Truth of REVELATION made PLAIN.

[Brian45]

What it means is you have to be led by the Holy Spirit to understand Revelation.

So anyone with a different view to yourself could not possibly be led by the holy spirit and there for is in error , is that correct?

 

[Revealing Times]

So anyone with a different view to yourself could not possibly be led by the holy spirit and there for is in error , is that correct?

"That's cute" but not what I said per se. You stated the Book of Revelation was not meant to be understood or can't be understood, else there wouldn't be 100's of interpretations. I stated that book of Revelation MEANS the Revealing, or.....John at Patmos: the receiving of an apocalyptic vision. Anapocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω, literally meaning "an uncovering") is a disclosure of knowledge or revelation.

So the very meaning of the book, proves your description is wrong, HENCE WHY ARE THERE 100'S OF INTERPRETATIONS ? Because NO DOUBT many are not hearing from the Holy Spirit, but from Satan, who is as an ANGEL OF LIGHT.

Remember in the garden of Gethsemane, Peter wanted to FIGHT those that were going to come and take Jesus away, but what did Jesus say to him ? Get thee BEHIND ME SATAN !! Peter was listening to Satan, "PROTECT YOUR MESSIAH/KING, Fight for him. Jesus had already told him, my Kingdom is not of this world, but in Heaven. You see, we must HEAR THE HOLY SPIRIT, and not Satan's voice.

And since the Revelation means a REVEALING, those that cant seem to understand it, aren't trying hard enough, or are not being led by the Holy Spirit. Many just don't try it seems, then take guesses, others hear things and can't see the lies mixed with half truths.

Revelation is encoded by the Old Testament. Once that sinks in, most everyone can understand it.

 

[Major1]

What it means is you have to be led by the Holy Spirit to understand Revelation. REVELATION means an opening of he curtain, or a REVEALING. So it is not that hard to understand, but then again, Satan lies, and sadly many heed his lies.

I would say to you that the Revelation is the "revealing" of the book of Daniel. Without an understanding of Daniel's prophecies, Revelation is just another book.

 

[Major1]

If that were true then every one on this eschatology forum would be on the same page , the fact that we are not should tell you something.

I wish that was the case. But unfortunately, every Christian forum has those people who have a false agenda which is NOT Biblical that that seek to promote.

The "Preterists" and "Replacement Theologists" have been utterly deceived and instead of digging into the Bible and finding the truth of God's Word, they instead fall on the internet's false teachers who are accountable to no one.

You see, a Bible teacher is accountable to God, BUT he is also accountable to his congregation. When a man teaches false theology such as the Preterists theology, his congregation leaves and he has no one to teach his distortions to.

But when he is on the computer web sites, he has anominimity and is not accountable to anyone.

 

[BABerean2]

The "Preterists" and "Replacement Theologists" have been utterly deceived and instead of digging into the Bible and finding the truth of God's Word, they instead fall on the internet's false teachers who are accountable to no one.

Let us examine the most important genealogy in God’s Word. It begins with Abraham and ends with Christ. Based on the words of Paul in Galatians 3:16, this chapter reveals the promise made to Abraham that through his seed, Jesus Christ, all the nations would be blessed.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

In chapter 3 of the same book John the Baptist tells those of his time not to put their faith in being the seed of Abraham.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Later in the book of Matthew we find out who the heir to the land of Israel really is. He would pay the purchase price in His own Blood at Calvary.

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.


The leadership of the nation of Israel pronounced their own punishment for killing the heir when asked by Christ what should be done in this situation. He also revealed the kingdom of God would be taken from them and would be given to a nation to bring forth fruit.

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Peter reveals this nation who would accept the Chief Cornerstone.


1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

If one merely quotes the scripture above, the charge of “Replacement Theology” often comes from those who are attempting to hold onto their Two Peoples of God doctrine. Their charge often sounds something like the following…

“The Gentile Church has not replaced Israel.”

