True Salvation

[Mister_Al]

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

We are saved by faith in the Son of God.


What of faith, grace and repentance? Are they not needed? The bible teaches that salvation hinges on our response to the gospel message of Jesus in faith (although a faith that can only be produced in us by His grace).

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptised and yet he was saved. (I'm not saying that baptism is not important just that it is not essential to ones salvation; faith is).

When Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise He wasn't giving him salvation, He was merely stating a fact. We all should know that there was no salvation until after Jesus died and arose from the grave.

If Jesus could grant salvation to the thief then He could grant salvation to everyone and that means there wouldn't be any need for Him to have died. He could have just proclaimed that everyone on the Earth, forever, was now saved and went back into the Heavens, but salvation doesn't work like that.

Everyone that is in the family line of Adam is condemned because of Adam's sin and the only way to be saved is to get into a family line that isn't condemned. That's why Jesus is called the SECOND Adam, because He came as a beginning of a new family line that was not under God's condemnation from sin.

The only way that a person can change family lines is by marriage:

Ephesians 5:31-32 (Amplified Bible)

31) For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

32) This mystery is very great, but I speak concerning [the relation of] Christ and the church.

When my wife and I got married we became one flesh and her last name changed to mine because she was no longer in that family line but through her union with me (the head) she was now in my family line. Otherwise our children would have no specific blood line.

Water baptism (in the name of Jesus) is the time when the Holy Spirit joins you to Christ, it is your marriage ceremony with Jesus and afterward you are said to be born again because you are now in a new family line, and a child of God and no longer in Adam.

A prayer can't put you into another family line. asking Jesus to come into your heart is similar to asking your girlfriend/boyfriend to come and move in with you without getting married. You still love them, and want to be faithful to them, but there is no way for a marital union without the marriage ceremony and your relationship would be sinful.

I hope this helps,

Alan

 

[Mister_Al]

Thank you Alan. One more thing, do you think it is possible to have thought you were baptized into Christ but not to have actually been baptized into Christ? Or do you think that if you truly trust Jesus Christ and follow Him, as you have already said, to believe the Bible over your fellow man, is it possible to receive this baptism into Christ by virtue of your own faith despite that the person who baptized you may not be representing the same Holy Spirit that Jesus represents?

The reason I ask is because there seem to be an aweful lot of people who profess to be Christian, but they don't come across as being very good examples of Jesus' likeness. And when doing a search for "false baptism", I came across this article: The High Spiritual Cost of a False Water Baptism . Do you think this story is true, that these people did in fact receive a curse when they were expecting a blessing?

I am aware of the verse 1 John 4:1-6 which shows us how to identify the ones who aren't of God, and I understand that if you ask such a person whether they believe Jesus came in the flesh and rose again, they may be inclined to lie and say yes, being such the deceiver they are. I understand that these people will never confess this of their own accord though, because this is not the sort of message they want to promote.

So thank you for showing me those verses, they have helped to answer the question I had, but there is still a little bit left: how does one know that the spirit they have come to know to be Jesus is really Jesus and not a spirit of the occult, or is it not even possible because those spirits will never confess themselves to be Jesus but will gain a person's trust some other way? Thank you for your help with this.

Yes, it is possible that a person can be baptized and not get saved. If a person isn't baptized "in the name of Jesus" (aka calling on His name) by having the name of the Lord invoked over them during their baptism then the only thing that has happened is that the person just got wet. Also the person doing the Baptism must be a Christian in order to be able to represent God, and the water has to be living water, so being baptized in a creek would work.

My wife, and I, baptized each other in the ocean the last time we went to Florida, sorta like renewing our wedding vows with the Lord.

To answer your other question, if you asked God for a piece of bread, would He give you a stone? If you are baptized in the name of Jesus like the Bible says to do then you will have exactly what the Bible says you'll have.

Also the trying of spirits in I John 4 is instructions on trying the spirit behind the teaching being given to you. If the antichrist is behind the teaching it will lead you away from the truth of salvation while the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth of salvation.

1 John 4:1-3 (Amplified Bible)

1 John 4) 1BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

2) By this you may know (perceive and recognize) the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges and confesses [the fact] that Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [actually] has become man and has come in the flesh is of God [has God for its source];

3) And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would annul, destroy, sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world.


The devil will always try to get you to believe his lie, but the Holy Spirit will always show you (at some point) what the truth is in a way that you can be able to understand it.

