Him...maybe you don't, but I do. This kinda reminds me of the factory I use to work in. We had some machine that we ran the leather through and there was a woman that was working on it one day. She kept looking into this little glass area as she worked. Finely I asked her what it was she was looking at. She said, "I don't know, but everyone who works on this machine does it". She was acting on faith that she was supposed to see something but she had no idea what or when or even if she'd know it when she saw it.

What are you saying that the woman was displaying? I'd call it stupidity.

God gave us a brain Johnny. Nowhere in scripture are we told to lay it aside. Of course if you can point me to the scripture that does I will certaintly change my opinion.

I just said that I thought God would have us be just as organized as we possibly can when we go out to execute a mission!

Since scripture does not seem to differentiate between the two, it does not matter. He understood and he was able to act on what he understood.

Are you sure it doesn't matter? This may be the key to a deeper understanding...an understanding of the heart!

Again I completely disagree. As much as I tried to just "leap" my healing did not come until I understood and then I leaped.

Did you understand with your heart--or your head--or both?

I want you to know that I am NOT attempting to be confrontational. We simply have a difference of opinion here. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong, does it?

I think your hint at diplomacy is well placed. Thank you very much for putting it that way--it makes a lot of sense now--and, if I keep your words in mind, maybe I'll be better able to judge whether I'll be putting someone off with the Truth as I see it. I apologize if I've hurt your feelings--truly.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Johnny,

I have seen people do what you have said and everything works hunky dory and I've seen others, like myself who did everything I was told and none of it worked...for whatever reason, it does not matter.

People with great faith who are always healed gave me scripture that was especially for "my issue" and I quoted it over and over as I continued to issue and the issue never stopped. Finely I said to God, "God, this scripture makes no sense to me in regards to my issue. Sure it's about blood but it has nothing to do with my blood. YOU give me a scripture that is mine. And God did (emagine that). He gave me a scripture that some of those with such great faith told me was not right but I claimed it anyway. I even had a total stranger just about quote it to me in a conversation about my issue. That's when I began to see changes. It's different for each of us Johnny. Just 'cause you're able to jump in the lake and immediately swim does not mean everyone else will. Some may flounder and eventually swim but others will drown. In my lifetime I've seen all three...and the one's that drowned, it was mostly because there was someone on the side insinuating (not you) they were trying to think too much and so forth and so on. They gave up out of frustration and I was almost one of them.

Please don't get me wrong. I do believe in leaping but if someone wants to understand then we who have a bit more understanding can help instead of just telling them to lay their brains aside.

Seriously, I empathise with your words here. Really. I never said I was a giant or anything. Whether I walk in victory over the issues which require healing in my life or not HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH whether God's Word is true! That's powerful. That's POWERFUL TRUTH right there.

...I just hope it's not truth that I have the brain/intelligence of a child!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I've already sent the link to a Mod who didn't even bother to reply. I'd rather broadcast it--that way I'm not hiding the light under a basket. I didn't post his words--he did. But if you think it's best, I won't post it.

Good point. I agree vehemently. Just how do I teach, rebuke, correct and train without...you know...speaking the truth, though?! You're right, though--diplomacy is where it's at. Hey--if I'm not using a lotta butter {love}, folks will just keep on disagreeing with me anyway, right?!

No, I mean, "The folks I'm talking about completely omit the Holy Spirit from their plan (the plan that they stated in their post!)--and when I point this out, the the response doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit at all! --and I know this because I can read. So, I DO know that!

Yes--I told you--I try to take everything personally--for my own good.

Are you saying that our heart (not the physical muscle) is in our heads?! Hey--no need to get rude here! I musta struck a nerve again...sorry.

I'M the one who just said that I thought God would have us be just as organized as we can when we go to execute a mission! Did you miss that part?

Again, the basic principle is that when your brain can verify a truth, well, there's not much need for Faith like a child, huh. When our brains can't verify truth, yet God's Word says that such and such is so, it takes the Faith of a child--even Faith as small as a mustard seed--to stand upon the Word (especially when it's in opposition to facts and circumstances!!!).

Did Jesus walk on water?

Come, let us reason together what Faith is. What does the Word say Faith is? Let's settle on the Word's definition.

What are you saying that the woman was displaying? I'd call it stupidity.

