Trump says he can declassify documents just "by thinking about it".

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durangodawood

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We've gone over, in about a page ago, the falsehood of Obama keeping records. Yes, they are in a "defunct furniture warehouse" but they were sent there and are under the control of the National Archives (NARA), who packed the records from the White House. (SE) -- you've been shown and given multiple links that this is false.....
Perhaps responding to people who arent motivated by truth just isnt worth it.
 
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inquiring mind

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The reason there is a process is so that these wand waves can be documented as having occurred. Otherwise you are claiming that ex-presidents can declassify documents after leaving office.
Yes, on the surface that appears to be the wise thing. Has it been necessary, apparently many think not. After all, how many times has this happened to ex-presidents? I still think it was something other than nuclear documents they were looking for.
 
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adrianmonk

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Has it been necessary, apparently many think not. After all, how many times has this happened to ex-presidents? I still think it was something other than nuclear documents they were looking for.

Other presidents have not taken classified material with them after leaving office. They were looking for documents still deemed classified, nuclear or not. They gave Trump a LOT of time to return these documents. If he had just returned them, he would not be in this situation today.

Yes, on the surface that appears to be the wise thing.
Not just a wise thing, but a necessity. Imagine if a news article came out tomorrow that Obama has classified documents after leaving office and he says "Yea, but I declassified it and no, I did not document it". If Obama had not actually declassified it, he now has the power to do so retroactively after leaving office.

I like Obama, but I would be horrified hearing that. And so should you.
 
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adrianmonk

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Round robin here, but I think I read that the attorneys don't want to do that right now. I don't have a clue why not.

That in itself should puzzle you. If you were charged and have evidence that could clear you, why would you not state it under oath and ask the court for the case against you to be dismissed ?

From what I have read, the lawyers claimed that it would be revealing their defense if their client is indicted. Which makes no sense. If the documents were declassified, then that would make the government's case invalid.

But doing so requires Trump, Kash Patel and his attorneys to state it under oath. Which could mean sanctions and jail time if they were proven to have perjured making that claim.

Claiming it on TV carries no legal repercussions, which is why you hear it on media/social media, but not in a court filing.
 
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Valletta

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Yes the President has wide latitude to declassify documents but it only makes rational sense to me as a layperson that there would be records somewhere that would record which were declassified. I simply can't believe the claim I'm being asked to believe at this point that a President can declassify anything just by thinking about it with no paper tail......Wouldn't that be a nightmare for national security?
National security is a nightmare, you would be shocked at the enormity of failures of the intelligence community. A president has authority to declassify and more authority beyond that, according to his advisors they told Joe Biden not to pull the military out of Afghanistan before the civilians but he did it anyways.
 
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LizaMarie

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National security is a nightmare, you would be shocked at the enormity of failures of the intelligence community. A president has authority to declassify and more authority beyond that, according to his advisors they told Joe Biden not to pull the military out of Afghanistan before the civilians but he did it anyways.
From an article I read recently: yes Presidents have sweeping authority to declassify documents(while in office.)But there are memos written, drafted by WH lawyers which the President would then sign. Relevant agencies are consulted then the document is marked declassified by X date. So this is what I've been trying to say, if this happened with the ML documents we should be able to see this, a paper trail which could prove he declassified them.
Someone sitting there saying " I declassified them in my mind." with no supporting documents is not rational.
 
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helmut

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A page that just cites a lie from Trump's office without comment is no source I can trust.

“There are some people who argue that that case has been misinterpreted, and said that it doesn't actually give the president as much authority as later interpreters have said. But that's generally how courts have treated, though, is that the president has this very substantial authority and can just kind of wave a magic wand and make a document declassified if he chooses to do so," said Dunn.
I did not claim anything that contradicts that. I only pointed out that to "wave" the president has to speak (or write an order).

[EDIT: See also post #186.]

Why do you point what is off-topic to the question on declassification by just thinking?
 
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helmut

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National security is a nightmare, you would be shocked at the enormity of failures of the intelligence community. A president has authority to declassify and more authority beyond that, according to his advisors they told Joe Biden not to pull the military out of Afghanistan before the civilians but he did it anyways.
This was good for the national security of the USA, but very bad for the Afghans who worked with the NATO, or even with NGOs from the west.