Be Blessed,

Alan

 

[JesusnamefollowerofChrist]

not all can be saved then

 

[Mister_Al]

not all can be saved then

Yes, all can be saved. God is able to provide everything needed for a person that believes to be saved.

Blessings,

Alan

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

A prayer can't put you into another family line. asking Jesus to come into your heart is similar to asking your girlfriend/boyfriend to come and move in with you without getting married. You still love them, and want to be faithful to them, but there is no way for a marital union without the marriage ceremony and your relationship would be sinful.

I would like to know what you think of this verse: "For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13) and this one: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

In these two verses it says that 1. we are saved through faith alone. 2. If we call on the Lord He will save us.

These two verses represent the most direct commands of how we can be saved, why do you dispute this?

When Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he would be with Him in paradise He wasn't giving him salvation, He was merely stating a fact. We all should know that there was no salvation until after Jesus died and arose from the grave.

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong about this, I will start by saying that the bible makes clear that God saves by our faith in Him, that He accounts us righteous by our faith in Jesus alone (although you would probably disagree).

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

Jesus says in John 8:56-58 that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Abraham was justified by faith by looking to the coming of the promised Messiah, God promised Abraham that through him (his Seed) all the nations will be blessed, Abraham believed God, in essence he believed in the future Messiah through his seed, God accounted him righteous for this faith in His Son.

The Bible makes this clear, so if God says that all of the Old Testament saints were saved through faith in the future coming of the Messiah how than can you say that the man on the cross looking forward to Jesus being risen from the dead and being declared Lord could not be saved? Jesus said "you will be with me in paradise." That means heaven, Jesus accounted the thief righteous for the faith he had in him, even without baptism.

Faith is what saves us my friend:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1-2)

Speaking of Abraham and us:

"This is why 'it was credited to him as righteousness.' The words 'it was credited to him' were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." (Romans 4:22-25)


Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us, baptism is a outward sign of this salvation, but to say that baptism alone saves us is a perversion of the gospel and is unbiblical. Actually invoking it as a prerequisite to salvation by faith alone is to institute a work into salvation which Paul specifically warned of:

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded . By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:27-28)

I think my friend you need to rethink your position on this or are you ready to condemn all the Old Testament saints because of you position.

 

[oi_antz]

I would like to know what you think of this verse: "For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13) and this one: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

In these two verses it says that 1. we are saved through faith alone. 2. If we call on the Lord He will save us.

These two verses represent the most direct commands of how we can be saved, why do you dispute this?

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong about this, I will start by saying that the bible makes clear that God saves by our faith in Him, that He accounts us righteous by our faith in Jesus alone (although you would probably disagree).

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

Jesus says in John 8:56-58 that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Abraham was justified by faith by looking to the coming of the promised Messiah, God promised Abraham that through him (his Seed) all the nations will be blessed, Abraham believed God, in essence he believed in the future Messiah through his seed, God accounted him righteous for this faith in His Son.

The Bible makes this clear, so if God says that all of the Old Testament saints were saved through faith in the future coming of the Messiah how than can you say that the man on the cross looking forward to Jesus being risen from the dead and being declared Lord could not be saved? Jesus said "you will be with me in paradise." That means heaven, Jesus accounted the thief righteous for the faith he had in him, even without baptism.

Faith is what saves us my friend:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1-2)

Speaking of Abraham and us:

"This is why 'it was credited to him as righteousness.' The words 'it was credited to him' were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." (Romans 4:22-25)

Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us, baptism is a outward sign of this salvation, but to say that baptism alone saves us is a perversion of the gospel and is unbiblical. Actually invoking it as a prerequisite to salvation by faith alone is to institute a work into salvation which Paul specifically warned of:

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded . By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:27-28)

I think my friend you need to rethink your position on this or are you ready to condemn all the Old Testament saints because of you position.

Thanks for explaining that, I do hold the same opinion, and had also thought of the thief on the cross for an example. But I do have to wonder, what of those who have faith in Jesus but choose not to be baptized, at what point do they jeopardize their salvation by refusing to comply with God's requirements? See in the following verse, baptism is acknowledge by Jesus as God's requirement, and we can see that immediately after His baptism, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove:

Matthew 3:13-17
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

But I do have to wonder, what of those who have faith in Jesus but choose not to be baptized, at what point do they jeopardize their salvation by refusing to comply with God's requirements? See in the following verse, baptism is acknowledge by Jesus as God's requirement, and we can see that immediately after His baptism, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove:

Jesus was baptised as an example to what we should and must do, I am not saying that we are not to be baptised, it is commanded: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

We are told to do this important act as a outward sign of the inward change of repentance and faith. But this is all baptism is, it is a external sign to the world of our new heart and life within. But if we try and institute baptism as a prerequisite and trumping of faith we institute salvation by a work. Faith is what justifies us in God's sight, nothing else.