I just said that I thought God would have us be just as organized as we possibly can when we go out to execute a mission!

Are you sure it doesn't matter? This may be the key to a deeper understanding...an understanding of the heart!

Did you understand with your heart--or your head--or both?

I want you to know that I am NOT attempting to be confrontational. We simply have a difference of opinion here. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong, does it?

I think your hint at diplomacy is well placed. Thank you very much for putting it that way--it makes a lot of sense now--and, if I keep your words in mind, maybe I'll be better able to judge whether I'll be putting someone off with the Truth as I see it. I apologize if I've hurt your feelings--truly.

My feelings are not hurt at all. I think though that where we may be missing each other is what we're pointing at as understanding in the head. LOL

I'm talking in circles I think.

Anyway, I totally agree that God's word is true whether it makes sense to us or not. . .however, I at least have to understand WHAT His word says and/or is NOT saying.

Such as scripture as far as I know does NOT tell me to lay my reasoning aside. It does tell me that God will supply all my needs and so based on that scripture, I can know that no matter what the circumstances look like God WILL supply my needs. His supply may come differently than I expect but none the less will be His supply. personally find it difficult to leap in faith if I don't understand that scripture tells me I'm to make that leap in regards to whatever the issue is. I'm not trying to make Gods faithfulness to His word logical in my head I'm trying to.

I think that frequently we spout scripture off and people have no clue what the heck we are talking about. To some it's like we're talking another language. They hear "j[efujewoiu]wi jprjpejoi lkj 'ekfj'ipj[ewj p and just have faith" And then we put them down because they can't leap...they have no clue what they've just been told. I've been a believer since I was a small child and I'm 51 now.

When I went through the physical struggle I had a few years ago it was an ordeal. I was trying hard to grasp what my WOF Pastors were telling me but some of the scripture used just did not in my mind say what they said it said. Should I just believe because they say or because I've truly understood that God said? I would ask questions only to be sluffed off as "not having enough faith". They would get upset 'cause they perceived my questions as challenging and questioning them and their authority. Many a time I heard the exprestion, if you would just stop trying to think and just do it. The thing was I did not understand what the "do" was.

I persisted though, 'cause I wanted my healing to manifest and finely the light came on and I understood what Gods word said, then I could leap. Leaping before that point would only have made me just like that woman I worked with.

God's word never changes. But how each person understands it is different from one person to the other. We are called to be patient with one another. Each of has things we can learn from the other. Each of us has learned some of the same lessons but we learned them in different ways. We just need to be patient.

You and I...I don't think we really disagree all that much. We're just coming at it from different angles.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[cygnusx1]

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Seriously, I empathise with your words here. Really. I never said I was a giant or anything. Whether I walk in victory over the issues which require healing in my life or not HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH whether God's Word is true! That's powerful. That's POWERFUL TRUTH right there.

I agree whole heartedly! Thats exactly what I had to conclude. Because God's word says "by His stripes I am/was (2 diff verses) I was healed whether it manifested or not. I believe that. God's word is true...period.

...I just hope it's not truth that I have the brain/intelligence of a child!

I think we all are struggling somewhere. We're told to have the faith of a child. The parent says they're going to get me a bike, gosh darn it I'm telling all my friends I'm gettin' a bike. God's word tells me I am healed, I'm healed. God's word tells me I'm provided for, I'm provided for. Period!

You have a lot of good stuff to say Johnny. I hope I did not discourage you any. Love ya brother

 

[New_Wineskin]

Those who do these things wind up purposely leading others off the narrow road toward agreement with their faulty reasoning and polluted truth.

Do you think God is OK with this kind of thing going on unchecked? What is the answer? What should we do when we encounter the seemingly plausible reasoning of these folks? What would God have us do when we encounter these habitual polluters? Should we shut up and be nice? Should we allow our siblings in Christ be led astray through deception? What does the Word say?

What does the Word say?

I don't know what Jesus is saying to you . However , Jesus tells me that , as long as I listen to Him , I won't be led off the road . I don't listen to humans . I may listen to them with one ear . But , if my spiritual ear ( if you will ) does not hear *Him* , anything and everything the human says can be discarded .