We would most certainly agree, since the Church as a whole has never been a “Gentile Church”. It began on the Day of Pentecost as a Church made up almost entirely of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite Christians several years later. Paul makes it clear in Romans 11:1 that God has not rejected the remnant of Israelites who place their faith in His Son, in the same way 7,000 Israelites would not bow down to Baal.



Who is actually promoting a form of “Replacement Theology”, through the following methods of replacement.

1. Replace the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into One Olive tree, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

2. Replace the One Seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

3. Replace the children of the Promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh.

4. Replace the word “so” in Romans 11:26, with the word “then”.

5. Replace the true “heir” in Matthew chapter 21, who is the true owner of the land, with those who reject Him as the Chief Cornerstone.

6. Replace the covenant confirmed by Christ in Daniel 9:27, with a treaty broken by an antichrist not found in the chapter, by adding a “gap” not mentioned either.


Race is not a factor in the New Covenant. We find Timothy making a statement which reveals that genealogy is not important during his time.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.



Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29　 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Above, Paul makes it clear that we are Abraham's seed and inherit the promise, through faith in Christ.)　


We must ask ourselves the following question…

Is there now any difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest, and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the modern nation of Israel?

Based on the words of the New Testament, they both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.



Do we find Two separate Peoples of God with Two separate Plans in the words of Christ, found below?

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.



Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The modern Church must keep our focus on the Gospel of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13 and found specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The only way to get into the fold above is by being “Born Again” through faith in Christ. It cannot come from immersion in water, and all bloodlines of people now come into the fold in the same way. According to Hebrews 13:20, the New Blood Covenant is “everlasting”. The Blood-bought Grace of the Lamb will not end before the Second Coming of Christ, based on Revelation 12:11.


As for "Preterism" the disciples asked two questions and Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse, as revealed by Luke 21:20-28.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of your Second Coming?

That would make Jesus a "partial-Preterist", since He did not return to earth in 70 AD. He remained seated at the Father's right hand.

He will return to make all things right at His Second Coming, at some point in the future.

.

 

[FJH]

The book of Revelation was meant to be UNDERSTOOD! Never has such complete understanding ever been revealed AS YOU WILL FIND OUT.

I have recently carried out an extensive study of the Book of Revelation and have come to the conclusion that it should never have been included in the NT canon because contrary to popular belief, they are not the words of Jesus. If you would like to read my study please visit
The Apocalypse Deception, Exposing Revelation, Book of Revelation

Ask yourself this?
What is odd about the Apocalypse is we find Jesus speaking to the author in visions through an angel who has no name. Why would Jesus require an angelic mediator to speak on his behalf? Something is amiss here. This is because Jesus has always appeared in person to convey any message he himself has made that needed to be communicated, just as the Apostle Paul relates in his letter to the Corinthians:

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." (I Corinthians 15;3-8)

As Paul said, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6) Thus, Paul warns Christians to beware of "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ." These false apostles mimic the deceptions of Satan who "disguises himself as an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:13-14)

It is interesting to note that the visions of the Apocalypse are presented through an unnamed angel to John of Patmos so the following warning from Paul takes on considerable importance. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" (Galatians 1:8) Furthermore, Jesus himself said that the time would come when there would be those who claimed to represent him especially in the context of future events, even though he had already told everything that needed to be said, in advance.

"And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Messiah'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him; for false Messiahs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance." (Mark 13:21-23) [bold mine]

 

[dysert]

Ask yourself this?
What is odd about the Apocalypse is we find Jesus speaking to the author in visions through an angel who has no name. Why would Jesus require an angelic mediator to speak on his behalf? Something is amiss here. This is because Jesus has always appeared in person to convey any message he himself has made that needed to be communicated, just as the Apostle Paul relates in his letter to the Corinthians:

This is obviously not true (so I stopped reading your post here). Read the book of Daniel for an example. And I suggest taking another go at reading Revelation a few more times if you want to understand it.