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

Again I will say our faith depends on our faith in God's grace, salvation is a gift not a work.

 

[oi_antz]

Jesus was baptised as an example to what we should and must do, I am not saying that we are not to be baptised, it is commanded: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

We are told to do this important act as a outward sign of the inward change of repentance and faith. But this is all baptism is, it is a external sign to the world of our new heart and life within. But if we try and institute baptism as a prerequisite and trumping of faith we institute salvation by a work. Faith is what justifies us in God's sight, nothing else.

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

Again I will say our faith depends on our faith in God's grace, salvation is a gift not a work.

Hmmm, in these examples it is shown that the Holy Spirit is received at the time of baptism, this does tend to indicate that receiving the Holy Spirit is not necessarily required in order to be saved, but if we are to live according to His will we do need to receive His Holy Spirit. So, I wonder if someone who has truly found their faith in Jesus and is thus saved, can deny baptism when they become aware of the gift it brings?

 

[Mister_Al]

I would like to know what you think of this verse: "For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13) and this one: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

In these two verses it says that 1. we are saved through faith alone. 2. If we call on the Lord He will save us.

These two verses represent the most direct commands of how we can be saved, why do you dispute this?



I'm sorry but you are completely wrong about this, I will start by saying that the bible makes clear that God saves by our faith in Him, that He accounts us righteous by our faith in Jesus alone (although you would probably disagree).

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:3)

Jesus says in John 8:56-58 that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Abraham was justified by faith by looking to the coming of the promised Messiah, God promised Abraham that through him (his Seed) all the nations will be blessed, Abraham believed God, in essence he believed in the future Messiah through his seed, God accounted him righteous for this faith in His Son.

The Bible makes this clear, so if God says that all of the Old Testament saints were saved through faith in the future coming of the Messiah how than can you say that the man on the cross looking forward to Jesus being risen from the dead and being declared Lord could not be saved? Jesus said "you will be with me in paradise." That means heaven, Jesus accounted the thief righteous for the faith he had in him, even without baptism.

Faith is what saves us my friend:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1-2)

Speaking of Abraham and us:

"This is why 'it was credited to him as righteousness.' The words 'it was credited to him' were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." (Romans 4:22-25)


Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us, baptism is a outward sign of this salvation, but to say that baptism alone saves us is a perversion of the gospel and is unbiblical. Actually invoking it as a prerequisite to salvation by faith alone is to institute a work into salvation which Paul specifically warned of:

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded . By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:27-28)

I think my friend you need to rethink your position on this or are you ready to condemn all the Old Testament saints because of you position.

First of all let me point out that there were not any Old Testament Saints. A saint is a born again Christian and the people in the Old Testament only had the promise of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Also, I never said that baptism saved anyone, Jesus saves Us. However , without baptism you don't have any part in Christ since it is what allows you to enter God's family. Why do you think we are called the "Bride of Christ?" If you're a bride there has to be a wedding and, therefore, a marital union.

"Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us, baptism is a outward sign of this salvation, but to say that baptism alone saves us is a perversion of the gospel and is unbiblical."

1 Peter 3:21 (New International Version, ©2010)

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

"I would like to know what you think of this verse: "For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)"

To Call on the name of the Lord means to invoke His name over you at the time of your baptism (aka baptized in the name).

Acts 22:16 (Amplified Bible)

16) And now, why do you delay? Rise and be baptized, and by calling upon His name, wash away your sins.

Remember, faith without works is dead. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God and don't join in a union with Him to enter God's family line then your faith is worthless. That's like believing that Donald Trump has enough money to support you but you cant spend any of it because you're not in his family. But, if you marry him you can spend as much of it as you want. Just believing does nothing, but acting on your faith is everything.

James 2:19 (New International Version, ©2010)

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

I doubt that a single demon will get saved by its faith.

As far as Abraham is concerned, there was no Law yet given to Israel (not for another 430 years) to provide a measure of righteousness before God, so God said he was righteous before Him by his faith. However, when Abraham died he went to hell like everyone else--please research "Abraham's bosom."