With respect to those others that could be potentially led off the road ... for them to be easily led that way would suggest to me that they have been convinced *by* humans that they should listen *to* humans and do not fully understand that the Lord is Lord and desires to teach them directly and can commune with them directly . It doesn't matter whether the person they listen to is a serpent or a saint , if the person has been convinced that they can only hear the Lord through human mediators only , they have already been led incorrectly .

 

[amorosi]

Why not? If you have revelation about the agenda of who you're referring to as 'that bloodline' of the religious phonies and hypocrites (scribes and pharisees) of today, why won't you fill us in?



I'm thinking about just asking one of them just to see that they'd say--not that it would be a truthful response, but just to place myself/walk in the truth that is plain so plain for all to see. *But if I did, some would surely think that I was being rude, un-loving, unkind, and un-Christian to speak the truth so boldly.

OK--ok--I'll get back down off my soapbox.

Quite simple Johnny...Jeusus said--i have many things to say--but his disciples--were not ready to either receive it--or to bear it

Paul said the same thing--at corinth--he wanted to delve into deeper things, but milk --was where it was at.

Now im not implying everbybody in here is on milk--it's more issues of wisdom, and why have your post deleted entirely--when you can have it in part--stay up--in the forum !!

Wisdom has its own dictates

ANd it is not a matter--of hiding anything

You see Johnny--people think revelation chapter seventeen--speaks of old rome--catholicism--or they limit it--to modern day commercialism--that will eventually be judged by God

It goes beyond that--way beyond that

However--sometimes--you post, and God by his spirit, halts you--and says--okay enough said--and he ends it

It is not up to you --or me--or anyone--to play God--at that point

And say what others should or shouldn't be doing with --their posting's

When they start them--or--when they end them

IS anyone here " the holy spirit" who guides or directs people ??

Of course not

Let God have his way--and with his dictates in their life--with-out bringing them before the council or interrogating them--on the wherefore's --or why not's !

Jesus is the Lord of their life--and not some man--casting aspersions--on what he thinks--they should or shouldn't be doing--with their posts.

Im not having a go at anybody here

Just pointing out christian freedom and liberties in the Lord

It is also not my intention--to start some --long running debate--or to engage quarreling.

And this is spoken in--by--way of generalities !!

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is not a perfect world, and man still dwells in the body of this flesh. It is God alone who can intervene and direct our steps righteousness that we walk the correct paths. For the Spirit is willing, yet the flesh is weak.

 

[amorosi]

Why is it that P/C tend to think they are the only ones who have the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth. I consider myself P/C and have found a lot of error in P/C teaching. I have also found bigatry, lying, theivery, adultery, deception, etc in the P/C camp...the same people who talk about how holy they are and point fingers at how unholy everyone else is. I grew up around that. Never could figure it out. As a child I could see that all that "concern and prayer" was really gossip. As a child I could see all that prophesying was really manipulation trying to get people to live and act the way the prophesier thought they should live.

I grew up around this stuff but not until only a few years ago did I ever see anyones life actually change as a result of some of the wild stuff that went on in our church. I was use to the antics but I was not use to the changes. People who would not even give me the time of day without looking down on me were now treating me like I was their sister in the Lord. People stopped gossipping. People stopped judging other according to what they were wearing or what church they attended. People started acting like God...now THAT I was not use to.

I think we need to stop all our finger pointing at others and turn those fingers onto ourselves and tell ourself where we are missinig it. In other words I point my finger at me and say "Barbara, you are not loving enough. You are not allowing God to move through you as He wants. You are the one who's in the way. You Barbara are the one God wants to change. God is not talking to you Barbara about what He's doing or not doing in your brother or sisters life. He's talking to you Barbara about your life. Your walk."

According to the word, we don't have the right to judge the servant of another. Other people are not our servants, they are God's. We don't have the right to lift ourselves up by putting others down. We don't have the right to say "I am holy and you are not".

Yes, we need to get our eyes on Jesus. If we're looking at Him while we may notice the failures of those around us, we would also notice Him reaching down to those who fall in order to lift them up. If we're looking at Him we certaintly will not be pointing at ourseves in smugness declairing how holy we are and how unholy they are.

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to tell others I'm of the P/C faith 'cause what that conjers up in their minds is people with a mob mentality of they are the only ones right while everyone else who thinks differently is wrong.