 

[BABerean2]

I have recently carried out an extensive study of the Book of Revelation and have come to the conclusion that it should never have been included in the NT canon because contrary to popular belief, they are not the words of Jesus. If you would like to read my study please visit
The Apocalypse Deception, Exposing Revelation, Book of Revelation

Ask yourself this?
What is odd about the Apocalypse is we find Jesus speaking to the author in visions through an angel who has no name. Why would Jesus require an angelic mediator to speak on his behalf? Something is amiss here. This is because Jesus has always appeared in person to convey any message he himself has made that needed to be communicated, just as the Apostle Paul relates in his letter to the Corinthians:

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." (I Corinthians 15;3-8)

As Paul said, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6) Thus, Paul warns Christians to beware of "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ." These false apostles mimic the deceptions of Satan who "disguises himself as an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:13-14)

It is interesting to note that the visions of the Apocalypse are presented through an unnamed angel to John of Patmos so the following warning from Paul takes on considerable importance. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" (Galatians 1:8) Furthermore, Jesus himself said that the time would come when there would be those who claimed to represent him especially in the context of future events, even though he had already told everything that needed to be said, in advance.

"And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Messiah'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him; for false Messiahs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance." (Mark 13:21-23) [bold mine]

Act_8:26　 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert

Act_10:3　 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!"

Act_10:7　 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually.

Act_10:22　 And they said, "Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you."

Act_11:13　 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,

Act_12:7　 Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, "Arise quickly!" And his chains fell off his hands.

Act_12:8　 Then the angel said to him, "Gird yourself and tie on your sandals"; and so he did. And he said to him, "Put on your garment and follow me."


Act_12:10　 When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.

Act_12:11　 And when Peter had come to himself, he said, "Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people."


Act_12:23　 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.



Act_27:23　 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
Act 27:24　 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.'　


.

 

[FJH]

Act_8:26　 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert

Act_10:3　 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!"

Act_10:7　 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually.

Act_10:22　 And they said, "Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you."

Act_11:13　 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,

Act_12:7　 Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, "Arise quickly!" And his chains fell off his hands.

Act_12:8　 Then the angel said to him, "Gird yourself and tie on your sandals"; and so he did. And he said to him, "Put on your garment and follow me."


Act_12:10　 When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.

Act_12:11　 And when Peter had come to himself, he said, "Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people."


Act_12:23　 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.



Act_27:23　 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
Act 27:24　 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.'　


.

Absolutely! No problem. All your references refer to angels that are sent by God or Jesus to do something, but none of them speak the words of Jesus as is claimed by John in Revelation. The angels instead carry out a task. Also note that Acts 10 you quoted the angel came from God and not Jesus.

 

[FJH]

This is obviously not true (so I stopped reading your post here). Read the book of Daniel for an example. And I suggest taking another go at reading Revelation a few more times if you want to understand it.

The book of Daniel which I have studied intensely and I am in the process writing a book about it especially in connection with the Coming of the Messiah (Jesus) and the Antichrist, stands by itself without the need for the Book of Revelation to interpret it.

If you don't want read my post on Revelation, that is fine if you do not wish to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) but perhaps you might be interested in an article I wrote in which the name of the Messiah is actually recorded in the Book of Zechariah.

The Messiah Name Conspiracy, The Name of the Messiah is recorded in the Tanakh (Old Testament) by the prophet Zechariah and is in plain sight

 

[BABerean2]

but none of them speak the words of Jesus as is claimed by John in Revelation

Are you saying that the Apostle John is not speaking the truth?


In Acts 27:23-24 the angels "task" is to bring a message, which is the same task that happened in the Book of Revelation.

Christ is now seated at the Father's right hand. If an angel is sent from God, Christ is going to be well aware of what is happening.

.

 

[FJH]

Are you saying that the Apostle John is not speaking the truth?


In Acts 27:23-24 the angels "task" is to bring a message, which is the same task that happened in the Book of Revelation.

Christ is now seated at the Father's right hand. If an angel is sent from God, Christ is going to be well aware of what is happening.

.

