Discussion Truth is Truth

[Farine]

This discussion is posted here in the Spirit Filled /Charismatic Forum quite on purpose. The thought behind such a choice is that there is a common acceptance that God still speaks in our day. If this post was placed in the Controversial Christianity Forum, that thought would be batted back and forth distracting from this observation.

It should not matter which messenger God sends.

We have gathered truth together in various creeds and prayers. We do not gather each other. If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?

 

[Geralt]

anyone can claim they speak truth, that's ok its a free country.

but truth you hear, or claims for truth are only accepted by one's self as 'real truth' if you accept it as having 'authority' over you, before you agree or believe it is truth for you.

and authority is NOT inherent in titles or positions or claims of authority by man or their systems. as Christians, we do NOT believe every word that comes from any wannabee dressed in white garments claiming he is a prophet, etc.. but always qualify it with reference to God's word.

for in the final analysis -God's word is truth as revealed in His written revelation (scripture) has the authority that qualifies truth - this is what BINDS OUR CONSCIENCE.

i mean even the bereans do not believe any words that come out of Paul simply because he is an apostle, but Paul allows them to verify his preaching by what is written in scripture. Acts 17:11
​

This discussion is posted here in the Spirit Filled /Charismatic Forum quite on purpose. The thought behind such a choice is that there is a common acceptance that God still speaks in our day. If this post was placed in the Controversial Christianity Forum, that thought would be batted back and forth distracting from this observation.

It should not matter which messenger God sends.

We have gathered truth together in various creeds and prayers. We do not gather each other. If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?

 

[Farine]

anyone can claim they speak truth, that's ok its a free country.

but truth you hear, or claims for truth are only accepted by one's self as 'real truth' if you accept it as having 'authority' over you, before you agree or believe it is truth for you.

and authority is NOT inherent in titles or positions or claims of authority by man or their systems. as Christians, we do NOT believe every word that comes from any wannabee dressed in white garments claiming he is a prophet, etc.. but always qualify it with reference to God's word.

for in the final analysis -God's word is truth as revealed in His written revelation (scripture) has the authority that qualifies truth - this is what BINDS OUR CONSCIENCE.

i mean even the bereans do not believe any words that come out of Paul simply because he is an apostle, but Paul allows them to verify his preaching by what is written in scripture. Acts 17:11
​

Thank you Geralt for being the first to respond to this Discussion. This response is perfect. You've eloquently and briefly summarized the whole matter in one stroke. Before I address that, there's the product of your life here.. the time you spent to read and consider what was offered. Time is precious. There's the considerate and thoughtful way you organized your answer. And then there's you. If all that happens here is an exchange of mental and emotional consideration, I haven't enjoyed and supported and loved on you. I can and have clicked on the 'LIKE' button. That's something at least. Hopefully, in these words, rather than the dry, surface connection of minds brushing by each other, you feel the bubbling enthusiasm I have for you as a person.

Now onto what you wrote.

The point of the Title "Truth is Truth" is a specific situation when the speaker IS speaking the truth and gets rejected anyway. I don't mind discussing the situation about what happens to the speaker if the message is false. You've added an extra element of whether the speaker is in a position of authority.

I'd like to ask you a follow up question for you to even expand upon your thoughts. What if a 9 year old child walked up to you with a message from the Lord? I assume you would evaluate the child's thoughts as you would any other person. That child could not be an authority being a minor. What would you do in that situation?

The reason why I said your response is perfect is because this is the near universal response. This is what the overwhelming majority thinks and reacts and does and believes. Only the message is responded to. Only the message is interacted with. Write me back. I'm hoping this becomes a conversation.

 

[unfinishedclay]

If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?

Morning Farine. If I can contribute what I see from your post...
A lot of times, the messenger isn't received. Jesus said that a prophet isn't even welcome in his own hometown. He Himself was rejected when He gave the message of His gospel to listeners - then and now. His own followers had to learn over time to receive Him fully (like Peter rejecting the fact that Jesus would have to go to the cross/had to get rebuked big-time; John the Baptist questioning whether "we should look for another" in probably a state of discouragement in prison).

I think it's the same among us as believers. Sometimes, we have to journey through fully receiving each other when we deliver the message of the gospel among one another. I teach children in Sunday School. Very challenging to teach 1st and 2nd graders, sometimes pre-teens (most challenging). I'm in a pretty unique position trying to be received by them with a open-discussion/Q&A message with almost ever session. I certainly prefer the challenging questions over the attitudes. lol
And some of them have messages during the discussions and have to be received if those messages are true from the Word.

