Truth pollution

[Johnny Be Good]

Some folks here on CF place their trust in, submit to, rely upon, and acknowledge only the result of their own reasoning--they follow their own will-- and promote this philosophy in most everything they write here. And they simply cannot (or will not) stop when caught in this error. They can not--or will not--see that they reject the submission to God's authority in their lives; because they either choose not to--or cannot (scales/blindness)--believe God's Word.

It can be difficult to detect whether someone is doing this on purpose or whether they are simply in error. *To be sure, it's one of the two.

These folks seem to SAY the right things--and they are very knowledgeable and use the Word in very convincing ways. They don't come right out and say that we should not submit and acknowledge God first in all things--they just don't promote acknowledging God in all things! They instruct that we ought to reason and figure things out on our own. They even counsel others that healing is not in the atonement--that we do not possess the wholeness purchased for us by Jesus. What would you do if someone purposely stole your child’s healing?

When detected, these folks attempt to avoid correction by changing the subject, going on the offense, or clouding the issue in some way.

*It's fine to disagree--but it's not fine to claim Pentecostal/Charismatic faith, using your credentials and years of experience in the healing ministry to lead others away from the manifestation of the wholeness Jesus purchased for us. It's not OK to hold the position that we should not use The Word to witness--and omit the seeking of the guidance of the Holy Spirit when witnessing! Jesus, Himself IS the Word made flesh—should we not use Jesus, Himself, to share Jesus?!

These are much more than just opposite opinions that these folks hold. These things are contrary to the Word of God as we see it in the Pentecostal/Charismatic faith. Those who do these things are taking action which is in blatant opposition to God's Word, under the guise of having just another opinion—and refusing correction through still more deception.

Stating this truth (that this is going on here) is not wrong--it's truth! It's good to state truth. It's bad to state and promote disobedience and self rule through trust in your own reasoning instead of going to God in all things. It’s bad to selfishly and recklessly risk the loss of others’ manifested healing, solely in order to propagate your ‘opinion’ as a seasoned, learned, experienced minister in the Pentecostal/Charismatic faith!

Those who do these things wind up purposely leading others off the narrow road toward agreement with their faulty reasoning and polluted truth.

Do you think God is OK with this kind of thing going on unchecked? What is the answer? What should we do when we encounter the seemingly plausible reasoning of these folks? What would God have us do when we encounter these habitual polluters? Should we shut up and be nice? Should we allow our siblings in Christ be led astray through deception? What does the Word say?

What does the Word say?

 

[BUTTERS]

Gee... Johnny.
I dunno what to think!

 

[swifteagle]

We should always pray that the Lord would keep us from self deception. The Word of God is so precious to all of us and the last thing we want to do is interpret it in ways that dishonors all that Jesus did for us! And, it's not limited to healing!!

Good post JBG!

swifteagle ><>

 

[Trish1947]

What we have in our heart, is what we hold as true... I'm telling ya', if it had not been for the word of God being there, I would not have overcome a thing. What was it that Jesus said fell on stoney ground or furtile ground? .Jesus was not talking about His person, he was talking about what He said..

Good Post.. JBG..

 

[Br_Rhoades]

What does the Word say?

I think that your idea sounds good but the application is not clear, this whole forum can not be clearly pined down in maters of faith and practice much less in the relative importance of the Holy Bible. We each can stand on the Word of God and seek to do the fathers will and share our experience from the Word and keep to a general level of Christ like kindness in our replies to each other, and pray a lot. I do not think that a standard is in place that we could keep out anyone or hope to correct obvert anti Bible doctrinal error. We can walk in love and share from the Holy Bible and let the Holy Ghost do that wonderful work that he doses so well.

 

[swifteagle]

I do not think that a standard is in place that we could keep out anyone or hope to correct obvert anti Bible doctrinal error. We can walk in love and share from the Holy Bible and let the Holy Ghost do that wonderful work that he doses so well.

Why do you say that this is a Catholic forum? Am I missing something here?

swifteagle ><>

PS ~ Sorry not trying to hijack the thread just would like a quick explanation. Maybe you could pm me.

 

[msufan]

Maybe catholic with a lowercase 'c', as in "universal"??

 

[amorosi]

Good post Johnny--but remember, it is faith in God and his word--we promote here.

And not pentecostal/ charismania faith as the icon--to divine healing or deliverance !