1 Cor 13 If I speak with tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am as a loud anoying gong (Quaffers version). In my view this is not just speaking about tongues but about all the P/C manifestation...what's the point of prophesy if the prophet is not subjecting his attitude to the Spirit of Christ? What is the point of healing if the one praying the prayer of faith has the attitude of "better than thou"? Whats the point?

Rant over

You see i actually belong to a "pentecostal" type style church--this church is very large--with literally thousands of registered members.

I faithfully attend this santuary--and consider myself an active particpating member, as such, and yes i am in submission to leadership, in case anyboby is wondering.

But that does not mean--i have to conform, and agree with everything, that takes PLACE... under the roof-- of that santuary.

Let me give you just one--for instance--of what i speak

You see unity--does not mean THIS--"uniformity"

Or that we all become little --or mini-- protogeses-- of OUR pastor'S, and we mimick everything--or mirror everything around us.

Recently we had some " prophetic style ministry"... come and visit our assembly.

And before the main speaker --got up--to preach his sermon

We had a group of ladies who were from another continenent--and performed a particular "dance routine"--in the which--was somewhat familiar to their native culture, music, and dancing --i would assume

Anyway im not passing judgement on them --as such--or--the differering style-- im use to, suffice to say it was "probably not" what most pentecostals are use to themselves-- or familiar with.

The hand movements and the swinging of hips--and various gyrations etc etc

Anyway after their routine was over--the senior pastor--got up

And Was sorely dis-pleased that the congragation had not entered into the song and music routine--as--he would have hoped--from us

So he requested that they do their song and dance--all over again--basically-- an encore performance--was placed upon them, and us--the congregants

But this time he basically -- insisted--we do certain of the hand movements--to the chorus--and that we must swing this way--to the music--and then--that way to the singing [rah rah rah]

So basically it was more or less-- imposed upon us--and--expected of us--to do all these hand and arm motions and movements--to this visiting group of ladies and singers.

Regardless of wether you agreed with the music or dance style routine

YOU see at that point though--My own freedom -- or convictions--were being impinged and imposed upon, to a point of both conforming and that of conformity--or otherwise i was probably viewed as one who was the -- the stick in the mud, or your proverbial--party-pooper as such ! and the cop-outer.

However--the way i see things is --God does not want us-- to all be "cookie-cutter" lay outs of each other-- and become "protoges" and prototypes-- of one another --and nor that of..... "his"... senior pastor's and leaders "

UNITY IS NOT........ UNIFORMITY....and was... never meant to be. !!

Unity respects freedom and diversity of gifts-- and even individual personality

It would then: be wrong of us to go around trying to squeeze each others--into--our own little moulds or pre-conceived images, of what we want them to be or to become--or what we they should be in life. or in their own personal walks with Jesus

This is a sorely mis-understood aspect of christian "unity of the spirit" in the 21 century church--of today

And sadly: in most of your...... pentecostal and charismatic.... circles

And if you dare-- to buck or go against the grain of things--due to conscience or discernment, then you are perceived to be as one--of a rebel in God-- and are failing to submit to the "delegated authorities"--that be.

Well i fail to see--how--this is not--an abuse of that same authority, if we seek uniformity and conformity, to a point, we dis-respect other people's conscience, liberties, convictions, and freedom of choices in God, and to be led by his holy spirit.-in our own walks--with Jesus ??

And also: this whole thing of "pentecoastal pride" is an embarassment to our God

People are running around or preaching from pulpits " we are pentecostals" as if to mean--that somehow automatically distinguishes you--to be better--or higher up--the spiritual ladder--than other churches or groups

Im starting to understand like never before--what THE LORD JESUS--MEANT-- when he said this ...STATEMENT

THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE FIRST ( APPEAR HIGH UP...IN...THE SPIRITUAL PECKING ORDER OF THINGS )

( BUT WILL ACTUALLY BE LAST.....IOW..THAT ARE NOT AS HIGH AND LOFTY --AND SEATED AS HIGH--AS THEY THINK-- THEYare --or IN GOD'S ECONOMY OR his.... SCHEME OF THINGS )

AND THE LAST SHALL BE...... FIRST

AND im adressing issues of conformity and peer pressure in this post--and imposer's of themselves onto you--by way of controling tactics and methods of subtle manipulation--not so much teaching or doctrine espousement