Are you saying that the Apostle John is not speaking the truth?


In Acts 27:23-24 the angels "task" is to bring a message, which is the same task that happened in the Book of Revelation.

Christ is now seated at the Father's right hand. If an angel is sent from God, Christ is going to be well aware of what is happening.

.

The Apostle John did not write the Book of Revelation. He was killed about the same time as his brother James.

John the Elder, the Beloved Disciple wrote the Gospel and the Epistles and eg: R H Charles:

"That the Gospel and Epistles were from one and the same author, who was probably John the Elder..."

"The grammatical differences... make the assumption of a common authorship of the Gospel and the Apocalypse absolutely impossible."

May I suggest you read my study which contains copious references and evidence that John, the Son of Zebedee was killed about 46 AD which means He could not have written the Gospel, Epistles or Revelation.

 

[FJH]

Are you saying that the Apostle John is not speaking the truth?


In Acts 27:23-24 the angels "task" is to bring a message, which is the same task that happened in the Book of Revelation.

Christ is now seated at the Father's right hand. If an angel is sent from God, Christ is going to be well aware of what is happening.

.

At no time has Jesus sent an angel to speak on His behalf. Jesus is the mediator between God and Man and has spoken to his disciples directly or in a vision, but never through an angel. Hence Revelation begins:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him [to Jesus] to show his servants what must soon take place. He [Jesus] made it known by sending his angel [unnamed] to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw-that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 1: 1-2)

As Paul said, that he [Jesus] appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he [Jesus] appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he [Jesus] appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he [Jesus] appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." (I Corinthians 15;3-8)

No angel was involved. The book of Revelation contradicts the New Testament and the Old which my study shows - and rejects Paul's writings and teaches a different gospel. Hence, ""But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" (Galatians 1:8)

 

[FJH]

If you do a search on Google you will find hundreds of websites (and books) telling you that although the Apocalypse is very hard to understand, they have "cracked the code" as one book by Gerard Bodson put it. But when you compare their interpretations, they all differ from one another. Why is that?

"All sorts of wild-eyed cranks have gone to it for confirmation of their theories, and they have twisted and tortured its words to obtain the desired testimony in their favor, as never heretic was racked in the dungeons of the Inquisition. A welter of conflicting interpretations has gathered about the text, until the average man has concluded that nobody knows anything about its meaning."

Surely, if the message from God via Jesus was so important it would have been one that would have been able to be understood by those reading it, especially those who lived during the period when it was shown.

But from the very beginning it was considered beyond comprehension, and many rejected the book of Revelation for this very reason. In the 250s, Alexandrian Bishop Dionysius, who was acknowledged as a brilliant scholar of his day, wrote a brilliant critical analysis of John's Revelation which showed just how many Christians before of his time rejected the work because of it "being without sense or argument."

"Some before us" Dionysius said, "have set aside and rejected the book altogether, criticizing it chapter by chapter, and pronouncing it without sense or argument, and maintaining that the title is fraudulent. For they say that it is not the work of John, nor is it a Revelation, because it is covered thickly and densely by a veil of obscurity."

Even Dionysius, with all his knowledge of the scriptures, said that he could not comprehend it. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History. Hist. VII.25)

Move forward two-thousand years to the present day and we find that nothing has changed. The meaning of the prophecies described in the Apocalypse continues to defy explanation. There are hundreds of interpretations but no consensus as to what the message within it represents.

 

[FJH]

The situation today remains just as bad with at least four schools of thought that have emerged to explain the future that the Apocalypse is professing. These are:

The Preterist Interpretation
The Apocalypse is a symbolic account of the first century church's struggle with Roman persecution. The symbols are drawn from ancient texts as well as contemporary culture to dramatize the plight of the church and to encourage its members in the face of troubled times. The "beast" is usually identified with the Empire of Rome, or a particular Roman emperor. While the book does deal with the future, in this view it is focused largely in the first century, and extrapolates and projects the first century experience of the church into the future. This view gained prominence in the 17th and 18th century as more knowledge of the history of the early church, as well as other apocalyptic writings from the period, came to light.