The thief on the cross also went to hell when he died, as did Jesus. But Jesus had no sin (from Adam) and satan had no claim to Him.

John 14:30 (Amplified Bible)

30) I will not talk with you much more, for the prince (evil genius, ruler) of the world is coming. And he has no claim on Me. [He has nothing in common with Me; there is nothing in Me that belongs to him, and he has no power over Me.]

He liberated the captives and set them free. The other thief that died with Jesus also went to heaven, not because of his faith but because he was a Jew and in covenant with God.


You can throw all the "just believe" scriptures you want to at me but it won't change the fact that if you aren't in Christ you will go to hell when you die. the people 2000 years ago knew what these Scriptures meant and, believe me, it doesn't mean to just sit around talking about how much you believe.

If baptism is just an outward sign then please show me in the Bible where it says so, and please use the Scripture(s) in context.

When you get to heaven you won't be able to argue the scriptures with God like you are doing with me here. God won't listen to you. So if you feel like all you have to do is believe then that's up to you. Just think for a minute, is it worth going to hell just to try and prove you're right and I'm wrong. Or maybe it's worth going to hell to keep from getting wet.

Matthew 7:21-23 (Amplified Bible)

21)Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

22) Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

23) And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

I'd be willing to bet that these people in the above scripture believed in Jesus.

Here's a link to an article on baptism if you'd like to read it:

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/mikveh.html


Best wishes,

Alan

 

[Mister_Al]

Jesus was baptised as an example to what we should and must do, I am not saying that we are not to be baptised, it is commanded: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

We are told to do this important act as a outward sign of the inward change of repentance and faith. But this is all baptism is, it is a external sign to the world of our new heart and life within. But if we try and institute baptism as a prerequisite and trumping of faith we institute salvation by a work. Faith is what justifies us in God's sight, nothing else.

"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

Again I will say our faith depends on our faith in God's grace, salvation is a gift not a work.

Jesus was Baptized because it was required by the Law for all those about to enter the Priesthood, then He was anointed (by the Holy Spirit), and later the blood of the sacrifice was applied.

Also, you receive the Holy Spirit when you get saved. So, if you receive the Spirit when you're baptized and that's when your sins are remitted then doesn't that mean that's when you're saved?

Alan

 

[oi_antz]

So, if you receive the Spirit when you're baptized and that's when your sins are remitted then doesn't that mean that's when you're saved?

Alan

I have a problem with anyone making that decision, because what we begin to discuss is letter of law compared to intent of law, and I don't think anyone's right is to say that someone is or isn't saved because it is not our decision to make. We can certainly enlighten people when they are disobeying Jesus' commands, and that is about all we have any right or calling to do. So it is my understanding that those who have truly put their faith in Jesus have already decided to be baptized, even if they happen to not have acknowledged the importance of baptism at the time they decided to trust Jesus, because after all, life is a process of learning, and there is no guarantee that someone hasn't received the wrong impression of baptism due to what someone else has told them. And as you said in post #42, "but the Holy Spirit will always show you (at some point) what the truth is in a way that you can be able to understand it." - do you think God's mercy extends to forgiveness for those sins that we do not recognise to be sinful? I mean, if someone really loves God yet doesn't have the Holy Spirit in their lives, they will pretty quickly become aware of the need to be baptized.

 

[oi_antz]

Hey guys, the Lord outright told me to go and look at Romans 4:9. So take a look for yourselves and tell me whether you think someone is saved at the moment they are baptized, or whether they are saved due to their preparedness to be baptized. (Also, for anyone else reading this, it is important to remember that no-one is saying you don't need to be baptized).

Romans 4
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

First of all let me point out that there were not any Old Testament Saints. A saint is a born again Christian and the people in the Old Testament only had the promise of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Well what ever you want to call them, you do admit yourself that there are those who were justified by faith in Jesus Christ before He died and rose again and let me add without being baptised?

Before I go any farther, I am not in any way saying that a Christian should not be baptised, I was baptised, I believe in baptism as a institution of Jesus Christ and that it is a fruit of salvation. Actually the question we should be asking is not if baptism is what makes you saved but that if you are saved why would you not be baptised?

