Trump expected to leave 'Open Skies' Treaty

[essentialsaltes]

The decision to leave the treaty -- which was signed in 1992 and went into effect in 2002 and allows 34 member states to conduct unarmed surveillance flights over one another's territories -- could affect the American military's ability to conduct aerial surveillance of Russia and other member countries. The treaty is used to help verify arms control agreements, according to the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency, part of the Defense Department.
According to the State Department, the treaty "is designed to enhance mutual understanding and confidence by giving all participants, regardless of size, a direct role in gathering information through aerial imaging on military forces and activities of concern to them."

Who needs aerial intelligence, when you have a gut feeling?

 

[zephcom]

The decision to leave the treaty -- which was signed in 1992 and went into effect in 2002 and allows 34 member states to conduct unarmed surveillance flights over one another's territories -- could affect the American military's ability to conduct aerial surveillance of Russia and other member countries. The treaty is used to help verify arms control agreements, according to the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency, part of the Defense Department.
According to the State Department, the treaty "is designed to enhance mutual understanding and confidence by giving all participants, regardless of size, a direct role in gathering information through aerial imaging on military forces and activities of concern to them."

Who needs aerial intelligence, when you have a gut feeling?

The gut sees all and knows all.

 

[Kentonio]

The gut sees all and knows all.

Well his gut is certainly big enough to make that plausible at least.

 

[Arcangl86]

And this is why I wish that the Constitution had been explicit about leaving treaties.

 

[timewerx]

The gut sees all and knows all.

 

[zephcom]

And this is why I wish that the Constitution had been explicit about leaving treaties.

Turns out there are a lot of things the Constitution should have been explicit about.....

 

[Arcangl86]

Turns out there are a lot of things the Constitution should have been explicit about.....

I honestly think it's time we scrapped the Constitution and start over, but people act like I'm committing blapsmany when i say it.

 

[zephcom]

I honestly think it's time we scrapped the Constitution and start over, but people act like I'm committing blapsmany when i say it.

The people can call for a Constitutional Convention....

I am reminded of this part of America's Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Emphasis is on the crucial aspect of the document. It is the RIGHT of the people to rebuild their government or even to abolish it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Maybe watching our Kurdish allies die from the distance of a satellite isn't as bad as from aerial surveillance.

 

[zephcom]

Maybe watching our Kurdish allies die from the distance of a satellite isn't as bad as from aerial surveillance.

Trump has no allies. He only has puppets and potential scapegoats.

And right now, Trump is -us-. We have no morality and because of that we have no allies.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Gettin' closer.

The Trump administration is preparing to withdraw from the Open Skies Treaty that was designed to reduce the risk of military miscalculations that could lead to war, making it the latest major arms control treaty that the US will abandon under President Donald Trump.

An announcement could be made tomorrow, an administration source tells CNN.

The Trump administration has already pulled out of an Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty and has set out conditions to renew the last remaining nuclear arms pact with Russia -- the NEW Start Treaty -- that experts and analysts say all but guarantee it will not be extended.

The Open Skies Treaty is part of "a set of reinforcing documents which create stability and predictability in and around Europe," said Jon Wolfsthal, director of the Nuclear Crisis Group at Global Zero. "Trump and his advisers have been systematically destroying those agreements in part because of Russian noncompliance, but when you look at the Trump approach, it's 'tear it down and don't put anything in its place and at times, make it harder for people to put anything else in its place.'"

 

[wing2000]

...and in doing so, a weaker America.

IMO, Trump sees no value in any treaty. The very concept is foreign to his view of the world...

 

[Kentonio]

I kind of hope he just leaves NATO. It’d give Europe the shove it needs to set up our own multi-national defense organization.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I kind of hope he just leaves NATO. It’d give Europe the shove it needs to set up our own multi-national defense organization.

On one hand, there's a argument to be made that that would be a good thing. I appreciate that that whole structure was designed to allow us to project our interests, but I question whether it's worth the cost - i.e. if we didn't have the ability to so effectively project our interests, how many fewer wars would we have entered/started?

OTOH, I'd like the process of pushing that shift to be less oafish than what we've got now.

 

[Kentonio]

On one hand, there's a argument to be made that that would be a good thing. I appreciate that that whole structure was designed to allow us to project our interests, but I question whether it's worth the cost - i.e. if we didn't have the ability to so effectively project our interests, how many fewer wars would we have entered/started?