The promotion of a name tag or a denomination's faith' or belief's, is not where it is at !!

And i say this--in a friendly courteous way to you, hope you hear me, for where i am coming from !!

And also you have got to realize--that if people don't have a "love" for the truth--then scripture says--God can and--at his--own discretion, can give these "unlovers" of truth--over to "delusion"

Jeremiah and Ezekiel--constantly re-iterated--that the false prophets--who spoke from their own hearts, and followed their own spirits, would get their own just desserts and come-uppence !!

And God sent/ allowed a "lying spirt" to King Ahab and his followers--so they would be--led astray !

If you resist clear teaching and obvious truth--for too long--God will set his face against you !!

 

[BUTTERS]

get their own just desserts

Oh boy!
I'll take cheesecake!
I sure do like cheesecake for dessert!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

[edited]
I edited my post because I gave Johnny's post another and closer read. I found myself agreeing with it. Perhaps when I read it the first time I was tired and not concentrating properly.

The basis of your post is very sound. You are quite correct that some people are using reasoning to explain away the supernatural ability of the Holy Spirit to minister to people.

I have seen it clearly when I have tried to speak faith into people as posts on the forum. I have done this because I have felt in the Spirit that these brothers and sisters needed to 'hear' the words of faith being spoken into their hearts. I feel honoured before God that some of these words have been prophetic in that the Spirit has expanded my thoughts and helped me write things I never thought of when I started the post.

But what has grieved me sometimes is that there are some who have tried to turn the ministry of faith into a useless debate which brings confusion to those who need the word the most. Perhaps those who want to debate on techicalities or alternative interpretations of scripture are trying to show their prowess in debating the issues; but all they accomplish is the shipwreck of the faith of innocent seekers who would have benefited from the word that has come through me.

I have no problem working with differences of opinion. But when there is a thread started by someone who is seeking help, surely that person deserves all the help we can give them without anyone hijacking the thread to get up on their own soapbox.

Am I on a soapbox here? Probably. Sorry if I hijacked your thread, brother, but your post stimulated me to mention this.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Good post Johnny--but remember, it is faith in God and his word--we promote here.

And not pentecostal/ charismania faith as the icon--to divine healing or deliverance !

The promotion of a name tag or a denomination's faith' or belief's, is not where it is at !!

And i say this--in a friendly courteous way to you, hope you hear me, for where i am coming from !!

Yes--I was aware that some might have issue with me using the P/C tag. We are in agreement, though, bro. The reason I mentioned it was that this is a P/C forum, and that there are folks here who represent themselves as having P/C affiliation, as P/C clergy, and as having a long history in the P/C healing part of the body. These folks who represent the P/C establishment are actively attempting to explain away healing as a myth, as well as point people to trust the product of their finite thought processes as opposed to looking to God in all things and trusting Him whether we understand things or not.

*The point here is that we are to understand with our HEARTS, and not necessarily with out beans. When we evaluate both and choose the product of our thought processes to take action upon, we are not following, and not in obedience to, God, but instead are in obedience to ourselves. I think I explained that a bit better in the OP than right here...

Now, to be fair, some of these folks may have encountered other unfaithful clergy in error in the past, but if their eyes had been on Jesus instead of the other unfaithful clergy in error (man), they wouldn't be in the business of purposeful faith theivery and selfish service that they're in today. That said, I know where you are coming from, brother. Yes, we believe that healing and wholeness is for everyone in the body of Jesus.

And also you have got to realize--that if people don't have a "love" for the truth--then scripture says--God can and--at his--own discretion, can give these "unlovers" of truth--over to "delusion"

Jeremiah and Ezekiel--constantly re-iterated--that the false prophets--who spoke from their own hearts, and followed their own spirits, would get their own just desserts and come-uppence !!

And God sent/ allowed a "lying spirt" to King Ahab and his followers--so they would be--led astray !

If you resist clear teaching and obvious truth--for too long--God will set his face against you !!

That's a true shame--but who am I to say it's wrong of God to make this so? All I have to say is that while there is still breath, these folks continue to have the chance to repent and be a refreshing vessel for God's use. This really is my prayer for these folks. Really--no matter their reaction to the truth I write here. I don't hate them--I merely intend to do my part. Truth is in opposition to the error they propagate, so they attemp to turn things into a personal assault. I believe, however, that God wants His children to breath clean air, so to speak. So no matter the charge by them, I'll stand on the side of Truth.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

I just caught a polluter reading this post. What a great tool for God these folks would be if they would only step out in faith instead of making choices in clear opposition to God's Word.