Baptism is not essential in that it adds to our salvation (our standing with God) in anyway, Jesus has completed this, He said Himself that "it is finished" but it does in a sense seal and complete salvation, because as you said you are being baptised into a union with the Lord. It is a sign of the new birth in you, but definitely not the only sign though by any means, there is also the fruits of the Spirit and repentance, but baptism is a very important sign to all and to yourself that you are serious about your calling.

And as I have just said if you are saved then why not be baptised? We are commanded to do it! But we must not confuse the truth of salvation by faith alone, by God's grace alone. We should not try to add a prerequisite to saving faith and the new birth that we are promised by belief and repentance.

1 Peter 3:21 (New International Version, ©2010)

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

In this verse you quoted, it says, if you read it carefully, that this water (baptism) symbolizes (you can read the word in the verse) the true meaning of what now saves us and that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, you see it was the resurrection of our Lord that saves us and when we get baptised we are saying that we believe that and want to be identified in this truth. But again it is a symbol and the act itself does nothing to save us but only for us to identify in Jesus' death and resurrection. It is a symbol of resurrection. But you can be baptised a thousand times, but if you have not repented and believed in Jesus yourself than that is nothing but an empty work.

The other thief that died with Jesus also went to heaven, not because of his faith but because he was a Jew and in covenant with God

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20)

What are you saying man! Are you saying that the Old Covenant saved? If so, then why did Jesus have to die? you are getting into dark territory...

As far as Abraham is concerned, there was no Law yet given to Israel (not for another 430 years) to provide a measure of righteousness before God, so God said he was righteous before Him by his faith. However, when Abraham died he went to hell like everyone else--please research "Abraham's bosom."

So now you have changed your position again, now Abraham is in hell because he did not have the law, but you just said that the thief went to heaven because he was under the Old Testament covenant with God. Did not God create the covenant in the first place with Abraham? Research your bible man, you are way wrong here!

You can throw all the "just believe" scriptures you want to at me but it won't change the fact that if you aren't in Christ you will go to hell when you die. the people 2000 years ago knew what these Scriptures meant and, believe me, it doesn't mean to just sit around talking about how much you believe.

Don't think anybody is saying whatever your talking about, we are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, this is the gospel man, the bible makes this clear. Why do you still dispute this???

If baptism is just an outward sign then please show me in the Bible where it says so, and please use the Scripture(s) in context.

I did this already in this very post in my second rebuttal, using your verse on the symbolism of baptism in 1 peter 3:21.

So if you feel like all you have to do is believe then that's up to you. Just think for a minute, is it worth going to hell just to try and prove you're right and I'm wrong. Or maybe it's worth going to hell to keep from getting wet.

I'm not going to hell my friend, I am saved by the blood of Jesus by faith. I do not put my trust in works, I put my trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ, you should do the same, and as a side note just because a brother has a disagreement with you, you should not condemn them to hell. If we cannot be civil, then lets just agree to disagree.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Thanks for explaining that, I do hold the same opinion, and had also thought of the thief on the cross for an example. But I do have to wonder, what of those who have faith in Jesus but choose not to be baptized, at what point do they jeopardize their salvation by refusing to comply with God's requirements?

The only requirement to be saved is that we believe and repent of our sin (both though are gifts of God and we cannot boast in either). But that does not negate baptism in any way, like I just said in my above post, those of us who are truly saved would not want to negate this important commandment because it is something that those who are justified in faith do (naturally in a sense).

If someone has been born again, baptism is the next thing that must be done, if you do not want to be baptised then I would question your salvation, because why would you not want to obey your Lord, and why would you not want to identify with the Lord's death? It is the symbol of salvation that all Christians should have the new natural (new birth) desire to do.

See in the following verse, baptism is acknowledge by Jesus as God's requirement, and we can see that immediately after His baptism, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove:

Yes, it is required in the sense that it solidifies our position in Christ by cleansing our conscience and external appearance (to the world) to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (but this is all in response to the inward change that was wrought in faith).

But it is not a requirement of salvation in the manner of speaking that it must be done in order to improve our position of righteousness with God. We are made righteous by faith in Jesus, His work is complete and we are told to repent and believe in Him. And yes we are told to be baptised but only as symbol to the grace that has been freely given to us by faith in Jesus.

 

[Mister_Al]

The only requirement to be saved is that we believe and repent of our sin (both though are gifts of God and we cannot boast in either). But that does not negate baptism in any way, like I just said in my above post, those of us who are truly saved would not want to negate this important commandment because it is something that those who are justified in faith do (naturally in a sense).