So it is no example for what you wrote, but an example of unethical action by the USA.
 
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Valletta

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From an article I read recently: yes Presidents have sweeping authority to declassify documents(while in office.)But there are memos written, drafted by WH lawyers which the President would then sign. Relevant agencies are consulted then the document is marked declassified by X date. So this is what I've been trying to say, if this happened with the ML documents we should be able to see this, a paper trail which could prove he declassified them.
Someone sitting there saying " I declassified them in my mind." with no supporting documents is not rational.
You describe procedures that are often used, of course a president often consults before making any decision, but no law requires him to do so before declassification. Is a paper trail often left on presidential decisions? Yes often, but not always.
 
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helmut

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Is a paper trail often left on presidential decisions? Yes often, but not always.
Depends of the type of decision.

But declassification decisions will at least have one paper trace: The stamp "declassified" on the document.
 
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Yttrium

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You describe procedures that are often used, of course a president often consults before making any decision, but no law requires him to do so before declassification. Is a paper trail often left on presidential decisions? Yes often, but not always.

Once again, if there's no paper trail, how does anyone know it's declassified? All they have to go on are the markings on the document, which say it's classified.

The president declares something to be declassified. Minions scurry to record and mark things declassified. That way everyone knows it's declassified. This is not a difficult concept. If this hasn't been done, so the document is still marked classified, that means the president never declared it to be declassified. And an ex-president declaring that he declassified a document that's still marked classified is lying through his teeth.
 
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RDKirk

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He's making a point, the president decides what is classified and what is not and is not subject to a process his underlings impose on him. Joe just said that we would defend Taiwan if China attacked. That was classified information, Joe did not stamp documents involving U.S. strategy as declassified, so he is guilty of violation the Espionage Act, do you agree?

It's been open US policy for three quarters of a century to defend Taiwan from a mainland Communist attack.
 
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RDKirk

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Once again, if there's no paper trail, how does anyone know it's declassified? All they have to go on are the markings on the document, which say it's classified.

The president declares something to be declassified. Minions scurry to record and mark things declassified. That way everyone knows it's declassified. This is not a difficult concept. If this hasn't been done, so the document is still marked classified, that means the president never declared it to be declassified.

And that scurrying is fast and wide. I've been one of those minions. They don't want more than 24-48 hours to pass before every copy of presidentially declassified documents, wherever they may be, to have been re-marked accordingly.
 
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SimplyMe

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From the first link: "Kash Patel, who served as chief of staff for the acting defense secretary during the Trump administration, also claimed that Trump had declassified the documents."
I don't think you guys are reading.

But if no one is told, if there is no record, then per the government the documents are still Classified. Yes, if Trump were still President he could correct it but he is not President. As such, the documents are still Classified since the current President claims they are Classified (and he has the power to classify documents).
 
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RDKirk

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Well I have to admit that's a bridge too far.

I'm happy with a verbal declassification. That's good enough for me. But thinking something declassified? o_O:rolleyes:

Surprise verbal declassifications during press conferences have actually happened before...more than once. Not sure if those were intentional, but they're treated as though they are.
 
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RDKirk

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I don't want to confuse you too much with facts, but in California (and I suspect most other states) one is only required to mail in the DMV renewal papers with their payment by the time the previous registration expires.

In Texas, if it's still "in the system" or "in the mail" by the time the registration expires, you're on your own. You do get a receipt if you've paid online, though, and you can show the receipt to an officer.
 
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RDKirk

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I guess we all can believe what we want to. But as president, Trump could declassify anything for any reason. So if Trump said he "gave all classified information," then anything not given was declassified. Not my rules, but those are the facts.

The president cannot declassify information that has been classified by legislation. It's that "separation of powers" thing.
 
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RDKirk

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It doesn't matter if he declassified them or not. They still aren't HIS property to take with him when he leaves office. Also why would a private citizen need documents regarding nuclear secrets and human intelligence sources?

And I would point out that nuclear secrets and human intelligence sources are two types of information classified by Congressional legislation that the president cannot declassify.
 
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RDKirk

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You just don't get it. The president is the final authority when it comes to declassifying documents. It is literally impossible for him to commit espionage or leak classified information. He can literally do whatever he wants with whatever information for whatever reason.

I call Poe's Law on that post!
 
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