The Historicist Interpretation
The Apocalypse basically deals with all of human history with particular relevance to what is going to happen in the Western world at the end of the age. It is the most popular approach in the West. The meaning of the symbols are to be found in the events of history. Some hold that the book deals more with the period prior to the present, some see it as unfolding in the present, and some emphasize the future more.

All of the book is a symbolic account of the whole scope of world history, with the "beast" identified with various historical figures or peoples, from the Saracens, to Mohammed, to the Pope, to Adolph Hitler. However, there is another interpretation within the Historicist framework which and sees the book as only dealing with events associated with the church; it is an account of the church through history. This was the view adopted by many Protestants following the Reformation and was adopted by most of the Reformers in the 16th century, including Martin Luther who popularized the idea that the "beast" was the Roman Catholic Pope. In turn, Catholic theologians were convinced that Luther was the "beast."

The Futurist Interpretation
Apart from chapters 2 and 3, the Apocalypse is all about the end of the world. It is only relevant to the people who will be living when the world comes to an end. The book predicts events which will accompany the end of the world. Chapters 1-3 generally are seen to refer to the events of the interpreters' own time, and the rest of the book is future. Present history is analysed to find in it clues that the end is imminent, or already beginning to take place. Usually this is done by combining references from various parts of the Bible to construct an interpretation of the present. This was the position held during the first centuries of the church, and was revived with the Adventist and Dispensationalist movements of the 19th century.

The Idealist Interpretation
This is not about actual events that took place. It is dramatic, imaginative, symbolic writing about the principles whereby God operates in the world today. The Apocalypse, while rooted in the social and historical setting of the first century church, contains a message that transcends that setting. It illustrates, in the struggles of the early church, abiding spiritual principles that are applicable to all of human experience throughout history. The symbols can refer to specific people or events in that time, for example, the emperor Nero, but they also become symbols for a larger reality tied to common human experience. The "beast" symbolizes Nero, while Nero symbolizes the lack of control we experience in our lives, as well as those who exercise power over us in destructive ways.

What these four schools of thought show is that here we are in 2016 no wiser in the interpretation of the Apocalypse than were the Christians who first read the book during the first centuries after it was published. How then is it possible for a book, reputed to provide details of future events, a book with a message of such importance to be conveyed from the lips of Jesus, be open to so much interpretation and abuse? It does not make sense for Jesus to reveal to his servants additional information pertaining to the future beyond that which he has already explained "everything ahead of time", only to do so in such away in the Apocalypse that even today its understanding remains ambiguous.

Furthermore, for a message of such importance, the book of Revelation is written in such poor Greek and Grammar that one cannot help but to ask, how could Jesus allow such terrible writing to express His words "to show his servants". It is true that Jesus used parables in the past to convey His meanings of what He preached but there is nothing in the Apocalypse that even comes close to the simplicity of these. It simply defies logic and reason for Jesus to convey details of the future in such away that it is so badly written and so unintelligible that nobody will be able to understand what He is saying. The countless interpretations throughout the ages prove that.

"With its strange, many-headed monsters and mystifying symbols, Revelation has provided through the centuries the raw material for a myriad of equally strange and mystifying interpretations and predictions. From the second century on, every succeeding generation of Christians has had its prophecy pundits who claimed to understand and rightly "interpret" Revelation's symbols as referring to nations and events in their particular day and "proving" that Christ would return in their generation. And all of them were wrong... Many scholars, preachers and religious hobbyists, of course, have been painting the symbolism of Revelation with all sorts of creative interpretations for nearly two thousand years." [6]
The fact that there has been no consensus of what the book means after two-thousand years of deliberation leaves me to ask if it would have been better if it had not been written at all, because all the book has done is sow confusion and fear.

 

[BABerean2]

At no time has Jesus sent an angel to speak on His behalf.

Act 27:23　 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,　
Act 27:24　 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.'　

