Trust

[seeingeyes]

Hello all,

I've been participating in a few of these threads lately and I notice that things like "empirical evidence" and "objective morality" come up a lot. Everyone wants absolutes.

But the more human element gets overlooked.

It seems to me that there are many here who are atheist that started as Christian (born into Christian households, for example) who now put forth many intellectual arguments. But their escape from Christianity was not catalyzed by intellectual arguments, it was kicked-off by Christians acting in untrustworthy ways. The intellectual arguments came second. (Let's face it, if the love that Jesus preached had been truly shown to you from the time of your birth till now, your outlook would be quite different.)

Likewise, there are Christians here who give many intellectual arguments, but whose beliefs were not catalyzed by intellect, but who were drawn to the faith by trustworthy Christians and later found certain intellectual arguments to bolster their belief. (Let's face it, if the love of Christ had not been demonstrated to you by others, you wouldn't be preaching this stuff.)

So the question of faith comes down, not to the question of "what can be proven" but rather, "who do I trust".

Those who left "the faith" because their questions were ignored or belittled or chastised were right to do so. Science welcomes the curious with open arms even when Christians do not. They have been accepted elsewhere, and the love of Christ has been shown to them by foreigners since the children wouldn't do it. God's hand is on this, no doubt. (Lord have mercy.)

And the Christians who entered in because of the kindness shown to them by God and his children who then turn around and blast insults and threats and condescension to those who have not yet entered are in for a world of hurt. Jesus spoke specifically of such who stand and block the door to the kingdom.

I believe in God, the Father that Jesus spoke of, no longer because of "proofs" or "inerrancy" or even blind faith, but because I have found Jesus to be trustworthy. He speaks with wisdom and strength. Terrorizing the righteous and comforting the sinner, flipping over tables in the temple, and shaking hands with lepers. He is completely bass-ackwards to the world, and so is the Father that he described. I wanna be like that when I grow up.

So who do you trust?

 

[Syd the Human]

Hello all,

I've been participating in a few of these threads lately and I notice that things like "empirical evidence" and "objective morality" come up a lot. Everyone wants absolutes.

But the more human element gets overlooked.

It seems to me that there are many here who are atheist that started as Christian (born into Christian households, for example) who now put forth many intellectual arguments. But their escape from Christianity was not catalyzed by intellectual arguments, it was kicked-off by Christians acting in untrustworthy ways. The intellectual arguments came second. (Let's face it, if the love that Jesus preached had been truly shown to you from the time of your birth till now, your outlook would be quite different.)

That wasn't my experience at all. In fact, I've never had a negative experience with the Christian people I know. At one point when I was going to church they were the main reason I went. The Sunday school I went to had to be catered to a younger audience so it was not of much benefit to me and the pastor did not really keep my attention so I just read the Bible through his sermons, which I could have done at home.

Likewise, there are Christians here who give many intellectual arguments, but whose beliefs were not catalyzed by intellect, but who were drawn to the faith by trustworthy Christians and later found certain intellectual arguments to bolster their belief. (Let's face it, if the love of Christ had not been demonstrated to you by others, you wouldn't be preaching this stuff.)

So the question of faith comes down, not to the question of "what can be proven" but rather, "who do I trust".

Those who left "the faith" because their questions were ignored or belittled or chastised were right to do so. Science welcomes the curious with open arms even when Christians do not. They have been accepted elsewhere, and the love of Christ has been shown to them by foreigners since the children wouldn't do it. God's hand is on this, no doubt. (Lord have mercy.)

And the Christians who entered in because of the kindness shown to them by God and his children who then turn around and blast insults and threats and condescension to those who have not yet entered are in for a world of hurt. Jesus spoke specifically of such who stand and block the door to the kingdom.

I believe in God, the Father that Jesus spoke of, no longer because of "proofs" or "inerrancy" or even blind faith, but because I have found Jesus to be trustworthy. He speaks with wisdom and strength. Terrorizing the righteous and comforting the sinner, flipping over tables in the temple, and shaking hands with lepers. He is completely bass-ackwards to the world, and so is the Father that he described. I wanna be like that when I grow up.

So who do you trust?

Although this could make a person biased towards certain things, I don't think it undermines the validity of the arguments presented from either side. I could be biased in a certain topic, but if my argument is valid it is not less valid just because I have a bias towards that topic.