I don't know if my response was in the ballpark of what you were looking for. But that's my experience I reflected on from your OP.

 

[Farine]

Morning Farine. If I can contribute what I see from your post...
A lot of times, the messenger isn't received. .....I think it's the same among us as believers. Sometimes, we have to journey through fully receiving each other when we deliver the message of the gospel among one another..... But that's my experience I reflected on from your OP.

Don't misunderstand my abbreviating your quote in response. When read this, I was smiling at your whole response. Hello Unfinished! I've taught Sunday School too. Your Sunday School reference brought back memories. If one is in pursuit of God, one must inquire of Him in all the places He goes. A place like this, where there are certainly more than the quorum of two or three gathered in His Name, certainly qualifies for Jesus to be in our midst. Following that thought out to its conclusion is that we will experience Jesus as we interact with each other. The grace you offered in saying, " A lot of times, the messenger isn't received. " is not only comfort to me, but also to the many people who will read this. Thank you! You go further than that.

That's something a lot of Believers do. We see the surface considerations and respond. The grace in us works deeper to add more than the basics. Unfinished, there's a lot of grace in you. It shows. Thank you.

To answer your question, you are definitely in the ballpark. Reflecting on the journey is that God supplies for the messenger what the people left out. Otherwise, the messenger would be deflated permanently and no longer available to be sent. There may be some people who feel deflated because they did what God pressed on them to say or do and didn't get the response they expected.

You mentioned both challenges and joys of this journey. I have one to share in response to yours. I was teaching (could say babysitting) three and four year olds. One of the interesting things about that age is that you can ask them to draw a picture of things they have not experienced. For example, after a simple lesson and explanation of Heaven, they started drawing pictures. Lots of yellow crayons. Light. Good. Angels. Clouds. Rainbows. Then there was one little boy going for the black crayon. He was laying down thick, waxy marks tightly grouped together. Uh-oh. When I asked him about his drawing this was his stunning response. "I'm drawing the hole that Jesus put all my sins in." So there you go.

 

[unfinishedclay]

"I'm drawing the hole that Jesus put all my sins in." So there you go.

LOL love it!

 

[unfinishedclay]

Reflecting on the journey is that God supplies for the messenger what the people left out. Otherwise, the messenger would be deflated permanently and no longer available to be sent. There may be some people who feel deflated because they did what God pressed on them to say or do and didn't get the response they expected.

This!
I've been persecuted by unbelievers and feel fueled to press forward. Sometimes the persecution can make us shout joyfully for the journey. BUT, when the persecution comes from fellow people of God or the response was not what we would have expected, it could leave us feeling deflated. That's where the challenge is. But the Lord does give greater grace in those instances.

When I read how Elijah ran from Jezebel to a cave where God had to restore him, feed him, and gear him back up for the journey, I can also see how we can do that to one another - even unintentionally. That's why I never want to EVER mislabel any of my brethren as being like Jezebel because even Paul and Barnabas stressed each other out to the point of having to separate from one another in order to continue a ministry and mission the Holy Ghost had set for the 2 of them together. The beautiful part with us in the faith - even stressing each other out when our unmet expectations lead to incredible discouragement and even to sometimes the sharp contention mentioned in Acts 15 - ...the LOVE is still there. Hallelujah!

 

[Farine]

This!
I've been persecuted by unbelievers and feel fueled to press forward. Sometimes the persecution can make us shout joyfully for the journey. BUT, when the persecution comes from fellow people of God or the response was not what we would have expected, it could leave us feeling deflated. That's where the challenge is. But the Lord does give greater grace in those instances.

Yes, yes and yes! One of the hopes that I have for this discussion is to be transparent so that others who read this will be encouraged. That you have experienced persecution and know the greater grace is joint testimony that discouragement need not be the last word.

One of the most terrifying and discouraging moments of my life was a project that I definitely knew was from the Lord. I looked right in the eyes of church committee members and saw the raw fear expressed there. This was such a tame outreach. Such a gentle step for them. They needed members. They needed money. They needed to experience this. The fear was greater so the opportunity passed them. The crushing weight of all the inquisition on top of the driving push in my spirit to produce the outreach was terrible.