Let's pray for repentance. Wouldn't it be great to see a refreshing occur--to see God use these folks to spread the good news in agreement with God's Word?!

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Johnny, God must be speaking to your heart about your need to be sure that you acknowledge God in all your ways. Sometimes when we think that God is talking about others, it's really me He is talking to. Stand in front of your bathroom mirror, brother and preach it to yourself, and see how God applies it to you.

I'm not sure what you're getting at--I'm speaking truth here. Please explain.

 

[amorosi]

Yes--I was aware that some might have issue with me using the P/C tag. We are in agreement, though, bro. The reason I mentioned it was that this is a P/C forum, and that there are folks here who represent themselves as having P/C affiliation, as P/C clergy, and as having a long history in the P/C healing part of the body. These folks who represent the P/C establishment are actively attempting to explain away healing as a myth, as well as point people to trust the product of their finite thought processes as opposed to looking to God in all things and trusting Him whether we understand things or not.

*The point here is that we are to understand with our HEARTS, and not necessarily with out beans. When we evaluate both and choose the product of our thought processes to take action upon, we are not following, and not in obedience to, God, but instead are in obedience to ourselves. I think I explained that a bit better in the OP than right here...

Now, to be fair, some of these folks may have encountered other unfaithful clergy in error in the past, but if their eyes had been on Jesus instead of the other unfaithful clergy in error (man), they wouldn't be in the business of purposeful faith theivery and selfish service that they're in today. That said, I know where you are coming from, brother. Yes, we believe that healing and wholeness is for everyone in the body of Jesus.



That's a true shame--but who am I to say it's wrong of God to make this so? All I have to say is that while there is still breath, these folks continue to have the chance to repent and be a refreshing vessel for God's use. This really is my prayer for these folks. Really--no matter their reaction to the truth I write here. I don't hate them--I merely intend to do my part. Truth is in opposition to the error they propagate, so they attemp to turn things into a personal assault. I believe, however, that God wants His children to breath clean air, so to speak. So no matter the charge by them, I'll stand on the side of Truth.

That's true also Johnny be Good
But what im saying --if you continue to resisit truth for too long--as the scribes and pharisee's did--you dig a "big ditch" for yourself--and the level and degree of blindness --inflicted UPON YOUSELF--almost becomes "incurable" !!

And as harsh as this may sound--they actually get their come uppence--for despising not man--but God

FOR example--If God sends some one in here[CF] who is definitely a genuine Prophet or an apostle--or perhaps in "the making of one"--in that they are a prophet--but just --haven't been fully released yet !!

ANd to bear outr that above paragragh i just "typed" Jesus told his physical mother Mary--at the marriage feast of Cana--that his time "had not yet" fully come--and we read further down in the passage--where it says --that as of yet-- he had done no miracle. !!

SO therefore-- God launches his prophets and holy Apostles,--when he sees fit too, and when he[God] knows--they are ready --for full scale operation--to the body of Christ.

Now i said all that--to say this--If GOD sent a prophet in here--and people resist and resist and resist, despising his words, his posts, his messages, fighting him tooth and toe nail, attacking, and opposing at every turn and corner.

Then how is that any different--to the same level of anomisity and opposition--the religious phonies and hypocrites--expressed towards the LORD Jesus ?? [in effect is it any different ?]

Paul told them to in acts...be careul now "ye despiser's"

And in another passage he said ....he that despises....despises not man...but God.

Now im not implying or insinuating that any of those 2 office gifts--are regarding myself, i merely make this point--things have now turned full circle--it's no longer Jesus that is oppossed--once again it has gone "full circle"--to once again-- opposing his prophets and true messenger's --and "that bloodline" or the descendants of the of the pharisee's and saduccees--still exists--but where did it go ?? or has it gone to ?

Revelation chapter 17 clearly tells us that bloodline or the family sons and daughters-- that KILLED the prophets and CRUCIFIED our Lord--still exists today--AND has gone elsewhere--and has now manifested itself--in a NEW FORM--and just different variations, as the actual pharisee and saduccee, as we all know, don't exist anymore--but it's bloodline and family decendants DO.