 

[seeingeyes]

That wasn't my experience at all. In fact, I've never had a negative experience with the Christian people I know. At one point when I was going to church they were the main reason I went. The Sunday school I went to had to be catered to a younger audience so it was not of much benefit to me and the pastor did not really keep my attention so I just read the Bible through his sermons, which I could have done at home.

I'm glad you were not harmed by hypocrites, I know too many that have been. But look at your experience, if what Jesus had to say is even remotely true, then how could one not be riveted by it? Jesus certainly had no problem keeping people on their toes.

Although this could make a person biased towards certain things, I don't think it undermines the validity of the arguments presented from either side. I could be biased in a certain topic, but if my argument is valid it is not less valid just because I have a bias towards that topic.

That's certainly true, but you can't reason a person out of a position he wasn't reasoned into.

So who do you trust?

 

[Syd the Human]

I'm glad you were not harmed by hypocrites, I know too many that have been. But look at your experience, if what Jesus had to say is even remotely true, then how could one not be riveted by it? Jesus certainly had no problem keeping people on their toes.

It's just the way he told it. I preferred to read straight from the text and form my own ideas about it. That's how I am with most things actually.

That's certainly true, but you can't reason a person out of a position he wasn't reasoned into.

True

So who do you trust?

Do you mean for certain things or overall? Like with my life or just in general?

 

[znr]

I'm only Christian because I believe in Jesus' claim to be the son of God, and because of several very close encounters. But were it not for that I'd be atheist. Rarely I've met a Christian who gives a damn, most are as self serving as anyone else. I'm disappointed and disgusted by Christians.

 

[seeingeyes]

It's just the way he told it. I preferred to read straight from the text and form my own ideas about it. That's how I am with most things actually.

I know that feeling.

Do you mean for certain things or overall? Like with my life or just in general?

Overall.

Do you know someone you would trust with your life (or your bank card? )

 

[seeingeyes]

I'm only Christian because I believe in Jesus' claim to be the son of God, and because of several very close encounters. But were it not for that I'd be atheist. Rarely I've met a Christian who gives a damn, most are as self serving as anyone else. I'm disappointed and disgusted by Christians.

So you trust Jesus and a few others (some Christian, some not)?

 

[znr]

I trust no Christian. Jesus, well, actually maybe not. Not when it comes down to basic human needs. God does let some people suffer. A long time. What's to trust?

So you trust Jesus and a few others (some Christian, some not)?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It seems to me that there are many here who are atheist that started as Christian (born into Christian households, for example) who now put forth many intellectual arguments. But their escape from Christianity was not catalyzed by intellectual arguments, it was kicked-off by Christians acting in untrustworthy ways. The intellectual arguments came second. (Let's face it, if the love that Jesus preached had been truly shown to you from the time of your birth till now, your outlook would be quite different.)

Nope, not even close. The fact that I realized that I had no good reason to believe came first. Other Christians had nothing to do with it.

 

[seeingeyes]

Nope, not even close. The fact that I realized that I had no good reason to believe came first. Other Christians had nothing to do with it.

Who do you trust?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Who do you trust?

Uh... my girlfriend...

... why?

 

[seeingeyes]

Uh... my girlfriend...

... why?

Because "faith" is trust. You are more likely to believe something that someone trustworthy (such as your girlfriend) tells you, then believe something that raving internet loons tell you.

That seems fairly obvious, but there are a lot of folks around CF that don't seem to know this yet.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Because "faith" is trust. You are more likely to believe something that someone trustworthy (such as your girlfriend) tells you, then believe something that raving internet loons tell you.

That seems fairly obvious, but there are a lot of folks around CF that don't seem to know this yet.

I have no idea where you're going with this. What does this have to do with my disbelief in a god exactly?

 

[seeingeyes]

I have no idea where you're going with this. What does this have to do with my disbelief in a god exactly?

Boiled down, I suppose I'm calling out Christians to stop demanding that others trust in Christ, when they themselves are not the least bit trustworthy. Intellectual proofs of any kind are secondary (if that).

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Boiled down, I suppose I'm calling out Christians to stop demanding that others trust in Christ, when they themselves are not the least bit trustworthy. Intellectual proofs of any kind are secondary (if that).

Cool.

 

[znr]

I've been trying to say as much, but my brethren ignore. I thought I was alone in this pit. Guess not.