I cannot accept your statement above, based on Acts 27:23-24.
The Apostle Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Paul was serving God and His Son at the same time.

There was an angel who brought him a message in Acts 27 in the same way that an angel brought a message to Philip in Acts 8:26.

This angel of God was speaking on behalf of Christ and his ministry, of which Paul was a representative.

The Book of Revelation should be judged instead on whether or not it produces conflict with the rest of the New Testament. There is nothing in the book that makes it not compatible with the other books of the New Covenant. It reveals the New Heavens and the New Earth of the everlasting covenant found in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

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[FJH]

The Book of Revelation should be judged instead on whether or not it produces conflict with the rest of the New Testament. There is nothing in the book that makes it not compatible with the other books of the New Covenant. It reveals the New Heavens and the New Earth of the everlasting covenant found in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

I agree with you. The Book of Revelation should be judged against the rest of the Bible to see if it contradicts. There are many contradictions that I show in my study but as you talk about the New Earth etc, here is just one to prove the point.

The Bible only mentions Gog and Magog in two places: Ezekiel 38:1- 39:16 and Revelation 20:7-11, but while these two instances carry the same names, a close study of Scripture clearly demonstrates they do not refer to the same people or events. Both cannot be right, so the question is, which one is the true account of future events.

In Ezekiels's account of the coming of Gods Kingdom, it is through Gog that God will demonstrate to the atheist Israeli Zionist elite that it is He and not them who brought them out of the nations, and by His actions against this atheist Israeli government. God will prove to the entire world that He is God when he brings about His kingdom under the rule of his Son's Second Coming in Jerusalem and the present ungodly Jews will be among them. Never again will the Jews profane his holy name as they do now under the Zionist regime.

"I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of." (Exekiel 39:7) [bold mine]

In Ezekiel's prophecy, Gog from the land of Magog (Ezekiel 38:1) is the name given to a leader of a great army that attacks the land of Israel and Jerusalem in particular, just before the coming of the Kingdom of God under the rule of Jesus, the Son of God.

"This is what the Sovereign Lord says: You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground." (Ezekiel 38:17-20)

On that day, people all over the world will become fearful when they see Gog and his armies move against Israel. They will know that God had foretold this. The great earthquake described is the same one that the prophet Zechariah describes when he says:

"A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him." (Zechariah 14:1-5)

The prophets Ezekiel and Zechariah are in agreement with the events leading to the Second Coming and the installation of the Kingdom of God under the rule of his Son.

It is important to recognise that Ezekiel's Gog is described as leading a group of nations, those from Gog's own nation of Magog which includes Meshek and Tubal within it area of influence, and joined with him are the armies of Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth Togarmah from the far north. Many other nations are not involved and when God's kingdom is established we are told that "many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him." (Zechariah 8:22) and that God will "settle disputes for strong nations far and wide". (Micah 4:3)

"In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." (Micah 4:1-3)

The events described in Ezekiel all come before and at the Second Coming of Christ. Now let us compare this with what the book of Revelation says about Gog.

The first thing to be observed is that Gog of the book of Revelation does not attack before or at the Second Coming of Christ, but a thousand years afterwards - after the thousand year reign of Jesus and the saints that follows the first destruction of all of mankind at the Battle of Armageddon, on the great day of God Almighty. (Revelation 16) Satan however is seized and bound for a thousand years " to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." (Revelation 20:1-3)

"When the thousand years are over, Satan is released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth-Gog and Magog-and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:7-10)

Incidentally, the term Armageddon does not appear any of the Hebrew scriptures (Old Testament) nor does it in the Christian Greek scriptures (New Testament), nor in any of the Jewish apocalypses, or in the Apocrypha. This is another invention of the author of the Apocalypse.
There are several things to observe about Gog in the book of Revelation, For starters, Gog and Magog are described as two entities that are evidently symbolic of all the nations of the four corners of the earth. In contrast, Ezekiel, Gog comes from the land of Magog.