REVELATION CHAPTER 17: SAYS HER CUP--IS FULL OF THE SAINTS BLOOD, AND THE MARTYR'S OF JESUS

SO WHERE HAS AND DID THIS BLOOD-LINE, OR FAMILY OFFSPRING OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEE'S --AND ALL OF THE OTHER RELIGIOUS PHONIES --GONE TOO ??

According to the book of revelation--it--is still present, and exists in the earth !!

The other thing though--is everyone has now come to accept --new covenant--replacing old covenant, so unlike the religious phonies of old that killed all the saints and marty's--they know--that stoning people to death, or murder, or crucifixition, to who you think--is off base, is now outruled, and is punishable by civil law !!

So what is the new agenda--of that bloodline--knowing that can't physically murder us anymore.

I know the answer to this

But i will say no more

SEEK and ye--shall find--all the treasures of wisdom and revelation knowledge-- are --and can be found--in the holy writ !!.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not sure what you're getting at--I'm speaking truth here. Please explain.

Sorry brother, I made an error of judgement. I was tired when I read your post and didn't read it properly. I have now edited my post to reflect the truth of what you are saying and my support of it.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

So what is the new agenda--of that bloodline--knowing that can't physically murder us anymore.

I know the answer to this

But i will say no more

Why not? If you have revelation about the agenda of who you're referring to as 'that bloodline' of the religious phonies and hypocrites (scribes and pharisees) of today, why won't you fill us in?



I'm thinking about just asking one of them just to see that they'd say--not that it would be a truthful response, but just to place myself/walk in the truth that is plain so plain for all to see. *But if I did, some would surely think that I was being rude, un-loving, unkind, and un-Christian to speak the truth so boldly.

OK--ok--I'll get back down off my soapbox.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Why is it that P/C tend to think they are the only ones who have the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth. I consider myself P/C and have found a lot of error in P/C teaching. I have also found bigatry, lying, theivery, adultery, deception, etc in the P/C camp...the same people who talk about how holy they are and point fingers at how unholy everyone else is. I grew up around that. Never could figure it out. As a child I could see that all that "concern and prayer" was really gossip. As a child I could see all that prophesying was really manipulation trying to get people to live and act the way the prophesier thought they should live.

I grew up around this stuff but not until only a few years ago did I ever see anyones life actually change as a result of some of the wild stuff that went on in our church. I was use to the antics but I was not use to the changes. People who would not even give me the time of day without looking down on me were now treating me like I was their sister in the Lord. People stopped gossipping. People stopped judging other according to what they were wearing or what church they attended. People started acting like God...now THAT I was not use to.

I think we need to stop all our finger pointing at others and turn those fingers onto ourselves and tell ourself where we are missinig it. In other words I point my finger at me and say "Barbara, you are not loving enough. You are not allowing God to move through you as He wants. You are the one who's in the way. You Barbara are the one God wants to change. God is not talking to you Barbara about what He's doing or not doing in your brother or sisters life. He's talking to you Barbara about your life. Your walk."

According to the word, we don't have the right to judge the servant of another. Other people are not our servants, they are God's. We don't have the right to lift ourselves up by putting others down. We don't have the right to say "I am holy and you are not".

Yes, we need to get our eyes on Jesus. If we're looking at Him while we may notice the failures of those around us, we would also notice Him reaching down to those who fall in order to lift them up. If we're looking at Him we certaintly will not be pointing at ourseves in smugness declairing how holy we are and how unholy they are.

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to tell others I'm of the P/C faith 'cause what that conjers up in their minds is people with a mob mentality of they are the only ones right while everyone else who thinks differently is wrong.

1 Cor 13 If I speak with tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am as a loud anoying gong (Quaffers version). In my view this is not just speaking about tongues but about all the P/C manifestation...what's the point of prophesy if the prophet is not subjecting his attitude to the Spirit of Christ? What is the point of healing if the one praying the prayer of faith has the attitude of "better than thou"? Whats the point?

Rant over

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Why is it that P/C tend to think they are the only ones who have the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth. I consider myself P/C and have found a lot of error in P/C teaching. I have also found bigatry, lying, theivery, adultery, deception, etc in the P/C camp...the same people who talk about how holy they are and point fingers at how unholy everyone else is. I grew up around that. Never could figure it out. As a child I could see that all that "concern and prayer" was really gossip. As a child I could see all that prophesying was really manipulation trying to get people to live and act the way the prophesier thought they should live.