OTOH, I'd like the process of pushing that shift to be less oafish than what we've got now.

Yeah absolutely. My reason for wanting it is because I think it's just way past the point of healthiness now for both Europe and America. It keeps Europe in a subservient position, gives Americans an inflated sense of their own ability to project power, and is just a temporary fix that has lasted far too long.

I think the world would be a happier, safer place with an European superpower able to act as a friend and if necessary intermediary or counterbalance between the US, China and Russia.

 

[wing2000]

Yeah absolutely. My reason for wanting it is because I think it's just way past the point of healthiness now for both Europe and America. It keeps Europe in a subservient position, gives Americans an inflated sense of their own ability to project power, and is just a temporary fix that has lasted far too long.

I think the world would be a happier, safer place with an European superpower able to act as a friend and if necessary intermediary or counterbalance between the US, China and Russia.

I question whether the European countries could ever act as a "European superpower" - politically. And from a practical matter, the US today provides much (if not all) of the command and control military coordination that is necessary for any military operation...some country would need to fill that role if US were to leave NATO.

I do support the notion that Europe should be carrying more of the security burden, that for the last 70+ years, has been carried disproportionately by the US. On this point I do agree with the Trump administration (while disagreeing with Trump's methods). However, while Trump preaches military disengagement from the world, he continues to push INCREASED defense budgets presumably for a smaller American military mission. We as a nation can no longer afford our defense budget. As this pandemic demonstrated, our country is vulnerable in many areas that need investment...

 

[Kentonio]

I question whether the European countries could ever act as a "European superpower" - politically. And from a practical matter, the US today provides much (if not all) of the command and control military coordination that is necessary for any military operation...some country would need to fill that role if US were to leave NATO.

The EU has been damaged by the Corona pandemic but its direction of travel is towards closer and closer integration. If it survives the after effects of the pandemic (and it should) then its not inconceivable to see some form of federalized superstate in the future. Losing NATO would actually be hugely useful in terms of helping push that movement forward.

I do support the notion that Europe should be carrying more of the security burden, that for the last 70+ years, has been carried disproportionately by the US. On this point I do agree with the Trump administration (while disagreeing with Trump's methods). However, while Trump preaches military disengagement from the world, he continues to push INCREASED defense budgets presumably for a smaller American military mission. We as a nation can no longer afford our defense budget. As this pandemic demonstrated, our country is vulnerable in many areas that need investment...

You've been paying for a huge amount of international power basically, and no its not sustainable. The real question is whether US voters understand that their funding of the European defense burden has actually been providing them with vast benefits, and are prepared to lose those benefits if they stop paying. I'd love to think they understand that and are willing to accept the change, but I suspect the false idea that they've just been paying for Europe's defense as some kind of crazy charity is too deeply embedded, and they'll react very badly when they realize they have to start acting as an equal partner to the big European countries once they're not paying the bills any more.

The UK is a good trial balloon of this with Brexit, and so far its been strikingly clear that most Brits think they can leave and just still control things.

 

[Arcangl86]

I question whether the European countries could ever act as a "European superpower" - politically. And from a practical matter, the US today provides much (if not all) of the command and control military coordination that is necessary for any military operation...some country would need to fill that role if US were to leave NATO.

I do support the notion that Europe should be carrying more of the security burden, that for the last 70+ years, has been carried disproportionately by the US. On this point I do agree with the Trump administration (while disagreeing with Trump's methods). However, while Trump preaches military disengagement from the world, he continues to push INCREASED defense budgets presumably for a smaller American military mission. We as a nation can no longer afford our defense budget. As this pandemic demonstrated, our country is vulnerable in many areas that need investment...

France has been majorly stepping up in NATO the past few years. Germany has also been getting really invested in created multinational forces under their command. The C&C capabilities we provide are nice but not irreplacable.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The US on Sunday formally exited the decades-old Open Skies Treaty, some six months after President Donald Trump first announced the decision, according to the State Department.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The US on Sunday formally exited the decades-old Open Skies Treaty, some six months after President Donald Trump first announced the decision, according to the State Department.

One more thing on President Biden's list of things to fix.

On the plus side, Donald "leaving" anything might be a good sign... he needs the practice.