Next, in the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth (Ezekiel 38:6, 15; 39:2) but when Satan is released after the thousand years, ALL the nations are gathered from the four corners of the earth for battle, in other words, these armies will come from all directions, not just from the north. I might add that at the battle of Armageddon and the outpouring of the wrath of God before the thousand years of the saints, I have shown elsewhere that the earth has been destroyed and all the people have been killed. One has to ask from where did the new nations of Gog and Magog spring from that are gathered against God for the last time when everyone had been killed off before?

It should also be noted too that there is no mention of Satan in the context of Ezekiel 38-39 but in Revelation 20:7 the context clearly places the battle at the end of the millennium with Satan as the primary character who is responsible of gathering the nations against Israel. In Ezekiel, it is God who puts "hooks in the jaws of Gog", like pulling fish out of water, and forces Gog to bring his whole army and his allies against Israel and Jerusalem so that Israel and the nations will KNOW Him when he has proved holy through their eyes.

Then there is the matter of what happens after the great battle. Ezekiel 39:11-12 states that after the battle for Israel, the dead will be buried for seven months. But, in the case of the battle described in Revelation 20:8-9 when everyone of all the nations are destroyed (again), we are told that everybody is cremated when, "fire came down from heaven and devoured them." Yet, Ezekiel tells us that after the battle with the nations that had attacked Israel with Gog from the land of Magog, when the Kingdom of God is established at Jerusalem, powerful nations are still intact to witness what he had done. And, from that day forward, the survivors of atheist Zionist Israel will know that God had done this and know that He is their God.
"I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them [on Gog and his allies]. From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God." (Ezekiel 39:21)

Clearly, it will be somewhat difficult for the nations to see God's glory if the nations are destroyed and all the people with them.

The author of the Apocalypse contradicts what Ezekiel and the prophets Zechariah and Micah say who agree that afterwards the existing powerful nations will go to Jerusalem, to have their
disputes adjudicated by God through Christ, and that God's laws will bring about a world of peace. This is what the Kingdom of God is all about. It is this kingdom for which Jesus said we should pray, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." (Luke 11:2; Matthew 6:10)

 

[FJH]

Act 27:23　 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,　
Act 27:24　 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.'　

I cannot accept your statement above, based on Acts 27:23-24.
The Apostle Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Paul was serving God and His Son at the same time.

There was an angel who brought him a message in Acts 27 in the same way that an angel brought a message to Philip in Acts 8:26.

This angel of God was speaking on behalf of Christ and his ministry, of which Paul was a representative.

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YOU SAY
The Apostle Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Paul was serving God and His Son at the same time.
MY ANSWER
I agree!
YOU SAY
There was an angel who brought him a message in Acts 27 in the same way that an angel brought a message to Philip in Acts 8:28.
MY ANSWER
BUT NOT FROM JESUS. THE ANGEL WAS FROM GOD IN WHO PAUL SAYS "of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me".

The angel does not claim to have been sent by Jesus. Instead, "God has granted you the lives of all who sail with you.’…".

The message comes from God not Jesus.

YOU SAY
This angel of God was speaking on behalf of Christ and his ministry, of which Paul was a representative.
MY ANSWER
"This angel of God was speaking on behalf of Christ" but the scripture does not say that. That is your interpretation which is not born out by the scriptures you quote. The truth of the matter is that the angel was conveying a message from God to Paul "For I believe God. It will be just as he said."

As for Acts 8:28 it was the Holy Spirit that Philip was moved to tell the Ethiopian about the scripture he was reading. And then Philip preached to the Ethipian the meaning of the scripture. THIS IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FROM RECEIVING A MESSAGE FROM JESUS.

 

[Major1]

Let us examine the most important genealogy in God’s Word. It begins with Abraham and ends with Christ. Based on the words of Paul in Galatians 3:16, this chapter reveals the promise made to Abraham that through his seed, Jesus Christ, all the nations would be blessed.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

In chapter 3 of the same book John the Baptist tells those of his time not to put their faith in being the seed of Abraham.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Later in the book of Matthew we find out who the heir to the land of Israel really is. He would pay the purchase price in His own Blood at Calvary.