If someone has been born again, baptism is the next thing that must be done, if you do not want to be baptised then I would question your salvation, because why would you not want to obey your Lord, and why would you not want to identify with the Lord's death? It is the symbol of salvation that all Christians should have the new natural (new birth) desire to do.





Yes, it is required in the sense that it solidifies our position in Christ by cleansing our conscience and external appearance (to the world) to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (but this is all in response to the inward change that was wrought in faith).

But it is not a requirement of salvation in the manner of speaking that it must be done in order to improve our position of righteousness with God. We are made righteous by faith in Jesus, His work is complete and we are told to repent and believe in Him. And yes we are told to be baptised but only as symbol to the grace that has been freely given to us by faith in Jesus.

I really can't explain anything to someone that sees no difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament workings, and who is so stubborn that they won't discuss the scriptures intelligently. My teachings weren't to benefit me, I can see how God has worked salvation through Jesus and I'll not waste any more of my time trying to explain it to someone that just wants to prove himself superior over me.

Matthew 7:6 (Amplified Bible)

6) Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

Best of luck,

Alan

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

I really can't explain anything to someone that sees no difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament workings, and who is so stubborn that they won't discuss the scriptures intelligently. My teachings weren't to benefit me, I can see how God has worked salvation through Jesus and I'll not waste any more of my time trying to explain it to someone that just wants to prove himself superior over me.

Matthew 7:6 (Amplified Bible)

6) Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

Best of luck,

Alan

I see I am now a dog... Well I'm sorry that the discussion has taken a turn for the worst, I'm also sorry if I came off condescending to you, that was not my objective, I was just trying to have a honest conversation on how I felt on the subject of salvation, anyways peace brother.

 

[Crosssword]

No judging, insulting, or vain bickering now. You all know how the Lord feels about those.

 

[RobertZ]

if you do not want to be baptised then I would question your salvation, because why would you not want to obey your Lord, and why would you not want to identify with the Lord's death? It is the symbol of salvation that all Christians should have the new natural (new birth) desire to do.

What about someone who is struggling with assurance of salvation or is not sure if they are saved? I would like to be baptized but something is holding me back because of all this strong doubt about me being saved.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

What about someone who is struggling with assurance of salvation or is not sure if they are saved? I would like to be baptized but something is holding me back because of all this strong doubt about me being saved.

Hey Robertz! How are you man? long time no talk. I see that you are still having doubts, I'm sorry man you are still suffering from this.

I know one day you will come out of this very string in the faith, you know you remind me a lot of John Bunyan, you should read his autobiography: "Grace Abounding". His story reminds me of you, he also suffered from doubts for two years, he is also said to have had OCD like you and me. You should check him out my friend, I have been studying him lately, very interesting and inspiring to me.

In answer to your question I would say that you have basically answered it yourself, you said that you would like to be baptised but the only thing that is holding you back is your perceived unworthiness (this means that you are humble my friend, nothing more). We are all unworthy Robertz, but we are still loved by God that is the amazing thing!

I wish I had the humbleness that you have in the Lord, and as I have said you will come out of this one day, and I believe you will have a deep insight into the holiness of God and how much He hates sin and how in His mercy He allows us to suffer so that we can be ready to accept His grace in truth.

The only thing that is keeping you back from being baptised is your evil conscience, my friend your conscience is to be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb! And remember this:

"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." (1 John 3:20)

"let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:22)

Also remember that you are saved by faith in God's grace, baptism is not necessary for your salvation, it is only a fruit of it, you will be baptised one day and you do want it for yourself, until that day don't beat yourself up over it. You are saved by faith in Jesus, that's all that matters.

p.s. if you feel like it, start posting in the OCD forums again God bless.

 

[oi_antz]

What about someone who is struggling with assurance of salvation or is not sure if they are saved? I would like to be baptized but something is holding me back because of all this strong doubt about me being saved.

Hi RobertZ, nice to see you again. This is something I didn't know, yet I can see you have your heart right toward the Lord. I would encourage you to find someone who you are sure that knows Jesus personally (a good way to do this is to ask the person if they can speak on behalf of Jesus, and then you will see if what they say is honest and if you have doubt, don't trust them), and when you find that person who you know truly belongs to Jesus, you should ask them to baptize you in Jesus' name. I feel that this could be why you were struggling with your faith so long ago, that you haven't received the seal of salvation which as Alan has explained to us, gives you the confidence to know that you are under the covenant of salvation with God. All the best