What I don't really get is how it's so hard to empathize with non belief. People forget when they didn't believe. Anyway, I'm typing on a phone so I can't express myself in my usual long winded but thoughtful manner, so I'll sum up what I see. Hypocrites. I see hypocrites. Which is okay, we're all that at times, but when it's not correctable due to pride and stubbornness, that's a big problem!

Boiled down, I suppose I'm calling out Christians to stop demanding that others trust in Christ, when they themselves are not the least bit trustworthy. Intellectual proofs of any kind are secondary (if that).

 

[seeingeyes]

I've been trying to say as much, but my brethren ignore. I thought I was alone in this pit. Guess not.

What I don't really get is how it's so hard to empathize with non belief. People forget when they didn't believe. Anyway, I'm typing on a phone so I can't express myself in my usual long winded but thoughtful manner, so I'll sum up what I see. Hypocrites. I see hypocrites. Which is okay, we're all that at times, but when it's not correctable due to pride and stubbornness, that's a big problem!

In my own case, I never "didn't believe". I was raised with Christianity, and I was a white washed tomb until God in His grace smacked the paint off me. So I speak from experience when I say that the lack of empathy stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of God and how he works. It stems from fear. It stems from arrogance.

But none of this is new. From the beginning there have been those who seek their own righteousness instead of seeking God's, and it was to those that Jesus turned his wrath. The path is narrow, as he put it, and few find it. That path is far, far narrower than most Christians know. Only one man fits down it, and that is Christ himself.

So take heart, sister. You're not alone. I see you.

 

[parsley]

I think Christians often answer a question instead of answering the person. I do that. I'm not a gushy person, so come across cold sometimes, and I appreciate when someone else does the warm encouraging stuff. We seem to have fewer of those here lately.

I probably do harm to people by answering the philosophy end of a question, but it's just out of matter-of-factness. If someone asked me about the Sabbath, I would show scriptures, but that's not always how I approach the decision myself. So we end up sounding cold and harsh.

But yes I get discouraged too by people, from all walks of life. Many are fearful for their futures these days, and scrambling to get ahead while there's still that option. I don't think that's what you're referring to, but it does make everyone more jumpy and rude.

On trust... I came home from a friend&family event this weekend feeling frustrated that I defended family members I don't usually agree with... I go up and down with trusting them and usually can distance myself enough, but in these more formal times everyone smiles and "likes" each other. Then they talk about each other in the car on the way home. (Or on the forum!) People bond over being fickle, self-seeking and destructively gossipy.

 

[seeingeyes]

I think Christians often answer a question instead of answering the person. I do that. I'm not a gushy person, so come across cold sometimes, and I appreciate when someone else does the warm encouraging stuff. We seem to have fewer of those here lately.

I probably do harm to people by answering the philosophy end of a question, but it's just out of matter-of-factness. If someone asked me about the Sabbath, I would show scriptures, but that's not always how I approach the decision myself. So we end up sounding cold and harsh.

I've never gotten "coldness" from your posts at all. I would say that you post practical information in a helpful way.

My posts are more "hot" than "warm" depending on who I'm responding to.

But yes I get discouraged too by people, from all walks of life. Many are fearful for their futures these days, and scrambling to get ahead while there's still that option. I don't think that's what you're referring to, but it does make everyone more jumpy and rude.

On trust... I came home from a friend&family event this weekend feeling frustrated that I defended family members I don't usually agree with... I go up and down with trusting them and usually can distance myself enough, but in these more formal times everyone smiles and "likes" each other. Then they talk about each other in the car on the way home. (Or on the forum!) People bond over being fickle, self-seeking and destructively gossipy.

Ah, yes, that's rough. Makes you wonder what they say about you when you're not around.

All you can do is let your light shine and let the chips fall where they may (if you don't mind me mixing metaphors). It can get old being the one trustworthy person in a group, but the alternative is...

 

[quatona]

It seems to me that there are many here who are atheist that started as Christian (born into Christian households, for example) who now put forth many intellectual arguments. But their escape from Christianity was not catalyzed by intellectual arguments, it was kicked-off by Christians acting in untrustworthy ways. The intellectual arguments came second. (Let's face it, if the love that Jesus preached had been truly shown to you from the time of your birth till now, your outlook would be quite different.)

So who do you trust?

When it comes to having the correct answer to the so-called existential questions? Nobody, I guess.