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.


The leadership of the nation of Israel pronounced their own punishment for killing the heir when asked by Christ what should be done in this situation. He also revealed the kingdom of God would be taken from them and would be given to a nation to bring forth fruit.

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Peter reveals this nation who would accept the Chief Cornerstone.


1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

If one merely quotes the scripture above, the charge of “Replacement Theology” often comes from those who are attempting to hold onto their Two Peoples of God doctrine. Their charge often sounds something like the following…

“The Gentile Church has not replaced Israel.”

We would most certainly agree, since the Church as a whole has never been a “Gentile Church”. It began on the Day of Pentecost as a Church made up almost entirely of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite Christians several years later. Paul makes it clear in Romans 11:1 that God has not rejected the remnant of Israelites who place their faith in His Son, in the same way 7,000 Israelites would not bow down to Baal.



Who is actually promoting a form of “Replacement Theology”, through the following methods of replacement.

1. Replace the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into One Olive tree, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

2. Replace the One Seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

3. Replace the children of the Promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh.

4. Replace the word “so” in Romans 11:26, with the word “then”.

5. Replace the true “heir” in Matthew chapter 21, who is the true owner of the land, with those who reject Him as the Chief Cornerstone.

6. Replace the covenant confirmed by Christ in Daniel 9:27, with a treaty broken by an antichrist not found in the chapter, by adding a “gap” not mentioned either.


Race is not a factor in the New Covenant. We find Timothy making a statement which reveals that genealogy is not important during his time.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.



Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29　 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Above, Paul makes it clear that we are Abraham's seed and inherit the promise, through faith in Christ.)　


We must ask ourselves the following question…

Is there now any difference between a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest, and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the modern nation of Israel?

Based on the words of the New Testament, they both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.



Do we find Two separate Peoples of God with Two separate Plans in the words of Christ, found below?

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.



Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The modern Church must keep our focus on the Gospel of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13 and found specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The only way to get into the fold above is by being “Born Again” through faith in Christ. It cannot come from immersion in water, and all bloodlines of people now come into the fold in the same way. According to Hebrews 13:20, the New Blood Covenant is “everlasting”. The Blood-bought Grace of the Lamb will not end before the Second Coming of Christ, based on Revelation 12:11.


As for "Preterism" the disciples asked two questions and Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse, as revealed by Luke 21:20-28.

1. When will the temple be destroyed?

2. What will be the sign of your Second Coming?

That would make Jesus a "partial-Preterist", since He did not return to earth in 70 AD. He remained seated at the Father's right hand.

He will return to make all things right at His Second Coming, at some point in the future.

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That is a really long post. I will be shorter.

Romans 11:1-2 says:
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

The biggest problem with this replacement theology that I see is that, in order to make it work, proponents have to spiritualize parts of the Scriptures, saying that they are not speaking literally, but only figuratively.

Personally, I am not smart enough to tell God I know more than He has already told us.

 

[BABerean2]

That is a really long post. I will be shorter.

Romans 11:1-2 says:
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

The biggest problem with this replacement theology that I see is that, in order to make it work, proponents have to spiritualize parts of the Scriptures, saying that they are not speaking literally, but only figuratively.

Personally, I am not smart enough to tell God I know more than He has already told us.

When two trees are grafted together, neither tree is replaced.

Paul was an Israelite. We know that he accepted Christ as his savior.

God has not cast away those Israelites that have accepted God's Son.

However, the opposite is also true.

1Jn 2:22　 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.　
1Jn 2:23　 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.　


In Romans 11 Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church. Paul provides no path of salvation outside of being grafted back into the Olive Tree. There is no Plan B found in the chapter.


The New Covenant Church began on the Day of Pentecost with about 3,000 Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later. The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.


Paul said the promise made to Abraham was made to only one seed.

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.　


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