I needed an indoor space to present the material. When I came across this Methodist pastor, he listened to me intently for fifteen minutes. "The Master has need of it." He said. "You may use our space." And six months of multiple committee meetings was done. In the end, that was the church that received the blessing.

When I read how Elijah ran from Jezebel to a cave where God had to restore him, feed him, and gear him back up for the journey, I can also see how we can do that to one another - even unintentionally. That's why I never want to EVER mislabel any of my brethren as being like Jezebel because even Paul and Barnabas stressed each other out to the point of having to separate from one another in order to continue a ministry and mission the Holy Ghost had set for the 2 of them together. The beautiful part with us in the faith - even stressing each other out when our unmet expectations lead to incredible discouragement and even to sometimes the sharp contention mentioned in Acts 15 - ...the LOVE is still there. Hallelujah!

Both stories are so accurate. Thank you!

 

[unfinishedclay]

"The Master has need of it." He said. "You may use our space." And six months of multiple committee meetings was done. In the end, that was the church that received the blessing.

Amen.

 

[Geralt]

the word of God when spoken is not qualified by the medium used. i would gladly listen heartily to a child who speaks the truth of scripture, rather than somebody with credentials and yet contradicts scripture or the gospel. whether it be a child, a donkey or a burning bush. even God sometimes uses unbelievers speak God's word in an implied way to prick the hypocrisy in our hearts. our only response is humility, because we recognize NOT the authority of the medium but the authority of the word of God.

in fact prophets of the old testament who live like nomads, isolated and homeless people are the perfect medium used by God, for their hearers will not have any reason to look at their personal status in comparison with themselves, but listen only to what God has said through them without any personal vested interests whatsoever.

we should not be dazzled by men and the standards they have set to define truth (like credentials, officially registered, titles, positions of power, age, etc..) this is like compartmentalizing the work of the holy spirit to operate within man's standards. but the opposite is actually true, the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, it comes and goes where nobody expects it. on similar lines can be said of the preaching/teaching of the word of God. ​

Thank you Geralt for being the first to respond to this Discussion. This response is perfect. You've eloquently and briefly summarized the whole matter in one stroke. Before I address that, there's the product of your life here.. the time you spent to read and consider what was offered. Time is precious. There's the considerate and thoughtful way you organized your answer. And then there's you. If all that happens here is an exchange of mental and emotional consideration, I haven't enjoyed and supported and loved on you. I can and have clicked on the 'LIKE' button. That's something at least. Hopefully, in these words, rather than the dry, surface connection of minds brushing by each other, you feel the bubbling enthusiasm I have for you as a person.

Now onto what you wrote.

The point of the Title "Truth is Truth" is a specific situation when the speaker IS speaking the truth and gets rejected anyway. I don't mind discussing the situation about what happens to the speaker if the message is false. You've added an extra element of whether the speaker is in a position of authority.

I'd like to ask you a follow up question for you to even expand upon your thoughts. What if a 9 year old child walked up to you with a message from the Lord? I assume you would evaluate the child's thoughts as you would any other person. That child could not be an authority being a minor. What would you do in that situation?

The reason why I said your response is perfect is because this is the near universal response. This is what the overwhelming majority thinks and reacts and does and believes. Only the message is responded to. Only the message is interacted with. Write me back. I'm hoping this becomes a conversation.

 

[unfinishedclay]

the word of God when spoken is not qualified by the medium used. i would gladly listen heartily to a child who speaks the truth of scripture, rather than somebody with credentials and yet contradicts scripture or the gospel. whether it be a child, a donkey or a burning bush. even God sometimes uses unbelievers speak God's word in an implied way to prick the hypocrisy in our hearts. our only response is humility, because we recognize NOT the authority of the medium but the authority of the word of God.

in fact prophets of the old testament who live like nomads, isolated and homeless people are the perfect medium used by God, for their hearers will not have any reason to look at their personal status in comparison with themselves, but listen only to what God has said through them without any personal vested interests whatsoever.

we should not be dazzled by men and the standards they have set to define truth (like credentials, officially registered, titles, positions of power, age, etc..) this is like compartmentalizing the work of the holy spirit to operate within man's standards. but the opposite is actually true, the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, it comes and goes where nobody expects it. on similar lines can be said of the preaching/teaching of the word of God. ​

Amen. I agree.