I grew up around this stuff but not until only a few years ago did I ever see anyones life actually change as a result of some of the wild stuff that went on in our church. I was use to the antics but I was not use to the changes. People who would not even give me the time of day without looking down on me were now treating me like I was their sister in the Lord. People stopped gossipping. People stopped judging other according to what they were wearing or what church they attended. People started acting like God...now THAT I was not use to.

I think we need to stop all our finger pointing at others and turn those fingers onto ourselves and tell ourself where we are missinig it. In other words I point my finger at me and say "Barbara, you are not loving enough. You are not allowing God to move through you as He wants. You are the one who's in the way. You Barbara are the one God wants to change. God is not talking to you Barbara about what He's doing or not doing in your brother or sisters life. He's talking to you Barbara about your life. Your walk."

According to the word, we don't have the right to judge the servant of another. Other people are not our servants, they are God's. We don't have the right to lift ourselves up by putting others down. We don't have the right to say "I am holy and you are not".

Yes, we need to get our eyes on Jesus. If we're looking at Him while we may notice the failures of those around us, we would also notice Him reaching down to those who fall in order to lift them up. If we're looking at Him we certaintly will not be pointing at ourseves in smugness declairing how holy we are and how unholy they are.

Sometimes I'm embarrassed to tell others I'm of the P/C faith 'cause what that conjers up in their minds is people with a mob mentality of they are the only ones right while everyone else who thinks differently is wrong.

1 Cor 13 If I speak with tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am as a loud anoying gong (Quaffers version). In my view this is not just speaking about tongues but about all the P/C manifestation...what's the point of prophesy if the prophet is not subjecting his attitude to the Spirit of Christ? What is the point of healing if the one praying the prayer of faith has the attitude of "better than thou"? Whats the point?

Rant over

Huh?

You lost me. I honestly can't see who you've judged to be in the wrong here because I'm always careful to judge myself by criteria I see used--and use myself.

You see, even though I obviously have a burning zeal to ensure that others do not purposely, selfishly misrepresent the Charactor of God (solely, in pride, to lead others in the direction the are going to satisfy their own ego), I am also always in the self-analyzation mode too. Maybe I should just sit down and shut up about this. Who am I to try to stop others from leaving the narrow way? Am I my brothers' keeper?! For me, this is a never-ending struggle--should I or shouldn't I say something?

I desire to remove the stumbling block from the narrow path to ensure others are not tripped up and led astray. I DO believe that being angry--and sinning not--is the balance to achieve. I DO aim not to make things personal--and I DO pray for those I see pumping pollution into the atmosphere. Actually, right after I ask God to reveal Himself to them in Truth, I always ask that He do the same for ME!

You see, I've actually seen others here lose faith and give up on believing for the healing that Jesus purchased for us through incredible, inconceiveable pain and agony, at the words of habitual, purposeful, selfish polluters! *I do not think it is haterid that I have for these folks--it's not a personal thing.

I ask you: How do we share the Good News without pointing out that Jesus IS the Good News, for example?!

What should be done when one sees a person struggling, on the ege of faith in believing that they WERE healed and ARE whole, and then someone tells them that they're only heading for disaster and pain if they step out into FAITH: THE PLACE WHERE OUR MINDS CANNOT SUPPORT US--and they lose heart to instead possess their tangeable brokeness; founded upon the understanding of their brains, as OPPOSED to their hearts? *FAITH is understanding with our hearts, NOT our brains!

Am I my brothers' keeper?

 

[YAWANNAKNOWJESUS?]

I think we need to stop all our finger pointing at others and turn those fingers onto ourselves and tell ourself where we are missinig it. In other words I point my finger at me and say "Barbara, you are not loving enough. You are not allowing God to move through you as He wants. You are the one who's in the way. You Barbara are the one God wants to change. God is not talking to you Barbara about what He's doing or not doing in your brother or sisters life. He's talking to you Barbara about your life. Your walk."

According to the word, we don't have the right to judge the servant of another. Other people are not our servants, they are God's. We don't have the right to lift ourselves up by putting others down. We don't have the right to say "I am holy and you are not".

Yes, we need to get our eyes on Jesus. If we're looking at Him while we may notice the failures of those around us, we would also notice Him reaching down to those who fall in order to lift them up. If we're looking at Him we certaintly will not be pointing at ourseves in smugness declairing how holy we are and how unholy they are.

 

[Joy]

Amen Quaffer

Love
Karen