 

[Farine]

the word of God when spoken is not qualified by the medium used. i would gladly listen heartily to a child who speaks the truth of scripture, rather than somebody with credentials and yet contradicts scripture or the gospel. whether it be a child, a donkey or a burning bush. even God sometimes uses unbelievers speak God's word in an implied way to prick the hypocrisy in our hearts. our only response is humility, because we recognize NOT the authority of the medium but the authority of the word of God.

in fact prophets of the old testament who live like nomads, isolated and homeless people are the perfect medium used by God, for their hearers will not have any reason to look at their personal status in comparison with themselves, but listen only to what God has said through them without any personal vested interests whatsoever.

we should not be dazzled by men and the standards they have set to define truth (like credentials, officially registered, titles, positions of power, age, etc..) this is like compartmentalizing the work of the holy spirit to operate within man's standards. but the opposite is actually true, the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, it comes and goes where nobody expects it. on similar lines can be said of the preaching/teaching of the word of God. ​

Amen! Well said! From what I can easily tell from your testimony, you've had the experiences of God using whomever He desires. It's that common experience that really helps bring people together. If you care to relate one of those experiences, that would be most welcome. I hope you will feel the respect i have for you. Of course, your time and interests may pull you into other discussions. Please check back.

 

[Farine]

Matthew 10:16-20 NIV

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. .."

 

[unfinishedclay]

Matthew 10:16-20 NIV

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. .."

Amen

 

[Farine]

A remark from Jeremiah, The Prophet to the Lord .. and the Lord's response (Jeremiah 15:10-11)

Alas, my mother, that you gave me birth, a man with whom the whole land strives and contends! I have neither lent nor borrowed, yet everyone curses me.
11 The Lord said, “Surely I will deliver you for a good purpose; surely I will make your enemies plead with you in times of disaster and times of distress...."

 

[Farine]

A Psalm for when being mistreated on His Mission feels personal...

Psalm 2 (NIV)

Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,

“Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.”

The One enthroned in heaven laughs;the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,

“I have installed my king on Zion,my holy mountain.”

I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

Ask me,and I will make the nations your inheritance,the ends of the earth your possession.
You will break them with a rod of iron you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear and celebrate his rule with trembling. Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

[Farine]

Job's account of persecution is on the highest levels-- Satan actually appears before God to legally acquire access to Job.
Michael Card performed an incredible song about the Book of Job. The YouTube video is almost ten minutes long but well worth it.

There is one stanza that is particularly relevant to all Believers who walk closely with the LORD.

The Video is here:

 

[Freedom Now]

Satan actually appears before God to legally acquire access to Job.

Not sure what version of the script you are reading.....

but the versions I have read

all state that it was the LORD that mentioned Job to Satan....


Which version are you reading?

 

[Farine]

Ok.. First of all, Freedom, I'm glad you're looking at this discussion. If you read the original post, it was talking about ...

"It should not matter which messenger God sends.

We have gathered truth together in various creeds and prayers. We do not gather each other. If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?"

The premise is that in times when an authenticated, reliable messenger goes to do the will of God, a lot of unpleasant responses can be received. The point of mentioning Job is just another example of a truly righteous person being persecuted.

I know this problem exists in the Body of Christ. You want to debate particulars about how I referenced Job's persecution.. fine.. I may be wrong slightly. I"m not incorrect that Job was defined by God as truly righteous. The book of Job clearly displays his distress. . The point of encouraging legitimate servants of the Most High God is my goal. While you are here, I should ask... have you been mistreated while doing Kingdom business?

 

[Freedom Now]

Ok.. First of all, Freedom, I'm glad you're looking at this discussion. If you read the original post, it was talking about ...

"It should not matter which messenger God sends.

We have gathered truth together in various creeds and prayers. We do not gather each other. If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?"

The premise is that in times when an authenticated, reliable messenger goes to do the will of God, a lot of unpleasant responses can be received. The point of mentioning Job is just another example of a truly righteous person being persecuted.

I know this problem exists in the Body of Christ. You want to debate particulars about how I referenced Job's persecution.. fine.. I may be wrong slightly. I"m not incorrect that Job was defined by God as truly righteous. The book of Job clearly displays his distress. . The point of encouraging legitimate servants of the Most High God is my goal. While you are here, I should ask... have you been mistreated while doing Kingdom business?

Where do you get the idea that what happened to Job was persecution?